Hamlet S. Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 As my music projects are getting more serious it's time for me to improve my writing and mixing space in what ever it needs (preferably with something I can take when moving to a bigger space further on). My room is oddly shaped, although I have to say that I have worked in worse sounding rooms. Maybe all those corners aren't the enemy I first though they'd be. The room is 2.81m high, 5.96m long and moves from 2.08 to 2.68m deep. I know the science of acoustics runs deep and dark. Any light on making improvements would be very welcome. Help me solve my Rubiks cube PICS REMOVED- NEW ONES BELOW Interestingly, when I record instruments/vocals in front of the sofa space they sound crap compared to the area to the right (as I sit) of the DAW. So I intend on using that space for my vocal tracking with an acoustic foam kit and a maybe thick curtain. Don't shoot me on the decor. She looks a lot prettier in real life than in sketchup 8) Update: I'm getting rid of the filing cabinets and possibly the sofa. These are the three positions I think it's narrowed down to: http://i41.tinypic.com/w7lndl.jpg http://i42.tinypic.com/289kirp.jpg http://i40.tinypic.com/k9tb0k.jpg I"ve downloaded Room EQ Wizard, but I'm wondering if my Neumann KM140 will be a flat enough measurement mic as it has a bump at about 9khz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamlet S. Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Bump Any feedback welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I would say to rotate your desk 90 degrees so it faces the file cabs and the couch end of the room. Then slide it back and forth from that wall to get most of the low end to cancel/even itself out. Use the room depth/length to your advantage. The room is really small and whatever treatment you but in for the low end is going to make it even smaller. You will most likely still have a problem with the low end even at low volume levels. You can research Diffusers, or the absorption values of 4" rock wool, or look up ideas from Ethan Winer. If you or someone you know can made portable baffles, then you wouldn't really have to mess up your room. You may have enough space to make a small vocal/guitar isolation booth for recording and if it comes down to it, look into a set of quality headphones and headphone amp. Also, there are some online sites that can give you a rough idea of where your problem frequencies will accumulate after you input your dimensions. Other than that, it is hard to give advice to give you 100% successful results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamlet S. Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I would say to rotate your desk 90 degrees so it faces the file cabs and the couch end of the room. Then slide it back and forth from that wall to get most of the low end to cancel/even itself out. Use the room depth/length to your advantage. The room is really small and whatever treatment you but in for the low end is going to make it even smaller. You will most likely still have a problem with the low end even at low volume levels. You can research Diffusers, or the absorption values of 4" rock wool, or look up ideas from Ethan Winer. If you or someone you know can made portable baffles, then you wouldn't really have to mess up your room. You may have enough space to make a small vocal/guitar isolation booth for recording and if it comes down to it, look into a set of quality headphones and headphone amp. Also, there are some online sites that can give you a rough idea of where your problem frequencies will accumulate after you input your dimensions. Other than that, it is hard to give advice to give you 100% successful results. Thanks for the feedback. I've got a high end set of headphones in the mail and my Benchmark DAC 1 is a beautiful D/A & amp for them. So I'll be able to close my eyes and pretend the room isn't there I think you're right about spinning 90 degrees. Although I may do it in the direction of the glass door, otherwise people I'm working with (and me) have to squeeze by the table every session. Diffusion and absorbers are definitely on the cards, I just decide to work out what needs to be made, and where it needs to go. Portable gobos are a good idea, maybe even hinged ones for a vocal booth. I have light asthma and take my air quality serious. And I intend on spending A LOT of time in this room. I'm possibly being paranoid, but I hope to avoid having any fibreglass in the room if I can. We'll see if I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Reid Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm with you on the weird room thing. I recently bought a house that has a room that I'm going to remodel and dedicate as my work office and studio... and it's also a weird shape (a squashed diamond..wtf?!). I've looked into using these on one or more of my walls, after I do the whole sound proofing thing: http://mioculture.com/paperforms/acoustic-weave-paperforms.html They're paper based tiles so can be removed if you want/need to in the future, and look pretty snazzy. Not cheap, but... Also look here for sound proofing: http://www.tmsoundproofing.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. V Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 You can use rigid fiberglass boards covered in muslin or some material that you can breath through. 4 inches is recommended for bass traps. (You can stack 2 inch thick unsurfaced boards together if needed). The really cool thing about bass traps is that they do their job when covering some corner angle in the room. By definition, this means you could just lean them up against the wall (floor/wall angle) for the easiest of installations. http://afarawayland.blogspot.com/2006/08/diy-acoustic-treatment-703-rigid.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/90422-owens-corning-703-705-vs-duct-board.html http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html Here's my space which is an L shaped room 14 ft by 10 ft by 8 ft (LxWxH). 4 inch thick bass traps. 2 inch boards for high frequency dampening. Now using Blue Sky vs KRK. The chair to the right is where my cat hangs out when I working. You might need to mouse around the image to see all of the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamlet S. Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 You can use rigid fiberglass boards covered in muslin or some material that you can breath through. 4 inches is recommended for bass traps. (You can stack 2 inch thick unsurfaced boards together if needed). The really cool thing about bass traps is that they do their job when covering some corner angle in the room. By definition, this means you could just lean them up against the wall (floor/wall angle) for the easiest of installations. http://afarawayland.blogspot.com/2006/08/diy-acoustic-treatment-703-rigid.html http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/90422-owens-corning-703-705-vs-duct-board.html http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html Here's my space which is an L shaped room 14 ft by 10 ft by 8 ft (LxWxH). 4 inch thick bass traps. 2 inch boards for high frequency dampening. Now using Blue Sky vs KRK. You might need to mouse around the image to see all of the details. That's a lot of absorption in a small space! Nice natural light too. Have you experienced any issues in air quality or irritation with the fiberglass in place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. V Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Just double-wrap the boards with muslin or material of your choice. They have been in place since 2006 without filtration issues. I used plastic piping to quickly make stands for the wall/wall corner bass traps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 That's a lot of absorption in a small space! That's the way it works. The low end will accumulate in those areas and the idea place would be a room without walls (outside with no external noise). The smaller the room, the more issues you will have at a given level of sound. The absorption coefficient of 4" wool will be the same in a small room or large room. Think of them like paper towels ... stick enough of them in the wet spots and let them do their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I used plastic piping to quickly make stands for the wall/wall corner bass traps. Did you run out of 2x4's ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Jackson Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 More sharing options... Matt Mayfield Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 You'll probably end up doing something more permanent that looks nicer, but you might find some useful ideas here, too: "Easy But Effective Acoustic Treatment On A Budget" viewtopic.php?p=289081 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Mr. V Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I used plastic piping to quickly make stands for the wall/wall corner bass traps. Did you run out of 2x4's ? I find cheap lumber with a gloss finish a very pleasing sight. Looks good at a glance. Wood also helped to reduce ground loops back in the days of hardware modules and processors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... shivermetimbers Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I used plastic piping to quickly make stands for the wall/wall corner bass traps. Did you run out of 2x4's ? I find cheap lumber with a gloss finish a very please sight. Looks good at a glance. Wood also helped to reduce ground loops back in the days of hardware modules and processors. Just funnin. I do wood working too and I still have all of my fingers. Besides, no one listening to the CD will be able to tell if your equipment is housed in wood, plastic, or metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Hamlet S. Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Here's what my first measurements are telling me: Listening position: http://i51.tinypic.com/35aw37m.jpg http://i44.tinypic.com/b8ofh3.png From the back of the room: http://i53.tinypic.com/i4iwiv.jpg http://i53.tinypic.com/33w9wk1.jpg My waterfalls look like they don't decay in time like others I"ve seen. Is that my room or am I doing something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... ski Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You asked above if your Neumann would be flat enough for taking room measurements. The answer is "no". If you're not using a mic specially designed to take acoustic measurements, forget about the graphs. Suggest your starting point be to set up as in the second picture you posted, and deaden the room as needed to get rid of any reflections that are coming off of corners or accumulate in right angles of the room's geometry. They should be easy to hear by simply clapping your hands in the room (especially at the listening and recording positions) and listening for ringing. Then worry about bass traps. You'll need them both in the front and back of the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Hamlet S. Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 You asked above if your Neumann would be flat enough for taking room measurements. The answer is "no". If you're not using a mic specially designed to take acoustic measurements, forget about the graphs. Suggest your starting point be to set up as in the second picture you posted, and deaden the room as needed to get rid of any reflections that are coming off of corners or accumulate in right angles of the room's geometry. They should be easy to hear by simply clapping your hands in the room (especially at the listening and recording positions) and listening for ringing. Then worry about bass traps. You'll need them both in the front and back of the room. The graphs were done with a Beyerdynamic MM1, a dedicated measurement mic. I have some acoustic foam panels, which weren't in the room when I did the above readings. They certainly tame the high mid slap back I was getting. I'll definitely be building/buying bass traps, I'm just trying to get deeper into the subject to expend my knowledge and to make informed steps on getting my room as good sounding as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... ski Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm just trying to get deeper into the subject to expend my knowledge and to make informed steps on getting my room as good sounding as I can. And to that effect I'll suggest that you dispense with the DIY room measurements/graph readings and so on, because unless you do it exactly right, any measurements you take are going to give you misleading results. Case in point: I had an acoustician analyze my room. First thing we did was plot the frequency response of my speakers in free space. Then we measured the frequency response of the room with the speakers back at the listening position. If you don't take that approach, your analysis won't mean much because they won't have taken the freq. response of your speakers into account. As a musician myself with decades of experience, I've come to the conclusion that there are two things musicians should never attempt... • doing frequency analysis on their own rooms • mastering their own tracks Anything else is fair game LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Hamlet S. Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 As a musician myself with decades of experience, I've come to the conclusion that there are two things musicians should never attempt... • doing frequency analysis on their own rooms • mastering their own tracks Anything else is fair game LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... shivermetimbers Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You have two situations: One is for recording external audio (vocals, guitars, etc) The other is for mixing (unless you intend to mix in a virtual studio via headphones). The common problem is going to be the room treatment. Since you are in a limited space and you don't really have the option of ripping out walls, your next choice is going to be speaker placement. Working with the room as is, the idea is to place the speakers somewhere that will give you an even balance of low end. Less bass in the corners, ceiling, floor and more evenly balanced at any part of the room. The second half of the issue is speaker location in relation to your ears and how loud you need to play the music. The further away the speakers are from your ears, the louder you will need to play it. The louder you play it, the more bass energy will be created in the room. When that happens, your mix will go bad. BBL, gotta run for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... shivermetimbers Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hamlet S. You have one advantage with this room so long. You should be able to divide and conquer the two issues of recording and mixing. Take some space opposite the door/couch end and partition it off with a wall (include a door and see thru windows). This will give you a room to record everything in and a room to mix everything in. The partition can be thicker than a standard wall and filled with more sound absorbing material. Nextly, your desk can be turned back to the original position allowing you and others to walk around. Your mixing room can be treated at the four corners and other troublesome areas once you have located them. Same with the recording room. Just a thought. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Archived This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies. Go to topic listing All Activity Home Forums Music Production Music Production Techniques and Gear My room has more corners than a Rubiks cube.
Matt Mayfield Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 You'll probably end up doing something more permanent that looks nicer, but you might find some useful ideas here, too: "Easy But Effective Acoustic Treatment On A Budget" viewtopic.php?p=289081 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. V Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I used plastic piping to quickly make stands for the wall/wall corner bass traps. Did you run out of 2x4's ? I find cheap lumber with a gloss finish a very pleasing sight. Looks good at a glance. Wood also helped to reduce ground loops back in the days of hardware modules and processors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I used plastic piping to quickly make stands for the wall/wall corner bass traps. Did you run out of 2x4's ? I find cheap lumber with a gloss finish a very please sight. Looks good at a glance. Wood also helped to reduce ground loops back in the days of hardware modules and processors. Just funnin. I do wood working too and I still have all of my fingers. Besides, no one listening to the CD will be able to tell if your equipment is housed in wood, plastic, or metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamlet S. Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Here's what my first measurements are telling me: Listening position: http://i51.tinypic.com/35aw37m.jpg http://i44.tinypic.com/b8ofh3.png From the back of the room: http://i53.tinypic.com/i4iwiv.jpg http://i53.tinypic.com/33w9wk1.jpg My waterfalls look like they don't decay in time like others I"ve seen. Is that my room or am I doing something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You asked above if your Neumann would be flat enough for taking room measurements. The answer is "no". If you're not using a mic specially designed to take acoustic measurements, forget about the graphs. Suggest your starting point be to set up as in the second picture you posted, and deaden the room as needed to get rid of any reflections that are coming off of corners or accumulate in right angles of the room's geometry. They should be easy to hear by simply clapping your hands in the room (especially at the listening and recording positions) and listening for ringing. Then worry about bass traps. You'll need them both in the front and back of the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamlet S. Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 You asked above if your Neumann would be flat enough for taking room measurements. The answer is "no". If you're not using a mic specially designed to take acoustic measurements, forget about the graphs. Suggest your starting point be to set up as in the second picture you posted, and deaden the room as needed to get rid of any reflections that are coming off of corners or accumulate in right angles of the room's geometry. They should be easy to hear by simply clapping your hands in the room (especially at the listening and recording positions) and listening for ringing. Then worry about bass traps. You'll need them both in the front and back of the room. The graphs were done with a Beyerdynamic MM1, a dedicated measurement mic. I have some acoustic foam panels, which weren't in the room when I did the above readings. They certainly tame the high mid slap back I was getting. I'll definitely be building/buying bass traps, I'm just trying to get deeper into the subject to expend my knowledge and to make informed steps on getting my room as good sounding as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm just trying to get deeper into the subject to expend my knowledge and to make informed steps on getting my room as good sounding as I can. And to that effect I'll suggest that you dispense with the DIY room measurements/graph readings and so on, because unless you do it exactly right, any measurements you take are going to give you misleading results. Case in point: I had an acoustician analyze my room. First thing we did was plot the frequency response of my speakers in free space. Then we measured the frequency response of the room with the speakers back at the listening position. If you don't take that approach, your analysis won't mean much because they won't have taken the freq. response of your speakers into account. As a musician myself with decades of experience, I've come to the conclusion that there are two things musicians should never attempt... • doing frequency analysis on their own rooms • mastering their own tracks Anything else is fair game LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamlet S. Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 As a musician myself with decades of experience, I've come to the conclusion that there are two things musicians should never attempt... • doing frequency analysis on their own rooms • mastering their own tracks Anything else is fair game LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 You have two situations: One is for recording external audio (vocals, guitars, etc) The other is for mixing (unless you intend to mix in a virtual studio via headphones). The common problem is going to be the room treatment. Since you are in a limited space and you don't really have the option of ripping out walls, your next choice is going to be speaker placement. Working with the room as is, the idea is to place the speakers somewhere that will give you an even balance of low end. Less bass in the corners, ceiling, floor and more evenly balanced at any part of the room. The second half of the issue is speaker location in relation to your ears and how loud you need to play the music. The further away the speakers are from your ears, the louder you will need to play it. The louder you play it, the more bass energy will be created in the room. When that happens, your mix will go bad. BBL, gotta run for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hamlet S. You have one advantage with this room so long. You should be able to divide and conquer the two issues of recording and mixing. Take some space opposite the door/couch end and partition it off with a wall (include a door and see thru windows). This will give you a room to record everything in and a room to mix everything in. The partition can be thicker than a standard wall and filled with more sound absorbing material. Nextly, your desk can be turned back to the original position allowing you and others to walk around. Your mixing room can be treated at the four corners and other troublesome areas once you have located them. Same with the recording room. Just a thought. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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