Confused about 64-bit App vs 64-bit Kernal

[slamthecrank]

According to this recent SFLogicNinja (David Earle!) video, while running Snow Leopard, one should always run the kernal at 32-bit (as normal) - however, open Applications like Logic in 64-bit and even if I run 32-bit only plugins (like a few Waves plugs I have) they will run fine alongside 64-bit plugs without a problem.

 

Is that right? What about "the bridge"? (I've never run Logic in 64-bit since I still have 32-bit plugs that I use in every mix, so I'm rather confused about this). Any help in clarification would be great.

 

He speaks of this at 8:18 --

 

[David Nahmani]

Yes, it's right. As for the bridge, it allows you to run 32 bit plug-ins when Logic is running in 64 bit mode.

 

Logic Pro and MainStage 64-bit mode FAQ

[CarlosUnderground]

Speaking of The Ninja. Is he on this board? Being stealth I imagine.

[David Nahmani]

Speaking of The Ninja. Is he on this board? Being stealth I imagine.

 

He's been here a few times, yes:

 

sflogicninja profile page

[slamthecrank]

Yes, it's right. As for the bridge, it allows you to run 32 bit plug-ins when Logic is running in 64 bit mode.

 

Logic Pro and MainStage 64-bit mode FAQ

 

Thanks, David.

 

Is there any detriment to having to use the bridge? If not, then I can't imagine why I haven't already jumped ship to 64-bit... although, I only have 4GB of RAM right now, and I've never had any trouble with 32-bit, if running Logic in 64-bit allows more access to the full amount of RAM, then I should start doing that right?

 

ps - glad to know that The Ninja has been part of this board. Between his videos, David's book (LP9), and this board, using Logic has been so much fun and very rewarding. Thanks for all your help, David!

[beej]

If you only have 4GB of ram, then the main point of running 64-bit, to be able to give a single application access to more than 4GB of ram is moot, and you might as well stick to 32-bit mode.

 

There are some cons of running in 64-bit mode, particularly if you have a whole bunch of 32-bit only plugins, so unless you need 64-bit or all your software is 64-bit, I'd recommend sticking to running in 32-bit mode - which is what I mostly do.

[Eric Cardenas]

...while running Snow Leopard, one should always run the kernal at 32-bit (as normal)

 

This is actually incorrect.

The 64-bit kernel has nothing to do with running an app (logic) in 32 or 64-bit.

The latest MacBooks and Mac Pros that shipped with 10.6 all boot into a 64-bit kernel as default. ( http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3770 )

 

The 64-bit kernel will mostly affect the interaction with other hardware and it's important to understand that there is hardware out there with drivers that will not support the modern kernel. ( Wikipedia: Kernel computing )

 

Having said that both my machines boot into 64-bit and I have not encountered any problem whatsoever with my peripheral devices.

 

Hope that helps.

[rone2him]

Is there any detriment to having to use the bridge?

The only detriment I know of is that you can only open one plugin GUI at a time, if you open a second 32 bit bridge plugin, the first GUI will close down...

 

32bit Bridge crashes have also been reported from time to time.

 

Note: all LP9 plugins are 64bit, and as beej stated, "if you don't have more then 4GB of ram installed on your computer, there is no gain in running LP in the 64bit mode, the 32bit mode will suffice."

[beej]

Note: all LP9 plugins are 64bit, and as beej stated, "if you don't have more then 4GB of ram installed on your computer, there is no gain in running LP in the 64bit mode, the 32bit mode will suffice."

 

And finally, in 64-bit mode, you lose some features that do not yet work in 64-bit mode, so there are some other gotchas that can catch you out.

 

So 32-bit is your best option imo.

[slamthecrank]

Is there any detriment to having to use the bridge?

The only detriment I know of is that you can only open one plugin GUI at a time, if you open a second 32 bit bridge plugin, the first GUI will close down...

 

That's exactly the information I was hoping to find - that's kind of a deal-breaker for me in that I tend to mix with several of my RennWaves/CLA Compressor GUI's open at the same time. Thanks for that info!

 

Note: all LP9 plugins are 64bit, and as beej stated, "if you don't have more then 4GB of ram installed on your computer, there is no gain in running LP in the 64bit mode, the 32bit mode will suffice."

 

Hmm. This is why I raised this question b/c there is so much contradictory information "out there" - for instance, the MusicTech "Logic Pro 9" issue has a big section on 64/32-bit operation, and it clearly states that Logic WILL NOT utilize more than 3GB of RAM in 32-bit no matter what amount of RAM you have. But opening the application in 64-bit allows all 4GB's (and much, much more) to be accessed.

 

A question posed to SFLogicNinja was exactly about this - and his answer was that this was the case as well. Also, several mentions on the GearSl*tz forum agreed that 32-bit Logic does not access more than 3GB of RAM - 64bit Does.

 

So, which is it?

 

 

...while running Snow Leopard, one should always run the kernal at 32-bit (as normal)

 

This is actually incorrect.

The 64-bit kernel has nothing to do with running an app (logic) in 32 or 64-bit.

The latest MacBooks and Mac Pros that shipped with 10.6 all boot into a 64-bit kernel as default. ( http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3770 )

 

Hmm. Also, the same contradictory information. It is, as far as I understand, advisable from Apple to reverse the new computers from opening in 64-bit Kernal if they are on OSX 10.6 - only 10.7 should be defaulted to 64-bit. The link you cited goes to a 404 page, Eric.

 

So, who has the definitive answer on this stuff? My inclination is to lean towards the writers who have direct communication with Apple (David and MusicTech guys) ... but that seems to be that:

 

- 32-bit Kernal in Snow Leopard / 64-bit Application is optimal and can fully access the 4GB of RAM instead of ~3GB RAM. Except if you'd like to open 32-bit plugins at the same time.

- 64-bit Kernal (obviously) in Lion / 64-bit Application is optimal. Except if you'd like to open 32-bit plugins at the same time.

 

 

Haha, so ... since I'm currently not having any issue at all in 32-bit Snow Leopard, and I like opening my 32-bit CLA compressors at the same time, I guess I'll stick to doing that unless I want to utilize more of my RAM.

[rone2him]

32-bit Logic does not access more than 3GB of RAM - 64bit Does

When I was looking at this Ram issue, some time back, one thing that I also noticed, that is overlooked, was the application footprint on Ram:

 

LP 32 ≈ 80MB

LP 64 ≈ 120MB

32 Bridge ≈ 90MB

Net increase ≈ 1.3GB

[as measured w/Activity Monitor]

 

Just another facet of the, overall, questionable equation I guess

[n6smith]

From what I understand.. it's not quite as clear cut as the quotes above, seem to indicate..

 

Strictly speaking, with Logic In 32bit mode.. (What mode the kernel is in.. doesn't matter as Logic is quite capable of running in both 32 and 64bit mode under either Kernel) You have the program space Logic itself takes up plus whatever Ram is left over for Plugins... up to 4GB.

 

The whole upper memory limit is, partially true until you take a look at certain plugins themselves such as EXS and Kontakt for example. In 32bit mode EXS can happily access whatever memory you happen to have on board beyond the 4GB limit.. Kontakt, if you turn on it's own onboard memory server, can do the same thing... so that hard limit as stated, is only part of the whole story.

 

Running Logic in 64bit mode.. allows everything to use whatever memory you have on board your computer.. Again, it matters not which kernel you boot up in... You get the same benefits when running Logic in 64bit mode.

 

The reasoning behind using or not using 32bit or 64bit kernels relates more to what hardware and drivers are being used... and as was said earlier.. some hardware and it's drivers.. will not function correctly (if at all) under the 64bit kernel and some hardware/drivers will only function correctly/optimally under the 64bit kernel.

 

Luckily most hardware/driver combinations seem to work fine under both kernels so it's not that big an issue as it might have been... but it is something people should be aware of.. especially if they buy a new Mac because all Macs these days boot up in 64bit kernel..

 

Finally, Snow Leopard works fine under the 64bit kernel.. Before Lion came out, Snow Leopard was delivered on the newer Macs, all of which were booting up under the 64bit Kernel so there is certainly no issue with doing so...

 

The issue is when people try to boot up older Macs (That normally boot up under the 32bit Kernel) under the 64bit kernel and their hardware/drivers onboard do not function correctly.. That is when the whole 32/64bit kernel thing.. really can cause potential problems.

[slamthecrank]

From what I understand.. it's not quite as clear cut as the quotes above, seem to indicate..

 

Strictly speaking, with Logic In 32bit mode.. (What mode the kernel is in.. doesn't matter as Logic is quite capable of running in both 32 and 64bit mode under either Kernel) You have the program space Logic itself takes up plus whatever Ram is left over for Plugins... up to 4GB.

 

Ok, but you see... at this point in the discussion, this statement of yours is not corroborated by anyone else (and please know that I'm not discounting what you're saying at all - it's just that I/we would like some hard numbers or cites from Apple, etc.). And, more to the point, the writers I was speaking of actually disagree with your assessment of how important the kernal mode is - with specificity to the Operating System Version; ie, Snow Leopard should not be booted into a 64bit-kernal for optimal Logic use (even though, as you claim, some of the later model machines came from the factory defaulting into 64bit). Lion *should* be booted (as default) into its 64bit kernal.

 

And, I'd also like to stop for a second and ask if some of you commenters watched the video in the OP? He goes over this in the video as well. Start at about the 8:15 time mark.

 

The whole upper memory limit is, partially true until you take a look at certain plugins themselves such as EXS and Kontakt for example. In 32bit mode EXS can happily access whatever memory you happen to have on board beyond the 4GB limit..

 

But, only if you have more than 5GB of RAM installed will this work in 32bit EXS.

http://bit.ly/sPcjZL

(Apple link)

Strange, eh?

 

Again, it matters not which kernel you boot up in... You get the same benefits when running Logic in 64bit mode.

 

Again - with respect to which Operating System your machine is using, it does actually matter. ... or so say the writers at MT, SFLN, etc.

 

Who knows?

[beej]

If you have 4GB of ram, then the operating system and whatever else you have running will be using a good 1GB of ram anyone just to operate in, so irrespective of whether Logic can potentially use 4GB or 3GB, it's still going to result in exactly the same thing on your system anyway...

 

Running the kernel in 64-bit mode gives a slight performance increase, and matters if you have more than 32GB of ram installed. Otherwise, the only real difference is that *all* your drivers for hardware and software that need to run in the kernel need to have 64-bit drivers - otherwise, you won't be able to use them.

 

For a while, very few things had 64-bit drivers, so you were better off leaving the kernel in 32-bit mode (which was why Apple machines back then defaulted to the 32-bit kernel, even if they were capable of running at 64-bit - to stop people complaining that their printers etc no longer worked on their new machine.)

 

These days, much more 64-bit native software is available, but you should always check the drivers for all the hardware you rely on before making the decision to boot to a 64-bit kernel.

[n6smith]

slamthecrank,

 

But, only if you have more than 5GB of RAM installed will this work in 32bit EXS.

http://bit.ly/sPcjZL

(Apple link)

Strange, eh?

 

No.. it actually confirms what I said... (Though I can see why you are confused because of how Apple describes it...)

 

Up to and including 4GB is addressable as normal under 32bit.

 

Above 4GB (Because there isn't anything like 4.2GB or 4.7GB of RAM as memory in modern Macs increases by 1GB increments so they say 5GB or more) uses the memory server facility built into EXS to address and utilize that extra memory... the same as Kontakt does.

[Eric Cardenas]

The link you cited goes to a 404 page, Eric.

 

That's problem with the Apple support site.

Hit reload, Command - R, when this happens on the support.apple.com site.

[rone2him]

Having said that both my machines boot into 64-bit and I have not encountered any problem whatsoever with my peripheral devices.

 

Hope that helps.

All this discussion peaked my own curiosity, to checking my early 2011 iMac (which is the system I use for Logic Pro only), and it normally boots in 32bit; so, I did the manual boot 64 thing and checked out how everything worked, and all runs fine (all apps & attached hardware, ie. konnekt 24D/Tranzport/MC Control)... no problems. Even though a few of the apps report [64-bit] Intel "No" in the "System Profiler" Application section

 

So I changed the default on that iMac, and will now run, optimally, with the 64 bit kernel

 

On the other hand my older iMac 2.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo won't even boot 64bit... which all conforms to most of what is being said here... from a practical viewpoint anyway

 

Thanks all for this discusion

[beej]

Even though a few of the apps report [64-bit] Intel "No" in the "System Profiler" Application section

 

Don't be confused about this.

 

There is *no* link at all between the *kernel* running in 32-bit or 64-bit, and *applications* running in 32-bit or 64-bit.

 

As long as your hardware supports 64-bit operation, you can boot into a 32-bit kernel and run 64-bit apps just fine, or vice versa, or any combination depending on how the apps are coded.

[n6smith]

+1 to Beej's comments..

 

One thing I find odd is that rone3him's 2011 iMac would start up by default in 32bit kernel mode. As far as i am aware all 2011 Macs be it iMacs/Mac Minis/MBPs and so on.. all boot up using the 64bit kernel by default unless that is changed by the owner.

 

So.. out of curiosity.. what is the model number of your iMac rone2him?

[rone2him]

One thing I find odd is that rone3him's 2011 iMac would start up by default in 32bit kernel mode. As far as i am aware all 2011 Macs be it iMacs/Mac Minis/MBPs and so on.. all boot up using the 64bit kernel by default unless that is changed by the owner.

 

So.. out of curiosity.. what is the model number of your iMac rone2him?

Yeah me too

 

Hardware Overview:

Model Name: iMac

Model Identifier: iMac7,1

Processor Name: Intel Core 2 Duo

Processor Speed: 2.8 GHz

Number Of Processors: 1

Total Number Of Cores: 2

L2 Cache: 4 MB

Memory: 4 GB

Bus Speed: 800 MHz

Boot ROM Version: IM71.007A.B03

SMC Version (system): 1.21f4

 

I only got 4 GB in that system, so it's kinda immaterial anyway, and I think the iMac 2.8 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo is older then 2011... 2009-10 I think.

 

So I changed the default on that iMac, and will now run, optimally, with the 64 bit kernel

Yeah! that is the way I'm gonna run my iMac 2.8 GHz Intel Core i7 LP setup... thanks for the confirmation beej & n6smith

[n6smith]

Those are the details of a 7,1 2007/2008 iMac...rone2him.. I meant the model number of your 2011 iMac... if possible? The one you said by default booted up in 32bit kernel... but works fine under the 64bit kernel...

[rone2him]

Those are the details of a 7,1 2007/2008 iMac...rone2him.. I meant the model number of your 2011 iMac... if possible? The one you said by default booted up in 32bit kernel... but works fine under the 64bit kernel...

Hardware Overview:

 

Model Name: iMac

Model Identifier: iMac11,1

Processor Name: Intel Core i7

Processor Speed: 2.8 GHz

Number Of Processors: 1

Total Number Of Cores: 4

L2 Cache (per core): 256 KB

L3 Cache: 8 MB

Memory: 12 GB

Processor Interconnect Speed: 4.8 GT/s

Boot ROM Version: IM111.0034.B02

SMC Version (system): 1.54f36

[n6smith]

Ah.. that explains it..

 

A 11,1 iMac is actually a 2009/2010 model and not a 2011 one... which is why it booted up by default in 32bit kernel mode.

 

A 2011 iMac is a 12,x model...

 

Thanks for helping me clear that apparent anomaly up...

[rone2him]

Ah.. that explains it... Thanks for helping me clear that apparent anomaly up...

My Bad!

[n6smith]

Oh.. no worries.. You probably bought it in 2011 prior to the 2011 models actually being announced and so, I would have called it a 2011 iMac too under the same circumstances!

 

I was just a little concerned you might have had an issue with your iMac had it been a 2011 model and yet it wasn't booting up in 64 bit kernel mode by default.

 

Real glad that wasn't the case!