Mixer snapshots

[volition]

Is there some way to store mixer snapshots in Logic? I.e. some way to instantly store/recall different mixes (i.e. faders, plug-in settings, etc) of a Logic project, to A/B compare them.

 

Did a search before posting but couldn't really find anything excent some solutions using the environment (Macprovideo.com Logic TNT3, http://www.audiogrocery.com/logic_sc.htm) but these only seem able to store faders, buttons etc, and not plug-in settings.

 

Until now I've worked around this by saving different versions of the project with "save as..." and bouncing these out as a reference while I move along on a project, but it's a tedious process and can create a lot of clutter.

 

Thanks.

[ski]

The short answer is "no".

 

Here's a longer "yes and no" answer...

 

Using the environment's capabilities it's technically (semi) possible to create snapshots of plugins, but it's not really feasible to operate from a user point of view. Trust me, I've tried. It would easy to come up with a scheme to do this if Logic's environment provided for a way to let you "ping" a plugin and have it dump all of its parameter settings. Then those values can be stored and recalled. But it doesn't... And even with the technique I've developed to store existing plugin parameters and recall them, it's actually not possible to get perfect recall. I'll spare you the details LOL! So for all practical purposes, the only properties of a channel strip that can be dumped and recalled are the kinds you mentioned already. However, even with that, it's not possible to get 100% perfect recall of even those parameters. So I doubt that even the environment you posted the link for will allow for 100% perfect recall. Maybe "close" but not "perfect".

[volition]

Not what I wanted to hear but thanks for the insight.

Sent a feature request so at least there's a .000000000000001% chance of it appearing in the next version.

At any rate I hope the next version makes use of Lion's file versioning so smaller differences can be contained to a single project file, even if we don't get instant recall for AB-ing mixes as the project plays.

[Audiogrocery]

but these only seem able to store faders, buttons etc, and not plug-in settings.

 

Right, Logic SC can not store plugin parameters (regarding the facts posted by Ski) but this does not mean that you can not make plugin presets Mixer snapshot comparison using Logic SC. The conception of doing that is a bit little different...

 

Examples:

 

1. Let's say you want to compare two (or three) EQ custom plugin presets on the same Vocal channel strip. Logic SC supports up to 16 inserts per channel (as well up to 32 Aux channels which increases the FX processing - 32x16=512 additional pre-load presets in the Auxes) . For example you copy an EQ plugin by holding Option + Command and drag it on an empty insert slot. You load your custom presets into each EQ plugin instance and bypass all EQs leaving just one un-bypassed (which is your 1st scene version). You can do that trick for more channels by duplicating the Instruments, plugins etc and preload each instance with a given custom preset and bypass them ect. Now you can create a Mixer snapshot using the SC - let say it is your A scene.

After that you can change the plugin bypasses (of the preloaded plugins) and make snapshot B, snapshot C etc using the Logic SC.

As an example go to the web SC demo video and watch carefully the end of the video ( the Guitar play part). The video web player supports HD full resolution - use it to open it in full screen. Have a look what's going on the most left Guitar channel - each SC snapshot changes the Guitar plugins - Guitar Amp Pro, Guitar Rig, EKramer . It's just a demo using different plugins but it can be same one - say three Guitar Rig plugin instances each preloaded with a different preset. As you see in the demo video - there are no audio interruptions or clicks between the Mixer scene snapshots (a blue text banner to the right gives some info what's going on).

 

2. Another scenario is working with different Channel Strip Presets. Let's say you are pleased with the sound of some Software Instrument where you have inserted a few plugin FX on that channel (this is your version A for example). In this case you can save that channel as a regular Logic Channel Strip preset and load it into some empty Instrument channel and change the Instrument and the plugin parameters, presets etc (this is your version B). You can create third channel version C etc. Now mute channel strips B & C and leave A unmuted. Make a scene snapshot A in the SC. After that you mute A & C channels unmute B channel etc. During all that you can make changes anywhere in the Logic mixer - no problem the SC snapshot will capture everything.

 

As a whole bypassing and channel muting with pre-loaded plugins is the main principle which is based on the standard A/B comparison. The powerful SC clipboard gives the option to manage your Mixer snapshots very easily and quickly so you can copy A scene into B (SC preset) modify B and store - this is the most useful feature used in the soundscape design (opera scenes, live concerts etc) in combination with DAW sequencing.

[shivermetimbers]

Is there some way to store mixer snapshots in Logic? I.e. some way to instantly store/recall different mixes (i.e. faders, plug-in settings, etc) of a Logic project, to A/B compare them.

 

Did a search before posting but couldn't really find anything excent some solutions using the environment (Macprovideo.com Logic TNT3, http://www.audiogrocery.com/logic_sc.htm) but these only seem able to store faders, buttons etc, and not plug-in settings.

 

Until now I've worked around this by saving different versions of the project with "save as..." and bouncing these out as a reference while I move along on a project, but it's a tedious process and can create a lot of clutter.

 

Thanks.

 

 

How big of a project are you talking about and how much are you actually changing?

[ski]

Thing is, I don't think it's possible to get 100% accurate recall of even fader positions using any of the various environment-based snapshot schemes that we've discussed here on LPH over the past year or so. The values of CC#7 events reflecting the position of channel strip faders won't store or recall perfectly in every circumstance because accurate (or should I say, "complete") position data isn't output by the faders to begin with. Same situation occurs with various plugins. Here's the deal...

 

In my snapshot scheme for storing/recalling channel EQ settings (which I haven't published here on LPH) I discovered that while it's possible to store settings for all EQ parameters (in multiple, instantly recallable "memory banks" created using transformers) the values that get stored are imperfect and therefore recall is imperfect. You can see for yourself by hooking up a monitor to the output of a channel strip and then adjusting the frequency value on a band. As you adjust it you'll see via the monitor that some of the fader event values are repeated. This seems like an MSB/LSB situation going on internally, but changing the value only generates the MSB fader events, not the LSB fader events.

 

Strangely, the same is not true for the cut/boost amount on any given band; no repeated values are seen when adjusting those values; there is a perfect pairing between the values for cut or boost amount for a band and corresponding fader events. So while it's possible to create a situation where you save the fader event values generated by adjusting EQ parameters, recall is not 100% reliable when you feed those back to the EQ; cut/boost amount will be perfect, but the frequency setting will not be.

 

The same repeated-value situation occurs with channel strip faders. It's possible to move a fader between two positions and generate the same value for the CC#7 event it outputs. So if recall is going to work then it has to be exact, not approximate, not even a 1 Hz or 10 Hz discrepancy. So in short, I think snapshot recall in Logic is mostly a pipe dream.

[shivermetimbers]

Thing is, I don't think it's possible to ...blah, blah, blah...

 

 

 

Personally, I think some people take the A/B comparison wayyyyyyyyyy too far in the sense that every control on every channel strip must be touched, stored, changed, and compared. I mean, come on!

 

Record the song and mix it. If there are some small changes, do those on a separate track and mute the old track.

 

Man up already, do a mix, stick with it, marry it, make it have your babies, live a long happy life with no regrets. Then move on.

 

 

 

I think it is funny that the ones who know how to do this do not use it.

The one who want to use it have no interest in learning how to create it.

 

... They just want.

 

http://static.hypervocal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/soapbox.jpg

[robertg]

Thing is, I don't think it's possible to get 100% accurate recall of even fader positions using any of the various environment-based snapshot schemes that we've discussed here on LPH over the past year or so. The values of CC#7 events reflecting the position of channel strip faders won't store or recall perfectly in every circumstance because accurate (or should I say, "complete") position data isn't output by the faders to begin with. Same situation occurs with various plugins. Here's the deal...

 

In my snapshot scheme for storing/recalling channel EQ settings (which I haven't published here on LPH) I discovered that while it's possible to store settings for all EQ parameters (in multiple, instantly recallable "memory banks" created using transformers) the values that get stored are imperfect and therefore recall is imperfect. You can see for yourself by hooking up a monitor to the output of a channel strip and then adjusting the cut/boost amount on a band. As you adjust it you'll see via the monitor that some of the fader event values are repeated. This seems like an MSB/LSB situation going on internally, but changing the value only generates the MSB fader events, not the LSB fader events. In other words, a fader event such as Fader 3, 22, 0 might be output for two or more increments of the parameter.

 

The same situation occurs with channel strip faders. And if recall is going to work then it has to be exact, not approximate, not even a .1 dB discrepancy. So in short, I think snapshot recall in Logic is mostly a pipe dream.

 

copy and pasting a channel strip setting to another recalls the fader level and plugin state exactly. It sucks that you have to do this one at a time, but it's better than nothing.. Perhaps only for key parts of the mix to be A/B'd.

[camillo jr]

Man up already, do a mix, stick with it, marry it, make it have your babies, live a long happy life with no regrets. Then move on.

 

LOL!!

[ski]

copy and pasting a channel strip setting to another recalls the fader level and plugin state exactly. It sucks that you have to do this one at a time, but it's better than nothing.. Perhaps only for key parts of the mix to be A/B'd.

 

Unfortunately, channel strip settings don't include any fader level, sends, or send levels.

[robertg]

copy and pasting a channel strip setting to another recalls the fader level and plugin state exactly. It sucks that you have to do this one at a time, but it's better than nothing.. Perhaps only for key parts of the mix to be A/B'd.

 

Unfortunately, channel strip settings don't include any fader level, sends, or send levels.

 

not talking about the saved strip settings, but when you copy a channel strip (command + option + C) and then paste it onto another, everything goes with it. This is a way to A/B through the use of a temporary "holding" strip or save the state of the entire mixer one by one.

[ski]

not talking about the saved strip settings, but when you copy a channel strip (command + option + C) and then paste it onto another, everything goes with it. This is a way to A/B through the use of a temporary "holding" strip or save the state of the entire mixer one by one.

 

Interesting. Didn't know about that feature.

[redlogic]

Man up already, do a mix, stick with it, marry it, make it have your babies, live a long happy life with no regrets. Then move on.

 

LOL!!

[rekloos]

copy and pasting a channel strip setting to another recalls the fader level and plugin state exactly. It sucks that you have to do this one at a time, but it's better than nothing.. Perhaps only for key parts of the mix to be A/B'd.

 

Unfortunately, channel strip settings don't include any fader level, sends, or send levels.

 

not talking about the saved strip settings, but when you copy a channel strip (command + option + C) and then paste it onto another, everything goes with it. This is a way to A/B through the use of a temporary "holding" strip or save the state of the entire mixer one by one.

 

 

holy shite- that works! good one robert

[shivermetimbers]

That's the command for 'New Track with duplicate settings' which sits up in the Arrange window (by the '+' sign).

 

Why would you want to duplicate all the inserts?

[robertg]

That's the command for 'New Track with duplicate settings' which sits up in the Arrange window (by the '+' sign).

 

Why would you want to duplicate all the inserts?

 

No, this is "copy channel strip setting" from the setting menu at the top of the strip.

[ski]

That's the command for 'New Track with duplicate settings' which sits up in the Arrange window (by the '+' sign).

 

Why would you want to duplicate all the inserts?

 

No, this is "copy channel strip setting" from the setting menu at the top of the strip.

 

So Robert, you're talking about duplicating channel strips for every channel that you'd want to do an A/B comparison to. That's a good move, but to make it work means duplicating the regions and automation for each channel too, and then muting the originals. So it's not just a one-button operation (which is the gist of what snapshot recall infers).

 

But yeah, on a small project your suggestion makes a lot of sense, or if the comparison is just for a few channels on a larger project.

[robertg]

That's the command for 'New Track with duplicate settings' which sits up in the Arrange window (by the '+' sign).

 

Why would you want to duplicate all the inserts?

 

No, this is "copy channel strip setting" from the setting menu at the top of the strip.

 

So Robert, you're talking about duplicating channel strips for every channel that you'd want to do an A/B comparison to. That's a good move, but to make it work means duplicating the regions and automation for each channel too, and then muting the originals. So it's not just a one-button operation (which is the gist of what snapshot recall infers).

 

But yeah, on a small project your suggestion makes a lot of sense, or if the comparison is just for a few channels on a larger project.

 

I agree, so it would be nice if logic actually supported entire mixer snapshots through an expansion of the copy strip command. Meanwhile, this is sort of a poor man's approach. I use it all the time because I monitor my external synths through auxes with the effects running live.. Then when it's time to record them I copy the aux to an audio channel.

[volition]

How big of a project are you talking about and how much are you actually changing?

 

Even a very small project will usually accumulate enough mix changes for me that I could see this being useful.

I like to try stuff out, especially when I know what I'm going for to see if I can get somewhere else that works as good or better.

I agree with the sentiment of your next post about not getting stuck in A/B limbo, but this isn't a feature that requires that kind of compulsive use.

 

It'd just be nice to have as a failsafe, to check that you're actually going in the right direction with your mix after you've made substantial (whatever that means) changes.

 

Another use for it would be if you're working with/for someone.. maybe someone who has a say on the final mix. If you could instantly switch between different mixes while playing, it'd make it easier for both them and you to say where the final mix should go.

[shivermetimbers]

That's the command for 'New Track with duplicate settings' which sits up in the Arrange window (by the '+' sign).

 

Why would you want to duplicate all the inserts?

 

No, this is "copy channel strip setting" from the setting menu at the top of the strip.

 

Command + D, New Track with Duplicate Settings, Cmd+ Opt + C is all the same thing in terms of unchanged key commands.

 

Personally, I like to bounce my tracks in place with the processing.

 

For example, I may want to try out four or five different guitar sounds and I can use the same initial unprocessed guitar part, process and print five different versions. I can do this with as many tracks as I like and group them so that I can solo only the specific tracks I want to hear. So now, not only can I A/B ... I can A/B/C/D/E ... and even F ... if I want to.

8)

[Audiogrocery]

Thing is, I don't think it's possible to get 100% accurate recall of even fader positions using any of the various environment-based snapshot schemes that we've discussed here on LPH over the past year or so.

 

Regarding the topic title "Mixer Snapshots" & the Logic SC question, I did (and will do ) my best to input some notes about the classical Mixer Scene snapshots. It is well known that the Mixer Snapshots can not be used for A/B comparison only ! The DAW Mixer Snapshots (incl. snapshot automation & snapshot management) is a very useful feature which can be compared to the hardware mixers which support Mixer scenes snapshots. We are not talking for Logic A/B workarounds only - there are many.

The Mixer Snapshot feature requires making snapshots of the whole Logic Mixer (inc various snapshot retrieving features like Program Change, Control Change etc) like you do with your hardware desk mixer (if it supports that).

 

The OP is asking for plugin parameters snapshots as well - it is another question. Thanks Ski - you could answer to that question in the best way ! I agree with your Environment investigations and there is now sense to comment them ( I was quite familiar with all that before creating the Logic SC ). As a whole the Logic SC is based on a very simple Environment Channel Strip message retrieving which works in 100% - Inserts Bypassing, Send Levels, Pans, Levels, Mutes & Solos - that's the classical Mixer Scene Snapshot way. I think I have explained quite well (in my first reply) how to use the SC with different plugin presets...

 

Your plugin parameters notes are really interesting (I'm quite familiar with that) and I could come into comments if you post a new topic about that... Your reply about the plugin parameters is valid but there is now sense when you can override it with pre-loaded plugin presets into different slots, Aux channels etc. This is the main Mixer Scene Snapshot conception...

 

A.G

[ski]

Thanks Scandor. BTW, I revised some of the fine details in my previous post about repeated values from EQ parameters (please re-read it to see the changes, if you like). I'll have to re-read your posts to get a better understanding of how you're accomplishing recall, but it's interesting stuff for sure.

 

=sKi=

[Audiogrocery]

Hi Ski,

Thanks for the quick reply ! I have an idea of your EQ example and will try to comment that later. Please post it as new Topic like (Logic 14bit plugin parameter fantom behavior or what you prefer ). I'll come into that for sure.

Regards

[ski]

Hi Ski,

Thanks for the quick reply ! I have an idea of your EQ example and will try to comment that later. Please post it as new Topic like (Logic 14bit plugin parameter fantom behavior or what you prefer ). I'll come into that for sure.

Regards

 

Hi Scandor,

 

I'm not sure I want to post my project, but I'll give you some information about it. What I'm going to describe is my test setup where I have two channel stips: "Source" and "Destination". Both have Channel EQ's in slot 1. I make changes to the EQ settings on Source, memorize them in real time in an environment macro, and by pushing a button I send Source's EQ settings to Destination. In practice, the destination for the memorized EQ curve would actually be the source itself, but for now it's a one-way test process.

 

The macro contains a transformer map ("EQ_Map") that is pre-programmed to contain the default values for a newly instantiated Channel EQ (i.e., the EQ is flat). There are 36 meaningful parameters (fader #0 - fader #35). Before I adjust the EQ on the source, I connect the output of the source channel strip to the macro. Then...

 

In the macro is a Mapset transformer which reads the data bytes of fader events generated when I adjust EQ parameters in Source and updates the values in EQ_Map to these new values. Then, by pressing a button, I start a process that reads all 36 parameters at once from the map and that data is sent to Destination. So with one button press, Destination's EQ takes on the curve (and other parameters) of the Source EQ.

 

As I described previously, the EQ data recorded in EQ_Map isn't 100% accurate. Cut/Boost, and some other parameters are perfect, but the frequency settings are not. As a side note, I've found that when I move some of the EQ bands to their highest frequency setting, the highest second data byte value that the EQ will output is 126.

 

HTH,

 

=sKi=

[Audiogrocery]

Hi Ski,

 

Trust me I'm 100% familiar with your EQ environment scheme reading your detailed explanation - I have been spent my life into that. Everything in your scheme is correct (I can see that in my head like I see your computer live) but the EQ Hz massage issue is another topic.

Now right to the question. Have a look at the image below. I guess you are talking about that scenario ?

The Hz values use "semi" values which can not be registered from a regular fader range 0-127 (The Environment objects apart of the 14bit fader do not support that).

So you need some kind of 14bit solution to get the Hz full range (in seems to be up to 500-600 or Any, you can manually find it using the TBA edit or tweaking the Hz EQ small arrows but it does not cost the effort).

As you see in the image I show both - the Arrange TBA Hz view and the TBA event list. Note: the "fine" semi Hz 950, 970, 980 etc shown in the Arrange are shown as 71 multiple massages in the Automation Event list. This means that Logic uses 14bit massages for the TBA but it does not show that messages as 14bit in the Automation list (they are just hidden) - here is the problem.

The proving is that all these (#71 in our example) messages are played/gathered into "x2" couples like the 14bit ones during the Logic running - look at the TBA event list. It is clear that x2 (#71) is not the right view in the event list so I have tried to copy a couple and paste into an Environment Sys fader just to check if I can retrieve "fine/semi" Hz values like 980hz for example. It does not work...

I have tried the C.A dialog learning any CC# to check if I can retrieve these "fine" values during TBA "Latch" - no success.

 

To my opinion it can be solved using LC emulation or real LC device but even that you will need lots of transformations (if want to use Environment plus some kind of Emu), IAC etc, which does not cost the effort. For now you can simplify your environment scheme into plugin "Bypass" gear. Just re-design the EQ - plugin parameters into Plugin 1-16 Bypass fader messages. Load as many instances EQ presets you want into the channel strip (up to 16, if this is not enough, route thru Aux to Aux which will give 16+16+16... etc). What I can say more - just CHEERS !

 

A.G

 

http://audiogrocery.com/support/images/logic_eq_hz.png

[ski]

Trust me I'm 100% familiar with your EQ environment scheme reading your detailed explanation - I have been spent my life into that.

 

I was confident that you would understand my explanation.

 

Now right to the question. Have a look at the image below. I guess you are talking about that scenario ?

 

Exactly. And what you said after that about needing a 14-bit solution to get the full frequency range is same conclusion I came to. So we now have double confirmation of something that doesn't do what we need it to do. &

 

The proving is that all these (#71 in our example) messages are played/gathered into "x2" couples like the 14bit ones during the Logic running - look at the TBA event list. It is clear that x2 (#71) is not the right view in the event list so I have tried to copy a couple and paste into an Environment Sys fader just to check if I can retrieve "fine/semi" Hz values like 980hz for example. It does not work...

 

Good try, man. I took a shot at generating Fader 3 messages with data byte 1 values for frequency settings increased by 32 just like MIDI MSB values. For example, from your screenshot you are showing Fader 3, 21 messages. So I tried generating Fader 3, 53 messages with different data byte 2 values to get the in-between Hz, but I didn't have success.

 

However, I did discover a hidden feature of EQ's by doing this. Can you guess what it is?

 

To my opinion it can be solved using LC emulation or real LC device but even that you will need lots of transformations (if want to use Environment plus some kind of Emu), IAC etc, which does not cost the effort. For now you can simplify your environment scheme into plugin "Bypass" gear. Just re-design the EQ - plugin parameters into Plugin 1-16 Bypass fader messages. Load as many instances EQ presets you want into the channel strip (up to 16, if this is not enough, route thru Aux to Aux which will give 16+16+16... etc).

 

I would LOVE to have a program that would intercept incoming MIDI data and selectively convert certain messages into control surface data that could be written directly to automation. Do you know of such a program?

[Audiogrocery]

Do you know of such a program?

There is is person who is quite familiar with that and his name is John Pitcairn - http://www.opuslocus.com

John is not only LC Emu developer, he was (and probably) is one of the great Logic Environment designers on this planet (we have been change some projects in the past). After the Logic Environment developing he moved to the LC Emu project. So he is quite familiar with both and can give you the info you are looking for...

[ski]

Wow, I just checked out his LC Emu. Might be exactly what I've been searching for. Thanks for that link!

 

Regards,

 

Ski

 

P.S. from my previous post, do you know which hidden feature of Channel EQ can be accessed by fader commands?

[Audiogrocery]

P.S. from my previous post, do you know which hidden feature of Channel EQ can be accessed by fader commands?

 

None in this scenario - the true meter is the TBA event list ! There are lots of 14bit plugin parameters which show "fake" info in the Environment monitor patched after the CS but the true info is to record TBA and see what's going in the TBA event list. For example you can find some couples of "bla-bla" Fader messages shown in the Environment post CS monitor and if "Latch/record" some TBA you will find just true fader messages showing parameter #132 for instance which is the right 14bit one - this is the true ! In some scenarios it can be override using a "Dummy" Enviro fader cabled to an IAC instrument port and the C.A. In our EQ scenario the TBA list shows multiple hidden fader messages shown as same value. Here is the problem... Contact John, I'm sure he will give you much more info.

[ski]

I think you misunderstood my question. Try this:

 

Open a channel EQ in insert slot 1 of an instrument channel. Then create an environment fader programmed to generate Fader, 3, 36 messages and connect it to the channel strip. Move the fader. What do you see happening in the EQ?

 

 

P.S. I'm familiar with the high-value data byte that you mentioned. It's so frustrating that we can't generate these from the environment easily! (Sculpture has lots of these).