mainstage Live - the best backup in case of Quitting?

[marcperi]

ciao a tutti,

 

I know that bands like Toto, simply red, NIN, Radiohead, are using mainstage live.

I'm using it since since one year for 3 keyboards without any problems,

but once, only Once, during session mainstage quitted unexpectedly.

Permission were repaired, so actually until now I really don't know what was the reason.

What if was happening in front of thousand people?

I will not have any sound due to 3 master keyboards, and I will have to reboot macbook = 5 minutes minimum without any playable sound.

 

There is any way to be "safe" in case of unexpected quit during live?

 

I was wondering if 2 macbook with same concert will be the solution, but in this case how is the connection?

There is any other solution well known that you can suggest me?

 

It's quite urgent because after that "once problem" I'm quite worried about using mainstage live!

 

waiting your welcome feedback,

and...

 

Buon Natale a tutti

[mmm42]

I'm using it since since one year for 3 keyboards without any problems, but once, only Once, during session mainstage quitted unexpectedly.

Permission were repaired, so actually until now I really don't know what was the reason.

What if was happening in front of thousand people?

I will not have any sound due to 3 master keyboards, and I will have to reboot macbook = 5 minutes minimum without any playable sound.

 

I can't remember a case were permissions were actually the problem. Don't waste your time with them.

 

Rebooting is rarely necessary, just relaunching the app. With a lot of samples, this can take some time.

 

I know that large acts simply use cheap Macs (e.g. MacMini) and they have two identical setups (2 MacMinis, 2 audio interfaces, etc). If something fails, the technician switches between them and the show goes on. It's faster than switching a guitar with a broken string.

 

From talks to many technicans I also know that MainStage never crashed on them. I don't think that's because the software has no bugs, but also because they avoid AudioUnits and optimize their concerts to not push them too hard (e.g. a simple Platin reverb is usually just fine, Space Designer is in most venues overkill - you won't be able to hear the quality difference). And then they practice, practice, practice before the tour starts.

[marcperi]

mmm

2 identical setup..... but I cannot figure out how is the connection actually

[mmm42]

2 identical setup..... but I cannot figure out how is the connection actually

 

I'll see two options:

 

Because failure is so rare, it might be OK to just swap cables in that event. Takes a few seconds, but that might be OK.

 

Otherwise: audio/MIDI inputs go in both computers (via a MIDI splitter) and the audio outputs switchable between both. If something fails, you turn the switch and be on the other machine. Because MIDI goes to both, the same patch should even be active (if patch switching is done via MIDI).

 

Or a combination of both.

[thalund]

2 identical setup..... but I cannot figure out how is the connection actually

 

Otherwise: audio/MIDI inputs go in both computers (via a MIDI splitter) and the audio outputs switchable between both. If something fails, you turn the switch and be on the other machine. Because MIDI goes to both, the same patch should even be active (if patch switching is done via MIDI).

 

Or a combination of both.

 

With my band, I use a system exactly like this, although with two laptop. A midi processor (an ancient Opcode Studio 4) splits the midi and sends it to two audio/midi interfaces connected to the laptops running identical mainstage documents.

 

Audio inputs are also splits with simple passive audio splitters.

 

6 channels audio outs and a sine drone from a dummy MS channel strip are fed into this radial auto switcher:

http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/sw8.php

 

By default the audience hears system A. If this crashes, the auto switcher automaticly switches to system B - this works seamless even if during a song and even the sound of a key pressed is maintained.

 

One issue though: I'm still with MainStage 1, which is for some reason much more stable for me than Mainstage 2. I try to keep out of third party audio units and generally slim the doucument, but for me MS 2 (v 2.1.3) craches a lot.

If anybody has an idea to why this is, please share

[DolmensDude]

first thing to do if MainStage stops responding in live situation is hit the panic button, (Control-P), well unless you're providing backing tracks that go directly FOH.

 

after that, if audio playback (backing tracks, embellishments, or Milli-Vanilli mode) is necessary, then what Thalund has posted looks like the best solution so far.

 

It looks like he's using a sine wave generated out of system A, and should that signal drop, then the SW8 switches to system B. I'm not sure how he's generating that sine wave signal, and if using that totally solves the redundancy question. Just because a sine wave generated from a tone generator plug-in on one MainStage channel doesn't necessarily mean that all plug-ins in the concert are responding correctly. That sine wave would probably have be generated at the concert level, and would have to run 100% of the time, even between songs or portions of the song where you're not actually playing??? (prevent false switchover to system B?)

 

@thalund... that Opcode Studio 4... it's not actually connected to the MBPs? See other post, but I would think you could go over to version 2.2.1. Also, go 64-bit, you've got an 8 GB RAM machine, and you're able to address less than half of what you have there...

 

ping me via PM if you need to.

 

BTW, TOTO uses two MainStage rigs. on the 2011 summer tour, one went silent (between songs) in Amsterdam. It was the only time anything happened the whole tour. Tech chose to restart MS, but I think a Panic, or re-scan of MIDI via Audio/MIDI would have gotten em back quicker, but it was nowhere near 5 minutes, *much* less. I've seen this behavior, but not in a while - and it was only happening on my rig that had a Yamaha-specific USB MIDI driver, but even that rig is rock solid now (with the same Yamaha Motif as controller). Of course, current TOTO shows are all live, no Pro-Tools crap going on there...

[thalund]

after that, if audio playback (backing tracks, embellishments, or Milli-Vanilli mode) is necessary, then what Thalund has posted looks like the best solution so far.

I don't actually use any backing tracks - it's all instrument channel strips.

 

It looks like he's using a sine wave generated out of system A, and should that signal drop, then the SW8 switches to system B. I'm not sure how he's generating that sine wave signal, and if using that totally solves the redundancy question.

I am using a sine wave, generated by the tone generator plug-in within MS, on a concert level channel strip, it runs constantly on a separate output.

I am aware that the program could fail in a way that leaves the sine on while other plug-ins are gone. Never seen it, but in that case the switch can be done manually on the SW8 by backline tech.

 

@thalund... that Opcode Studio 4... it's not actually connected to the MBPs?

Not as a midi interface, it works as a standalone distributor / "firewall". Outputs from the Studio 4 runs to the MIDI inputs of the sound interfaces (RME fireface UC) connected to each MBP.

[DolmensDude]

Cool. Really like the thought you put into your solution. I guess the only thing I see as a single point of failure is the opcode device, unless you have two of those.if that device should fail, both systems wouldn't receive midi data. Having a second one to swap out would get you back up and running. Any midi splitter would do.

 

Still think you've done some cool thinking and planning on this. What's weird is, the only fail I've had during a show would have knocked out both systems, as MainStage flipped out when a local tech switched a an expression cable and sustain pedal cable. MS didn't appreciate the flood of sustain pedal messages and sent out a bunch of note ons that hung.... Was pretty ugly. Happened twice in a row, After the 2nd reboot I saw in the midi display that I was getting controller 11 where I was expecting 64 and vice versa. Was a cabling mistake at a festival, but I was inconsolable for a day or two thereafter... Simplified my pedal setup since, using an FCB1010. No chance of a switch up there!

[thalund]

> the only thing I see as a single point of failure is the opcode device, unless you have two of those

 

I do The spare sits right above in the rack

 

And you're right, if the failure is triggered by malicious MIDI it will kill both systems.

[DolmensDude]

Aha! You have TWO relics! Cool.

 

I've had two MBPs for prob 3,5 yrs now, one as a spare, no failover as you've designed. I'd have to swap. It's not been needed (so far). Artist friend of mine wants to do a theatre tour, I might be following your lead on this.

 

Any of your gigs/festivals in The Netherlands?

[thalund]

Regarding the relics, I just found out that Motu has re-issued their Midi Express 128 XT

 

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/back-by-popular-demand-express-xt

 

Like my Studio 4's it's a midi interface with standalone 8 x 8 merging/routing power.

Unlike my Studio 4's you can program it with modern software over USB. You don't have to pull ancient 68040 macs out of a cabinet

[DolmensDude]

Wow. I've got a Midi Timepiece AV from them in my studio setup. Amazing of MOTU is that they have current driver software for these things, ditto and old original MOTU 828 FW audio interface..

 

Classy.

[TREATMENT]

No one has mentioned this, so I will.

First off, performing/relying on computers is ALWAYS risky, sorry to say. And yes, it is only a matter of time before MS shits the bed in front of an audience. That is the BIGGEST excuse for practice: bomb proofing your setup.

As an alternative to a second Mac:

I run an MP3 player into an empty channel on my soundcard. On the MP3 player, I prefer to use interesting ambient sounds, with no beats. MS dies, I switch to the soundcard inputs, and we go off into the land of cool interesting ambient pads that I've designed that are each 10-15 minutes long. If you have other band members lined into the soundcard, you can open those channels, and band members can jam together while you reboot the computer.

TREATMENT

[DolmensDude]

the question here was never "how does the show go on while MainStage coughs up"...

 

curious though, your sound card, it's attached to your Mac? what if it's your Mac that kernel panics, do you still have sound? (you might not)

 

synths are in some ways just specialized computers... they really have so much in common under the hood...

[TREATMENT]

Gosh, I must be a complete idiot! I interpreted:

 

"There is any way to be "safe" in case of unexpected quit during live?"

"What if was happening in front of thousand people?"

"It's quite urgent because after that "once problem" I'm quite worried about using mainstage live!"

 

as meaning precisely that.

What I DON'T remember is debating whether a keyboard is actually a computer or not.

[DolmensDude]

@TREATMENT

 

You're not an idiot at all - you've got the most pragmatic approach - "do something" while MS recovers.

 

I've had MS fail once, sold-out show, during a DVD recording. I could not have felt worse - and resorted to 3 songs in "fake it mode" and fixing the tracks in post-production. (Even this is a solution).

 

One of the posters in this thread has sought out a way to have some redundancy using two systems, a failover unit, and a "heartbeat" detection that determines whether the failover system should be used.

 

His solution is the best thinking I've seen so far, but... there are "holes" or "vulnerabilities" that haven't been covered in even that setup - and... Among other things, only MIDI output generated by the Novation is routed to the failover system, and... the instruments/controllers themselves are not duplicated, so should one of these instruments fail, two MainStage systems may be there ready to work, but with no input...

 

I'm not arguing that synths are computers... I'm trying to raise the question "is a MS system inherently less reliable than the hardware-based synths that we think were so rock solid?"

 

I've architected nigh-availble computing systems for regular use in the hundreds of thousands, up to 2 million users. That is a discipline unto itself, and IMHO, since "availability" is limited by the weakest link and single-points-of-failure... I see LOTS of things in a live show that are single points of failure... and therefore probably not practical, although... given my live DVD recording horror experience, I do find what people are trying INTERESTING, even your solution.

 

So... if you don't mind... I *am* curious. You're routing other band members to your audio card and in the case of failure of your system, pumping some ambient mp3 recordings into monitors and FOH. Good, pragmatic, and falls nicely into "the show must go on" paradigm. Exactly what I would do... if I thought only MS itself could fail... and this is the part I'm curious about.

 

In my case, should MS quit, but the MBP further be okay, I'd probably be able to get sound in and out of my MOTU Firewire interface, but... Wordclock comes from the MBP. Is this also true in your setup? or have you done something differently, so that if it's the Mac itself that kernel panics, or... you need to reboot the Mac because something died in the MIDI processing at OS level... do you still have sound? There *may* be a solution for this, such as having the Mac slave to clock from the audio interface...

 

If you got this to work, I'd be glad to hear it.

 

Regards,

[TREATMENT]

michaelhuisman

Fair enough!

 

NONE of my MOTU soundcards (which I have been using since 1999) have failed me under ANY circumstances, which is probably the reason why I am so loyal. Interesting enough, MOTU's Digital Performer has never failed me either.

(Except in the case where I installed a cr@cked plug-in that didn't work.)

Mainstage on the other hand, crashes right left and center. I can own that a lot of these crashes are due to me being an idiot, but a lot of the crashes are due to something that I can only imagine as being "voodoo".

 

When ANY DAW or otherwise dies, MOTU's CueMix lives.

That has been my experience.

When the DAW gets rebooted, the MIDI gets fixed along with it.

Maybe I am blessed with luck, or maybe MOTU makes damned good products!

TREATMENT

[DolmensDude]

ditto MOTU - they have LION drivers for the original version of the 828, there's one in my live rig...

 

I don't get MainStage crashes anymore... but I guess I'm in the minority still.

 

I saw MainStage stop working between songs at a TOTO concert here last year. While the tech was restarting the MBP and MainStage, the crowd got an impromptu 3 minutes of guitar playing from Steve Lukather... In the end... it was actually pretty cool...

[thalund]

I now find MS 2.2.2 very stable, using this on my next tour.

 

One thing however just about drove me crazy when using a spare machine.

 

Opening my concert on the spare laptop MS prompts a list of "exs XXX instrument missing", to my surprise - i synced all the sampler instruments and samples folders in the library (both user and common lib).

 

What really bugs me is the lack of information:

1. MS doesn't tell you which patches/channel strips the misses were encountered. I have 50+ patches, it takes a long time to browse all exs channel strips in them.

2. MS doesn't tell you where it expected to find these files.

 

OK with the general dialog, but a professional media app should opt you to see a comprehensive report on what was missing and where.

 

I like to think that MS is a toy on the surface and a beast in the depth, i wish that the developers would always consider that there are people using MS just as professional as a film editor using Final Cut Pro or similar.

 

Just frustration, will file a report to apple when i have time

[Bigseal]

Hi, I'm finding this very interesting. I'm going to use two mac minis with Main Stage and a Motu sound card for live shows. The second mini is a backup in case the first crashes and I need a device to automatically switch from one to another if this happens. I've been looking at the Radial SW8 but I'm not sure if it is what I need as we don't use backing tracks we are all live and it is expensive. Main Stage is used for just keyboards and guitar at some places I treat the vocal with Main Stage plugins. Please can you advise me what else I could get. Edited March 31, 2015 by Bigseal

[thalund]

The main point is that you have important and ideally uninterrrupted sound from your machine. Backing track and/or live instruments.

 

The Radial SW8 is rather expesive yes. It switches in analogue sound domain, so for using that you need not only two computers but also two soundcards (so the systems become independent) which is not helping the budget either. The beauty is seamless switching with no interruption.

 

Moving the (usb?) connection of the Motu soundcard from one Mini to the other in case of failure will of course interrupt sound for a moment. A simple passive usb switch like this one could speed it up:

http://plugable.com/products/usb2-switch2

[thalund]

@TREATMENT

and... the instruments/controllers themselves are not duplicated, so should one of these instruments fail, two MainStage systems may be there ready to work, but with no input...

Regards,

 

Hey, just back in this thread - never answered this. All my instruments / controllers are dublicated. With spare units ready to go with dublicate presets. I know it's an expensive solution that of course isn't for everyone, but safety in these types of setups really come down to thorough testing and as much dublicate redundancy as possible.