Start losing creativity!?

[Andyreww]

Wtf is that supposed to mean?

 

Do you really need me to explain it?

 

That would be good.....

[camillo jr]

Wtf is that supposed to mean?

 

Do you really need me to explain it?

 

Oh please, oh please do..... a lot of us out out here in radio land are wondering how a trashy 1 minute punk song (Huh! That's only about as long as 16 bars of EDM!) relates to the theme of not conforming to conventions!!!

 

 

 

 

[Scott Jackson]

Wtf is that supposed to mean?

 

Do you really need me to explain it?

 

Oh please, oh please do..... a lot of us out out here in radio land are wondering how a trashy 1 minute punk song (Huh! That's only about as long as 16 bars of EDM!) relates to the theme of not conforming to conventions!!!

 

Are you guys serious? It's really not such an enigmatic message.

 

The name of the tune is NO CONTROL!!!

[Andyreww]

 

The name of the tune is NO CONTROL!!!

 

And?

[Scott Jackson]

And?

 

Wow!

 

I'm out.

 

Have a nice night or day depending on where you are.

[el-bo]

True, a sub-set of folk who don't conform to this however; the EDM producers I know/follow/have been taught by use the initial 16 bar loop idea development method.

 

it's those that don't conform that push things forward...i'm not saying everyone has to be a genre-definer, but i stand by my original recommendation in the context of this post - that creativity is better served by removing certain rigidities....nothing wrong with streamlining certain aspects of workflow to make better use of limited time though

 

do you ever make music or play around with ideas outside your genre ??

[Andyreww]

it's those that don't conform that push things forward...i'm not saying everyone has to be a genre-definer, but i stand by my original recommendation in the context of this post - that creativity is better served by removing certain rigidities....nothing wrong with streamlining certain aspects of workflow to make better use of limited time though

 

I think we agree, I agree that removing certain rigidities can help creativity. You agree that streamlining certain aspects of workflow to make better use of limited time though.

 

So, back to the OP's post and my response....

 

- Which of the tips I posted stifle creativity?

- What recommendations would you have for the OP?

 

Andy

[qvr]

Some projects are just those not worth finishing and re-use the parts as AppleLoops.

[el-bo]

- Which of the tips I posted stifle creativity?

 

depends how you define creativity...everyone of those recommendations seems to take the project in a somewhat inevitable direction...

 

i'm arguing that creativity might not necessarily be there for '16-bar edm', at this time, but might be looking for other channels.....what use is a drum bus for a piece with no drums ??

 

your tips are workflow tips which help remove obstacles to creativity, without necessarily fostering it

 

 

What recommendations would you have for the OP?

 

doing something else....yup, that could mean just turning off logic and going and doing something completely different

 

OR

 

trying something completely different in logic....don't do what you normally do....don't use apple loops....change tempo....change time signature...try different instruments...do a cheezy synth-pop cover of a folk song or a childhood favourite...find a dance accapella and try to arrange a string part for it.....anything....CREATE !!

 

in a world of such creative possibility at our fingertips, do we really want to be limited by limitless limiting genre definitions , like a tailor who only does 'pinstripe', you're s#!+ outta luck if you want plaid

[ski]

+1 on some of the points made...

 

• el-bo said "don't use apple loops". I'll go one step further and offer this: NEVER use everyone-else-in-the-world-is-using-them apple loops. No, I'm not kidding either.

 

• andyreww said, "i'm not saying everyone has to be a genre-definer". I agree. But if you're going to work in a certain genre, try your best to be a genre contributor, not just a genre copycat.

 

Copying what other people have done is fine when you're learning, but the ONLY way you're going to make a contribution to a genre is by doing things that other people haven't done. Analogy: it's the difference between playing in a cover band and playing your own songs; you might be able to do the best recreation of (insert favorite group's hit song here) but no one will ever remember you as an artist for that. Of course, you can make a living if you play in a really good cover band while your original material goes nowhere for years, if ever.

 

• "but i stand by my original recommendation in the context of this post - that creativity is better served by removing certain rigidities...." Totally, totally, totally! Speaking of which, what's this 16-bar loop thing all about? I'll submit that it's just one of a million different approaches.

[el-bo]

NEVER use everyone-else-in-the-world-is-using-them apple loops. No, I'm not kidding either.

 

i used to be like that, but i do find some use for loops for certain percussion tasks like shakers, cabassas congas and other LA percussion...no point in reinventing the wheel and not much different to getting a session musician in and making a loop rom the recordings

 

i also think the other loops are worthwhile starting points, but would never use them in an unaltered state

 

only once have been guilty of using a melodic apple loop, but it kinda caught me of guard

 

elliot said, "i'm not saying everyone has to be a genre-definer"

 

fixed that for ya

[ski]

NEVER use everyone-else-in-the-world-is-using-them apple loops. No, I'm not kidding either.

 

i used to be like that, but i do find some use for loops for certain percussion tasks like shakers, cabassas congas and other LA percussion...no point in reinventing the wheel and not much different to getting a session musician in and making a loop rom the recordings

 

For something as innocuous as a shaker or something I'd agree. A shaker's a shaker. But still, there's "demo-itis" to be concerned with...

 

i also think the other loops are worthwhile starting points, but would never use them in an unaltered state

 

Sometimes it's really really really really really really hard to let go of (and replace) things that you use when just starting a track. "Idea stuff". In other words, demo-itis is a force to be reckoned with, and I think it's best to avoid it if at all possible. Being that apple loops are so ubiquitous, I think it makes for a healthier (if not more challenging) creative mindset to leave apple loops in the dust. Shaker loops notwithstanding of course.

 

only once have been guilty of using a melodic apple loop, but it kinda caught me of guard

 

Sure. We believe you.

 

[el-bo]

Sometimes it's really really really really really really hard to let go of (and replace) things that you use when just starting a track. "Idea stuff". In other words, demo-itis is a force to be reckoned with, and I think it's best to avoid it if at all possible

 

oh no, i never do that....tsk tsk...never use them as place-holders, i don't work like that....every little piece of the puzzle is created to be what it is supposed to be at the time it is being created...every little piece of the puzzle informs the next bit, so trying to replace a beat that has shaped so much of the successive parts would be too hard for me

 

what i meant by starting point is that the loop might include (especially if they are audio apple loops) little snippets of stuff you might wanna use...i also like how the midi apple loops show ways of using exs kits that you might not think of otherwise

 

either way, just don't use 'em straight is all....chop 'em, re-arrange them, effect different hits or bounce-to-audio and eff them the sh' up !!

[el-bo]

only once have been guilty of using a melodic apple loop, but it kinda caught me of guard

 

Sure. We believe you.

 

 

70s Rock Piano 61

 

in fact i find many of the loops in the 70's rock piano section to send my mind spinning with ideas, especially 02-05, 10-14...kind of elements of stewart copeland, crossed with erik satie and a dash of steve reich 17 is back to copeland's 'rumble-fish...then it all goes bollocks honkey-tonkey elton john till number 60 and 61

[ski]

Eek!

 

 

[el-bo]

Eek!

 

 

 

they don't do anything for you i guess ??

[Andyreww]

Wow...so much to answer....

 

what use is a drum bus for a piece with no drums ??

 

It's included if it needs to be used. Thus far, I haven't listened to any Tech House/Electro that doesn't have drums. If I was to try and create a track w/o drums then I would not use the drum bus - quite simple.

 

doing something else....yup, that could mean just turning off logic and going and doing something completely different

 

Yep - I noted that in my original post.

 

trying something completely different in logic....don't do what you normally do....don't use apple loops....change tempo....change time signature...try different instruments...do a cheezy synth-pop cover of a folk song or a childhood favourite...find a dance accapella and try to arrange a string part for it.....anything....CREATE !!

 

None of the tips I mentioned would prevent doing any of this

 

In a world of such creative possibility at our fingertips, do we really want to be limited by limitless limiting genre definitions

 

No we don't - This said, the OP produces specific genres (as do I) so my response was in relation to what the OP posted. I could have said "we can't answer your question here because if we do we are putting rigidity into how you produce and conforming will stifle your creativity" however; I didn't because I wanted to provide the OP with some tips on how to get to a creative position quickly. Incidentally the OP appeared to like them:

 

My boy ANDY!! Can't thank you enough on your elaborate response! Really appreciate the techniques and suggestions! I have created a couple templates to help save time (including all that you have mentioned), along with assigning markers to designate major sections. I'll put alot of these tips to use tonight when I sit down to the comp.. especially the last one...

 

Speaking of which, what's this 16-bar loop thing all about? I'll submit that it's just one of a million different approaches.

 

True it is one of a million approaches however; the OP was frustrated that after 4 hours he'd only got an intro down. My response to this was to set-up a 16 bar loop and focus on a main idea. This could be (although I'm not 100%) equivalent to a musician strumming/jamming to get ideas. The advantage a DAW has is that you can add additional elements to quickly to see if the idea works.

 

The 16 bar idea technique is something I've been taught and seen on multiple tut vids (some made by very experienced EDM producers) - hence my passing it on to the OP as a tip. If there's a better way of getting an idea down I'm all ears.

 

If they are audio apple loops) little snippets of stuff you might wanna use...i also like how the midi apple loops show ways of using exs kits that you might not think of otherwise

 

Yep - that's how I use them. I'll use a drum loop initially to help with the main idea. Invariably the loop gets changed/drum sounds replaced etc. I also use the midi loops and change their sounds. I've found a lot of good ideas come from this.

 

Andy

[ski]

@ elbo: nope, sowwy!

 

@ Andy:

 

True it is one of a million approaches however; the OP was frustrated that after 4 hours he'd only got an intro down.

 

But what does that mean? Maybe he was spending 4 hours beating a dead horse (i.e., not the most inspiring or great idea). Maybe four hours wasn't enough time. Who knows?

 

My response to this was to set-up a 16 bar loop and focus on a main idea. This could be (although I'm not 100%) equivalent to a musician strumming/jamming to get ideas.

 

Fair enough, but it's jamming with a machine, which (studies show) requires at least 50% more imagination than collaborating with other humans. Seriously tho, when you're working on your own, you really only have your influences and yourself to draw upon. That's not jammin'. The closest thing to jamming, I've found, is to buy a new synth plugin and go through the sounds. That's when I'll hear someone else's sonic imagination coming into the studio and that can be very inspiring.

 

The 16 bar idea technique is something I've been taught and seen on multiple tut vids (some made by very experienced EDM producers) - hence my passing it on to the OP as a tip. If there's a better way of getting an idea down I'm all ears.

 

The idea of working in 16 measure chunks seems arbitrary as well as limiting. Why not 8? Why not 1? Think what you will of LMFAO's "I'm Sexy" but it starts off with a 2-beat (not 2 bars, just 2 beats!) bass line that loops. Eventually it expands to be the full 1-bar figure. But there's a half-a-bar figure that's extremely hooky and sets up the whole rest of the track.

 

Just saying...

[Andyreww]

Fair enough, but it's jamming with a machine, which (studies show) requires at least 50% more imagination than collaborating with other humans. Seriously tho, when you're working on your own, you really only have your influences and yourself to draw upon. That's not jammin'. The closest thing to jamming, I've found, is to buy a new synth plugin and go through the sounds. That's when I'll hear someone else's sonic imagination coming into the studio and that can be very inspiring..

 

Jamming was probably the wrong word - I said I wasn't 100% sure. What I meant was the process you go through alone to create riff's, melodies etc. In my case its setting a beat and a synth sound and tinkering, monkeying, farting (whatever its called) with the keyboard to get an idea down.

 

The idea of working in 16 measure chunks seems arbitrary as well as limiting. Why not 8? Why not 1? Think what you will of LMFAO's "I'm Sexy" but it starts off with a 2-beat (not 2 bars, just 2 beats!) bass line that loops. Eventually it expands to be the full 1-bar figure. But there's a half-a-bar figure that's extremely hooky and sets up the whole rest of the track.

 

So, do you think they started with 2-beats, bassline etc and built it from there? I don't know btw. When you start a track do you start with an intro or, go into the main idea? - Just asking.

[ski]

When you start a track do you start with an intro or, go into the main idea? - Just asking.

 

You're going to hate my answer...

 

Here it is: "It all depends." To elaborate... I have no rules. Sometimes I let my fingers do the walking at the piano, sometimes it's a string patch. Sometimes I hear stuff in my head; could be just a riff, sometimes it's a chord progression, sometimes it's a complete piece of music. Occasionally I break out my old Oberheim 2-voice and try to come up with a catchy hook using the 8-note step sequencer to use as the basis for a track.

 

In terms of song form, it also depends. I usually collaborate with other people when it comes to writing, but my strong point is writing bridges. But when it comes to instrumental tracks or orchestral music, I usually write lineraly.

 

Most importantly, I think, I've become much better at letting go of things that aren't working. Could be a part, a track, an arrangement, or a whole song. So really, "it all depends".

[Andyreww]

You're going to hate my answer... - Here it is: "It all depends."

 

I half knew that that was coming - silly me!

 

ok, maybe putting it another way: In your career to date (including your EDM experience). Can you put these in order; intro's, riff's, chord progression, full piece of music. 1 being most common - 4 being least common?

[ski]

LOL!

 

Really, given the way I work (and how long my career has been) it's hard to say. But if I had to generalize about which things come easiest:

 

(1) chord progressions

(2) riffs

(3) intros

(4) full piece of music

 

I know that doesn't exactly answer your question, but honestly it's the best I could do.

 

Best,

 

Ski

[Andyreww]

LOL!

 

Really, given the way I work (and how long my career has been) it's hard to say. But if I had to generalize about which things come easiest:

 

(1) chord progressions

(2) riffs

(3) intros

(4) full piece of music

 

I know that doesn't exactly answer your question, but honestly it's the best I could do.

 

Best,

 

Ski

 

So, although you may not agree with the 16 bar main idea, it does seem that you've started more on the main elements of a track rather than intro's/full tracks - right?

[ski]

I think you're looking to find out how I structure things. But as I've said I don't start out being creative with rules or forms in mind. I dunno, maybe it's difficult to understand but that's how I work. I'm comfortable with the idea of starting without any pre-conceived notions, seeing what happens, and building from there. Or starting with an idea for a bassline and building a whole song off that vibe. Anything. No rules.

 

Getting back to the OP, my best advice if you're experiencing a creative block is to task yourself to put down 4 ideas in one hour. They don't have to be full-blown productions. Could be as simple as a beat + bass line + hook for one track, beat and piano for another, something trancy with just four on the floor for a third... Not full-blown songs, just ideas for further development.

[Andyreww]

I think you're looking to find out how I structure things. But as I've said I don't start out being creative with rules or forms in mind

 

Not really, just trying to understand where you start. It appears that more often than not you are starting with main elements of a piece of music rather than intro's. You're experience/skill now facilitates complete pieces of music, but not all the time. If I'm not mistaken this supports my tip of working on a main idea rather than an intro? True, the length 16, 8, 32, whatever can be variable.

 

I've found that 16 bars is enough to understand if an idea is going to work. If its getting boring after 16 bars and interest can't be added with fx, variation etc. then its highly unlikely that it will work for a full track. Since EDM has a certain degree of monotony in it if i make a decision that a main idea is not going to work I'm factoring in a certain amount of monotony in the decision.

 

Does this make sense?

[camillo jr]

Great discussion going on here.

 

what i meant by starting point is that the loop might include (especially if they are audio apple loops) little snippets of stuff you might wanna use...i also like how the midi apple loops show ways of using exs kits that you might not think of otherwise

 

either way, just don't use 'em straight is all....chop 'em, re-arrange them, effect different hits or bounce-to-audio and eff them the sh' up !!

 

Yes! Eff 'em up. The delicious feeling of using a loop in the "wrong" key and having it work in a strange way is still a creative hit in my books.

 

Seriously tho, when you're working on your own, you really only have your influences and yourself to draw upon. That's not jammin'. The closest thing to jamming, I've found, is to buy a new synth plugin and go through the sounds. That's when I'll hear someone else's sonic imagination coming into the studio and that can be very inspiring.

 

Interesting distinction.... I actually think of what I do when I create a tune as "jammin" because I improvise stuff against what I've already laid down. So I guess I've conflated the ideas of improv and jamming to be roughly equivalent.

 

Most importantly, I think, I've become much better at letting go of things that aren't working. Could be a part, a track, an arrangement, or a whole song. So really, "it all depends".

 

Still learning that one but yeah, getting comfortable with ditching stuff was the door to taking old tunes that had something (but not everything) good in them and taking them to the next level. It's funny how long I was holding on to ideas before I realized the power of Save As to let me move on AND keep my crappy old ideas at the same time!!

 

I'm comfortable with the idea of starting without any pre-conceived notions, seeing what happens, and building from there.

 

For the most part, this is my approach too. Which is probably why I can't write a trance tune to save my life!

Edited March 4, 2012 by camillo jr

[shivermetimbers]

Sometimes I hear stuff in my head;

 

" ...Why is it that when we talk to God we're said to be praying, but when God talks to us we're schizophrenic?" ~ Lily Tomlin

[Andyreww]

Sometimes I hear stuff in my head;

 

" ...Why is it that when we talk to God we're said to be praying, but when God talks to us we're schizophrenic?" ~ Lily Tomlin

 

"...and when you talk to yourself you're having the best conversation you'll have, but other's will think you're mad" ~ Andy Clark

[ski]

FINALLY we're starting to have a meaningful conversation!!!

[Andyreww]

FINALLY we're starting to have a meaningful conversation!!!

 

Damn, I was just getting used to the circular conversation that was ongoing...