Is There a Randomizer Object in the Environment?

[BWTFFAM]

Hi!

 

I've recently started using the Environment a lot. I Used to work with the Max/MSP Software back when I had PC. There was an object called Randomizer which was very useful. It would basically produce random values for anything. For example, if you listen to Radiohead's 'Go to Sleep', Jonny Greenwood uses the randomizer object to punch in random values to his delay time to get this really cool effect.

 

Does Logic have this Object? Is there a way to download extra objects, or even whole layers, for the environment, as you could with Max/MSP? There was a plethora of insane stuff you could download with Max/MSP: Infinite Reverbs, Saxophone-like guitar sounds, Random Delays, etc.

 

I do realize that I can get Max/MSP and use it as a plug-in, but why do that when Logic already has this?

 

Also, I have a proposal for the admins. I think the environment is one of the most untapped resources that Logic has to offer. But most people don't even notice it. I searched google and came across a bunch of topics that discussed it here, but they're all scattered around some 1500 pages of topics in the Logic Section. I think it would be a great idea to add a separate Environment section to the Forum Index, both for ease of accessibility and to create an easily-referable database for people to discover and start playing around with Environment.

[Jordi Torres]

There already is an environment section at LPH:

 

Logic & MainStage Templates and Environments

 

The environment cannot be expanded with external objects a la Max/MSP.

 

The transformer object allows you to randomize values.

 

 

J.

[Jordi Torres]

Oops.

[BWTFFAM]

Wow. I cannot believe I totally failed to spot this whole section. And here I thought I had all the good ideas.

 

Also, can you quickly walk me through how to get the transformer to randomize? I tried messing it but it looks very confusing.

[BWTFFAM]

By the way, since the section you mentioned is for templates, do the questions about the environment still go here?

[Jordi Torres]

Usually people post questions about the environment in the Logic forum, and if they have anything (environment-related) they'll like to share with others they'll post it in the environment forum.

 

Here's a transformer taking incoming velocity values and randomizing them within a range of 30 and 90.

[David Nahmani]

By the way, since the section you mentioned is for templates, do the questions about the environment still go here?

No, the file sharing forum are for posting files only. Questions go here in the Logic forum. Thank you!

[BWTFFAM]

Jordito, thanks a lot dude. Appreciate it. So I assume if I wanna make it randomize my delay time, I can set status to fader, then assign my fader to delay time? Well I just tried it and it didn't work. I guess I understand the semantics of it. Just have to get used to it, recheck my connections, etc.

 

Cheers for your help!

[Jordi Torres]

Plug-in parameters respond to and send "fader" events, yes. But you'd also need to set the Data Byte 1 to the corresponding fader event for the delay time parameter...and you'd also need something to "drive" the randomization.

 

But anyway, here's Rounik's Random Nature 2, I bet you'll find it interesting and it may also help you understand how some thing things work in the environment

 

Effect Randomizer V2 (Random Nature2)

 

 

Regards,

 

J.

[fader8]

BWTFFAM,

The transformer object is actually very logical, (although you may sometimes find it doing things that are somewhat illogical). Conditions are IF statements and Operations are THEN statements.

 

To translate jordi's transformer settings into english, IF the incoming message is a Note, with any channel, pitch or velocity, THEN what comes out of the transformer will still be a note on the same channel at the same pitch, but with its velocity randomized to values between 30 and 90.

 

Note that the randomization is static until you press play and the transport is rolling.

[ski]

I can set status to fader, then assign my fader to delay time?

 

The delay time of what?

[BWTFFAM]

Jordito, you are the bomb, bro! Thanks a lot. I looked at the link you sent me and it's actually exactly what I wanted, plus more I could never imagine.

 

But as far as I understand, the template in the link you sent me, basically affects the automation of whatever parameter I try to control, and saves it...But I want it to also work when I'm just jamming and not recording. Though if that's asking too much, the link you sent me is perfect.

[BWTFFAM]

BWTFFAM,

The transformer object is actually very logical, (although you may sometimes find it doing things that are somewhat illogical). Conditions are IF statements and Operations are THEN statements.

 

To translate jordi's transformer settings into english, IF the incoming message is a Note, with any channel, pitch or velocity, THEN what comes out of the transformer will still be a note on the same channel at the same pitch, but with its velocity randomized to values between 30 and 90.

 

Note that the randomization is static until you press play and the transport is rolling.

 

I think I understood most of what you mean. So basically, the transformer ignores whatever velocity I play the notes with, and gives it a random value, right?

Now, I guess for what I want to work, There has to be a beat and a tempo fed to the randomizer, something like, a command to produce a new value every 4 beats at 120 bpm, and then send that number to a delay plug-in. So the incoming message or the IF is a note (by the way can it not be MIDI?) and the outgoing message or then is a note in a different channel or out a Separate bus with a delay plug-in on it, and with the delay time value randomized every 4 beats, regardless of whether I play a note.

 

Ok, I shouldn't ever try to explain anything ever again.

 

Thanks a lot for a very well done explanation.

[BWTFFAM]

I can set status to fader, then assign my fader to delay time?

 

The delay time of what?

 

Is that really the concern? Ok, the delay time of a delay plug-in, of any instrument on earth, which is completely irrelevant to the hypothetical at question here.

[Rounik]

I can set status to fader, then assign my fader to delay time?

 

The delay time of what?

 

Is that really the concern? Ok, the delay time of a delay plug-in, of any instrument on earth, which is completely irrelevant to the hypothetical at question here.

 

Hi

 

Hopefully the "Random Nature 2" environment that Jordito linked to above has helped..?

 

Let me know if you need any help with it...

 

Cheers

[ski]

I can set status to fader, then assign my fader to delay time?

 

The delay time of what?

 

Is that really the concern? Ok, the delay time of a delay plug-in, of any instrument on earth, which is completely irrelevant to the hypothetical at question here.

 

For a guy new to forum, you nailed it buddy! Ask anyone here -- I'm pretty good at answering people's hypothetical questions with irrelevant questions.

 

sağ olun,

 

Ski

[BWTFFAM]

Hey Rounik,

as a matter of fact, I do. I've been spending the past few hours tweaking Random Nature to my liking. The one problem I have with it, is that the 'Learn' button, while very useful, seems to have a little problem. When you press it and then move a knob or a fader, it learns it quickly and easily. But when it's something like the 'Time' parameter of Logic's Echo plug-in, where you have to click on the value and choose from a list, or the grid of the delay designer, it doesn't seem to 'learn' it. Or sometimes, it looks like it's learned it, ie the 'waiting...' message disappears after you click on a new value, but when you press play it doesn't actually randomize that value. It's a minor problem, unless I'm doing something wrong, but Echo Time is precisely the main reason I asked the question to begin with.

Also, I tried to assign a randomizer to an external delay found in Amplitube 3 (opened as an external plug-in on Logic, of course) and it doesn't seem to 'learn' anything external either. I even clicked on View > Controls above my amplitube window, but it's just a bunch of faders, labeled Param 1-17 respectively, all set to zero, and none of them actually do anything, like they weren't even assigned to the controls found in the Viewer. Maybe I have to assign the knobs to the controls myself? In which case, how?

 

Thanks for your time and concern. I love this place more than my girlfriend, if I had one.

[BWTFFAM]

ski, I did not mean to be rude or nothing But yeah I re-read my initial response to you and admit that I sound bitchy, sorry.

I love all of you here.

[ski]

ski, I did not mean to be rude or nothing But yeah I re-read my initial response to you and admit that I sound bitchy, sorry.

I love all of you here.

 

It definitely came across that way. You must now pay the price. Please send me a quart of homemade cacik, pack it in dry ice, and send it overnight to:

 

Ski

c/o Logic Pro Help

The Internet

Earth

 

Now, here's why I asked the question... there are many different places in Logic where the term delay can be applied.

 

• the Environment-based MIDI Delay object. Unfortunately, you can't change its delay time setting using fader events or any kind of MIDI message

 

• the realtime Delay parameter (regions). The question has been asked here before if it's possible to manipulate this in real time, so... (Oh, and you can't --- at least not with Environment-generated data).

 

• Delay plugins. Indeed, changing delay time parameters (with automation enabled for plugins, and a track in Touch or Latch) can be recorded. This will generate fader events that get recorded to automation. However, those fader events will be different for each type of delay plugin.

 

Furthermore... within those messages is a channel number (just like MIDI channels, ranging in value from 1 - 16) and this number will change depending on which slot the plugin lives in in a channel strip.

 

You can find out what fader events you'd need to specify in your randomization process by one of two ways:

 

a) create a monitor in the environment and cable (connect) the output of any channel strip hosting a delay to the monitor. Move the control you want to randomize and in the monitor you'll see which fader event pertains to the delay time parameter. Note the channel and fader event number. Discard the value, as that will be what you're randomizing.

 

b) record some automation of the delay parameter. Then open the automation event list (can only be done via key command) and look in there for the fader events that correspond to the control you moved. Write it down, and then UNDO to erase it. I find this to be the quickest method.

 

HTH, now send me some cacik!

[Beer Moth]

Is it wise putting your addresss on a pubic forum?

[BWTFFAM]

 

You can find out what fader events you'd need to specify in your randomization process by one of two ways:

 

a) create a monitor in the environment and cable (connect) the output of any channel strip hosting a delay to the monitor. Move the control you want to randomize and in the monitor you'll see which fader event pertains to the delay time parameter. Note the channel and fader event number. Discard the value, as that will be what you're randomizing.

 

b) record some automation of the delay parameter. Then open the automation event list (can only be done via key command) and look in there for the fader events that correspond to the control you moved. Write it down, and then UNDO to erase it. I find this to be the quickest method.

 

HTH, now send me some cacik!

 

Haha will do.

 

And thanks. I loved that explanation cuz it sounded a lot like what I used to do in Max/MSP. Though I decided in the end to just get Max/MSP and use it as a plug-in for the stuff that Environment doesn't do. But yeah, I'll give yours a go tomorrow as I must be off to bed for another day of hard work ahead.

 

And yeah, again, sorry for my first comment. I hate being an A-hole on the internet. Specially in a nice place like this. But there's an A-Hole in all of us and sometimes it comes out. Maybe not the best way to put it. So, yeah, I apologize

 

Also, if anyone still knows why the Random Nature Template behaves weirdly when 'learning' a certain type of parameters, I'm dying to know how to fix it. Complete Explanation of the issue: a few posts ago in Page 1. Thank you all.

[BWTFFAM]

Is it wise putting your addresss on a pubic forum?

 

Only if it's not actually your address

[Rounik]

Hey Rounik,

as a matter of fact, I do. I've been spending the past few hours tweaking Random Nature to my liking. The one problem I have with it, is that the 'Learn' button, while very useful, seems to have a little problem. When you press it and then move a knob or a fader, it learns it quickly and easily. But when it's something like the 'Time' parameter of Logic's Echo plug-in, where you have to click on the value and choose from a list, or the grid of the delay designer, it doesn't seem to 'learn' it. Or sometimes, it looks like it's learned it, ie the 'waiting...' message disappears after you click on a new value, but when you press play it doesn't actually randomize that value. It's a minor problem, unless I'm doing something wrong, but Echo Time is precisely the main reason I asked the question to begin with.

Also, I tried to assign a randomizer to an external delay found in Amplitube 3 (opened as an external plug-in on Logic, of course) and it doesn't seem to 'learn' anything external either. I even clicked on View > Controls above my amplitube window, but it's just a bunch of faders, labeled Param 1-17 respectively, all set to zero, and none of them actually do anything, like they weren't even assigned to the controls found in the Viewer. Maybe I have to assign the knobs to the controls myself? In which case, how?

 

Thanks for your time and concern. I love this place more than my girlfriend, if I had one.

 

Hey!

 

Random Nature 2 certainly isn't the definitive word in an effect randomizer for Logic... It's designed to work with Logic's built-in plugins (those that send Fader data from the channel strip... so can't comment on Amplitube and controlling drop-down menus from within a Logic plug-in like Echo time - hmmm... good point. Never designed it to work with those. I wonder if they send out fader data... if not, then bang goes the ability to easily control them.

 

If you want to try assigning controls manually then you can connect up the channel strip to a Monitor object and when you move a parameter on a plug-in you should see a MIDI value being sent to the Monitor. Once you know the Event type, etc then you can control it. Check out Random Nature 1 (also posted in this forum's Environment sharing area) for this...

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=34215&p=177608&hilit=random+nature#p177608

[BWTFFAM]

Hey Rounik, Happy new year!

 

Thanks for the reply. It helped a great deal. I hadn't realized before that I'm talking to the actual creator of Random Nature.

 

anyways, I assigned my Amplitube settings using the monitor object, and saved it, which will be very useful in the future. Later on, I checked out Random Nature v.1 per your suggestion and saw that it actually has a monitor object built-in, which is really cool. Thank you and congratulations on a job very well done. I will scour the Environment section of the Forum for more of your templates very soon.

[Rounik]

Hi BWTFFAM, and a very happy 2012 to you too !

 

Glad to know you got Amplitube working well. Yes... I was going to include a Monitor object in RN2 but tried to make it more seamless - you know - something that, hopefully, would just work automatically... Anyway, glad you find it useful and if you unpack it and find ways to make it work better do post your results