Mono, Stereo, FX and Width, in Logic

[peasantpunch]

A few things i need to clear up regarding stereo in Logic 9 and, well, stereo in general i guess...

 

To make a mono sound stereo is it good practice to go ahead and use the stereo spread? Or is there a better way of doing this?

 

What is the main difference between the stereo spread and the direction mixer in Logic? Is it just that the direction mixer has the stereo equivalent of a pan pot? So, not only can you widen the stereo of the sound but you can pan the stereo sound within the stereo field?

 

I also wanted to know - sometimes its not clear with soft synths whether the sound source is stereo or whether its mono with stereo fx. I guess there must be a really straightforward way of determining whether an audio file is mono or stereo, right?

 

And - is it ok to use a stereo widener plug in on a synth without taking off the built in stereo fx?

 

Some of these questions might be a bit obvious but i'd really appreciate some pointers!

[fader8]

Are you asking these questions with respect to mixing aesthetics or for technical reasons? Hard to respond without context.

 

I also wanted to know - sometimes its not clear with soft synths whether the sound source is stereo or whether its mono with stereo fx. I guess there must be a really straightforward way of determining whether an audio file is mono or stereo, right?

Not sure what you mean here. A synth patch has stereo content if you've programmed the patch to have it, eg panned each oscillator, etc. As for determining whether a file is stereo or mono, look at the details in the audio bin.

[peasantpunch]

Thanks for the response. I guess what i want to know is whether a stereo spread is doing as good a job of making a mono source stereo as doubling it up and panning, and whether you can place a stereo widener on something such as nexus2, which has all sorts of built in stereo effects.

 

So i suppose the question is more technical than aesthetic in the sense that i'm concerned some of these great-sounding stereo quick fixes might build up certain problems within a mix. I have a variety of soft synth plug ins in my mix, some with impressive built in stereo effects, but because they're preset fx i don't know whether i should be cautious about leaving them in all in.

 

I know this is perhaps basic stuff, its just i'm fairly new to mixing and i just need to get certain things straight in my head.

 

I can't find the info on a files stereo/mono in the audio bin you mentioned. I'm obviously missing something here.

 

I guess simply putting a stereo imager over a track is one obvious way of finding this out....

[Audiogrocery]

What is the main difference between the stereo spread and the direction mixer in Logic?

The Stereo spread creates a "Dummy" stereo field from a mono or modifies an existing stereo. It uses a few methods to do that "Dummy" - like different EQ-ing of the L/R, Delaying the L/R etc.

For example - let's say you have a mono file of a violin and a guitar. If you decide that these instruments may layout well in a given stereo field during your MIX design you can try the Stereo spread which will spread both instruments in the stereo field (this will not pan the Violin to the L and Guitar to R - it will be just a dummy stereo).

The Direction Mixer can not create a "Dummy" stereo field. It is just an "Extra" Pan pod which be used as a regular L/R Pan pod or to control the stereo width from stereo to mono - (mono to stereo widening in not possible). For example the Cubase Pan pod has such modes...

So, not only can you widen the stereo of the sound but you can pan the stereo sound within the stereo field?

As I have explained above you can widen or narrow stereo ONLY, using the Dir Mixer and of course pan (the widened/narrowed) path to L/R. In addition you can pan a mono to L/R using the Dir mixer as Pre-pan plugin in some scenarios.

I guess there must be a really straightforward way of determining whether an audio file is mono or stereo, right?

If you do not trust your ears there are lots of Imaging/Analyzing plugins. You can insert one of them on the top insert slot of the channel strip.

And - is it ok to use a stereo widener plug in on a synth without taking off the built in stereo fx?

Personally I'd use other methods inc various stereo FX to design a good sound scape.

[CarlosUnderground]

I think Scandor hit on the most important point, and that's trusting you're ears. I just think you are over intellectualizing the matter. Trust you're ears! Take a break from mixing, than listen back fresh. It's should sound good, not make sense necessarily.

 

Cheers!

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I guess what i want to know is whether a stereo spread is doing as good a job of making a mono source stereo as doubling it up and panning...

 

No, absolutely not.

 

The Stereo Spreader pans different frequencies to the left and right speakers. You can see exactly what it's doing, and how the controls affect that, on its display.

 

I think the name of the Spreader has confused alot of people, it is not (like you find in the direction mixer) just something to widen the stereo image, it spreads the frequencies you set to the left and right of the stereo image. IMHO it can be a cool effect on some sources, but it is not generally a useful tool for merely widening the stereo image.

 

If you're worried about the stereo correlation of your mixes, check them in mono.

[peasantpunch]

Thanks guys.

 

So the stereo spreader takes a stereo file and spreads different frequencies left and right, whereas the direction mixer does actually widen the whole stereo file.

 

I'm still not clear about mono to stereo though. Scandor says that i can create a dummy stereo field for a mono sound with the stereo spreader, but Rev. Sleaze says that this isn't the way to go about turning mono to stereo, i guess because splitting the frequencies thins out the sound??

 

Is the best way to go about turning a mono sound stereo to double and pan left/right then?

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

So the stereo spreader takes a stereo file and spreads different frequencies left and right, whereas the direction mixer does actually widen the whole stereo file.

 

Yup. That's my understanding.

 

I'm still not clear about mono to stereo though. Scandor says that i can create a dummy stereo field for a mono sound with the stereo spreader, but Rev. Sleaze says that this isn't the way to go about turning mono to stereo, i guess because splitting the frequencies thins out the sound??

 

Personally, I found Scandor's post a bit confusing. I'm not sure what the term "dummy" means in this context, maybe it's a language thing.

 

The stereo spreader will turn mono sources into stereo ones, simply because it will make the content of left and right different. But, it is not the same as recording something in stereo, it can't mimic that, it's just an interesting effect as far as I'm concerned.

 

Is the best way to go about turning a mono sound stereo to double and pan left/right then?

 

Yes, but unless you change one of them it will still be mono because left=right.

 

There's some suggestions that will help with that in these threads:

 

http://logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=406932

 

http://logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=79020&sid=95f45efb7d62b99f398719f3b6813517 (this one's about "thickening" vocals, but all the suggestions could also be used for doubling synths).

 

One trick I sometimes use is to duplicate a softsynth, then apply the "humanize" function to the midi of one of the duplicates, as well as introducing a bit of random pitch with the synth controls. Maybe change a few other subtle things, then pan them hard L/R.

[peasantpunch]

 

Is the best way to go about turning a mono sound stereo to double and pan left/right then?

 

Yes, but unless you change one of them it will still be mono because left=right.

 

 

Yeah, from what i know putting some chorus on one of the two mono tracks is a good way of making it stereo.

 

...

 

This is basic, but when doubling up i presume you have to be sure you half the volume for each of the mono tracks, right?

 

Also, am i right and thinking the only real problem with creating stereo with two monos, is when you create a small delay between the two monos, which can cause phase cancellation when the stereo mix is played in mono? Or does this apply to doubling up and delaying two stereo tracks for stereo movement? I heard you get some sort of combing effect..

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

This is basic, but when doubling up i presume you have to be sure you half the volume for each of the mono tracks, right?

 

Personally, I output both to an Aux channel so that I only have to deal with one fader.

 

Also, am i right and thinking the only real problem with creating stereo with two monos, is when you create a small delay between the two monos, which can cause phase cancellation when the stereo mix is played in mono? Or does this apply to doubling up and delaying two stereo tracks for stereo movement? I heard you get some sort of combing effect..

 

It just depends how the peaks and troughs of the waveforms match up. Play with the delay amount until it sounds best to you.

 

For all of this stuff your ears really will be your best guide. If it sounds good, then it is good, it's that simple.

 

If you're concerned about how your mix will translate into mono, then stick a gain plug on your stereo-out and click the "mono" button.

[peasantpunch]

Cheers Rev. You've been a generous help.

 

One more thing - is there an equivalent to the izotope ozone multiband stereo imager for logic do you know? The ozone is a mastering tool, but do you know if its recommended to use that sort of thing on individual tracks?

[fader8]

One more thing - is there an equivalent to the izotope ozone multiband stereo imager for logic do you know?

http://www.crysonic.com/sindo.html

They're having a Christmas sale, too!

 

The ozone is a mastering tool,

Only by name....

 

but do you know if its recommended to use that sort of thing on individual tracks?

It's a plug-in, so you can use it as a channel strip. It's quite the resource hog, though. I'm not keen on it. You can do much better with individual plugs and have more control.

[michl]

Well, mono is a sensation you have when you record any signal with just one mic (or probably just have one ear). If you double a mono track on two separate tracks the only effect it has is: it gets louder. Though if you would shift one of the tracks a few samples you already can hear something like a phasing or chorus-like effect. This is how it all began in a way with "effects", when they started experimenting in the 60ies and how we came to all the effects we know now today.

 

So I would say the easiest (and probably most natural) way to get more "air" into a mono signal is to put a (stereo) reverb on it. The reverb will widen it automatically.

 

Real stereo is only possible if you record a signal with two mics in a certain angle.

Cause that is the way we hear...though I must say I am a huge mono-fan.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Cheers Rev. You've been a generous help.

 

Happy to help

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

So I would say the easiest (and probably most natural) way to get more "air" into a mono signal is to put a (stereo) reverb on it. The reverb will widen it automatically.

 

Good suggestion, panning it first could help the illusion, and if you want to get more in depth then creating differently timed early reflections in the L/R can complete the picture.

 

Real stereo is only possible if you record a signal with two mics in a certain angle.

Cause that is the way we hear...though I must say I am a huge mono-fan.

 

Hmmm... Not quite. We have fairly three-dimensional hearing. Binaural mic setups are a lot closer to how we hear than usual stereo mic setups.

 

Also, software synths very often are stereo.

 

Any signal with any difference between the left and right channels are, technically, stereo.

[steveastanga]

So I would say the easiest (and probably most natural) way to get more "air" into a mono signal is to put a (stereo) reverb on it. The reverb will widen it automatically.

 

Good suggestion, panning it first could help the illusion, and if you want to get more in depth then creating differently timed early reflections in the L/R can complete the picture.

 

I was perusing this forum looking for tips on adding air and space to reverb configs., (after watching a stunningly impressive review of a Lexicon 224 plug-in, I became interested in seeking a Logic-only equivalent).

 

Anyway, just wondering what the exact signal chain would be if I wanted to try a configuration like the Rev is suggesting here? Can't imagine how you can alter different early reflections in the left and right sides primarily, but would also like to be certain that i'm not misunderstanding how to 'pan first' i.e. use a post-fader aux. for the reverb, with the instrument panned right?

 

It's an old post. Is anyone still around?

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Can't imagine how you can alter different early reflections in the left and right sides primarily...

 

Easiest way is to output to 2 aux channels (left and right) with Platinum Verb on them, which has an early reflections parameter. You can also mess around with sample delays.

 

...but would also like to be certain that i'm not misunderstanding how to 'pan first' i.e. use a post-fader aux. for the reverb, with the instrument panned right?

 

Right!

[steveastanga]

Thanks a lot!

 

In the time between posting for clarification, and you replying, I"ve set up & experimented with a great little gospel organ. PANNING FIRST is the golden nugget that gets me where I want to be. It's been an invaluable learning experience, and thanks for your posts; both the original thread and the clarification have helped me a lot!

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

You're welcome Steve, happy to help

[steveastanga]

Just in case anyone's following along, I figured this might be worth sharing if you're wondering if you're over-cooking your pre-delays. I picked it up from an old report from Moulton Laboratories on the principles of multitrack mixing. It shows the science behind how much to apply:

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

That's a cool little chart, thanks for posting.