Decipher this Time Signature?

[aleos]

exactly. And since he dosen't know we have to guess. I would assume by the the feel of his playing that he's feeling bars of four. If you wanted a bass guitar or kick drum to line up with the bass string hits of his guitar, it would be in 4. If you were to say 3+3+2+1, there might be a way to make it fit, but stylistically it would be out of the ordinary.

 

Thanks for the tip on upload, but all of a sudden, since I updated to 10.7.4, "archive" isn't in my right-click anymore. What the hell?

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Fair enough.

 

Weird about the missing .zip function, don't have Lion so I can't help, sorry. Do post when you figure it out though!

[aleos]

im not really in the pocket.

little joe with perc.mp3.zip

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

im not really in the pocket.

 

Really!

 

My mp3 sounds more natural to me, but that's to be expected...

 

I guess it comes down to where you consider the first downbeat to be.

[ski]

Rev, give it up. Don't be a sore loser. Face it man, just face it. You're........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BEAT!

 

(guffaw)

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

[treeboxterry]

As a lover of off-the-wall musical counts - I gave this a good listen. First - I love the melodic and rhythmic feel of Joe's playing.

 

I can count consistently from the first note of the song (recognizing the loose cut into the first note) as a repeating 2 bar cycle with no variation. What I count is a sequence of a bar of 5/4 followed by a bar of 4/4 - repeated until it spills into the middle of the last bar where it ends on the 2.

 

I don't hear any extra beats in any of these cycles.

 

I haven't done it , but I'm sure I could drop this into Logic and lay out alternating bars of 5/4 and 4/4 from beginning to end... and fit this little ditty right in there.

[aleos]

I can count consistently from the first note of the song (recognizing the loose cut into the first note) as a repeating 2 bar cycle with no variation. What I count is a sequence of a bar of 5/4 followed by a bar of 4/4 - repeated until it spills into the middle of the last bar where it ends on the 2.

 

I haven't done it , but I'm sure I could drop this into Logic and lay out alternating bars of 5/4 and 4/4 from beginning to end... and fit this little ditty right in there.

 

I woud love to hear how you hear 5/4 in there. Please share.

[Eriksimon]

I can count consistently from the first note of the song (recognizing the loose cut into the first note) as a repeating 2 bar cycle with no variation. What I count is a sequence of a bar of 5/4 followed by a bar of 4/4 - repeated until it spills into the middle of the last bar where it ends on the 2.

 

I haven't done it , but I'm sure I could drop this into Logic and lay out alternating bars of 5/4 and 4/4 from beginning to end... and fit this little ditty right in there.

 

I woud love to hear how you hear 5/4 in there. Please share.

 

Download my (or anybody else's) project from p. 1 of this topic and you will see & hear that there's 9 beats in this pattern. No matter where you locate the "first" beat.

[aleos]

Very interesting/impressive Eriksimon. You have a very advanced ear if you are hearing 9 beats. Sonny Rollins, the great sax player would talk about hearing the larger plains of time in music, which is exactly what you're doing.

However myself and Ski beg to differ on the 5/4. The original question is "decipher this time signature".

Let me explain, we have said there is 4 bars of 4/4 and one of 6/4. That equals 18 beats. You hear 9 beats. It seems like you are hearing the half note as the pulse. 18 dived by 2 = 9. Which like I mentioned is a wonderful attribute to have in your ear. I've worked years at getting this skill in improv.

But to decipher a time signature you MUST take into account the accents and stylistic properties of the performance/player.

That is what a time signature is. It's an agreed upon grouping to transmit a certain style or "feel". You, infact have to locate the first beat.

 

24 beats of bossa nova have a very different feel as 24 beats of a Viennese waltz, and no one would say the bossa is in 3 and the waltz is in 4. Yet both line up. It's because 4 (bossa) and 3 are both divided into 24.

What I'm saying is, it's cool that you feel 9 beats, or 5/4, but it does not relay the common, or most likely interpreted time signature of little joe's playing. Your click track does not line up with any of the accents that little joe is giving to us. And that is ignoring his (conscious or unconscious) intent. He is teling us through his accents and bass notes what he wants us to hear. And that is unquestionably 4/4 with a bar of 6/4 at the end.

Download my version. You will hear my kick drum on every downbeat and the high hat on every up beat of the bar. In 4/4 that's beats 2 and 4, and in the bar of 6 it's 2,4 and 6. Infact joe is highlighting those beats beautifully. He's already swinging!

 

wonderful discussion guys.

[Eriksimon]

I don't care much for the fact that I read your compliments as sarcasm, and it seems as if you are hearing a double tempo. In fact, it seems the only difference here is the tempo. All this is sort of academic, but I pretty strongly feel this is not a nervous 200 BPM uptempo rythm, it is a relaxed 100 BPM.

And even though you may very strictly speaking be corrtect (although I'm not convinced at all), I'll stick to my 9/4 sig at 100 BPM.

I listened to Ski's project, and sure, it fits, too. But what a nervous Klopfgeist - just doesn't sound right to me.

Just listened to your version. Sounds off, to me. This whole piece is like an inside/outside cube illusion. You've chosen another downbeat. And another feel. Chosen.

 

But it is genius how "innocent" strumming can confuse/puzzle so many old (significantly older than the artist who's work is being discussed here) guys!

Edited June 26, 2012 by Eriksimon

[aleos]

Jesus, and I was actually sincerely complimenting you.

sorry that you've deciphered my presentation of ideas as arrogance, that's too bad for you. I teach this stuff at the university level and if your ego takes a hit because I know what I'm talking about, I'm sorry. Im not arrogant, actually quite the oposite, it's just what I do for a living, so I thought maybe you'd be happy not having to pay tuition. We come here to ask questions and learn from people who know more than us. That's what I'm here for, and tons of people have helped me, and pointed out where I'm wrong and I don't get my feathers ruffled. If I was arrogant, I'd just tell you you're wrong. It's not in 9/4. But I tried to speak courteously

Why don't you try to explain why you think it's in 9/4? Is it grouped in 3's like many 9/4s are? how about 4+3+2?Or maybe an alternative grouping of 5+4? Show me the downbeat. Can you explain what beats your metronome is on? Write a drum beat for it.

I am all for hearing the true time sig of this song, if I'm wrong, awesome, I've learnt something. I enjoy theoretical discussions, but please provide some evidence/example.

These are the questions you ask in musical analysis and I've tried to speak in as objective a manner as possible with regards to the time sig of this song. Otherwise we're all just talking about how we "feel" into internal musical purgatory.

Its not a cube illusion. It follows 300 years of music history pretty closely.

I didn't choose the downbeat, Little Joe did.

 

and p.s.

I'm not an old guy

[ski]

Erik,

 

I listened to Ski's project, and sure, it fits, too. But what a nervous Klopfgeist - just doesn't sound right to me.

 

There's nothing unusual about having a tempo with such a high number. The klopfgeist is banging away, sure, but that has nothing to do with the actual feel. It's perfectly fine. If you were asked to play on this track under the direction of a conductor, chances are that they would be beating out the 4/4 measures on the 1 and the 3, which is "half time". But the feel is like that of a "quick two step".

 

When I first listened to this track over my crappy laptop speakers, I thought I heard 5/4 in there too. But it's only when I listened on my studio monitors that I heard the (faint) but distinctive bass notes, the notion of having a structure with 5/4 disappeared instinctively.

 

I think it's possible to interpret anything a million different ways, but there are times when only one or two of them are going to be deemed actually correct. If I were hired to transcribe this track and then arrange it for band, I'd have to make a decision to use either a quick 4+4+4+6, or, a half-time 2+2+2+3. The decision would be based on context and style, just as Aleos said.

 

I could say that each measure of Brubeck's "Take Five" was written in a quick 9/8 followed by a straight measure of 2/4. This would account for the triplet feel in the first 3 beats and the straight feel in the last 2 beats. But I would be wrong about that, and, certainly no musician would feel comfortable interpreting swung triplets as a ridiculously fast measure of 9/8.

 

I don't think that there's any arrogance being expressed here. Finding the right combination of time signatures is a matter of understanding the style combined with finding a practical way to count it, for the purpose of other musicians playing along. That's not arrogant, IMO.

Edited June 26, 2012 by ski

[aleos]

 

I could say that each measure of Brubeck's "Take Five" was written in a quick 9/8 followed by a straight measure of 2/4. This would account for the triplet feel in the first 3 beats and the straight feel in the last 2 beats. But I would be wrong about that, and, certainly musician would feel comfortable interpreting swung triplets as a ridiculously fast measure of 9/8.

 

I don't think that there's any arrogance being expressed here. Finding the right combination of time signatures is a matter of understanding the style combined with finding a practical way to count it, for the purpose of other musicians playing along. That's not arrogant, IMO.

 

Good example with "Take Five"

 

And thank you.

[ski]

... Edited July 27, 2012 by ski

[aleos]

Another very important point to look at, is that the harmony changes, without question, every four beats. And a chord change is a pretty good indicator of a downbeat or the beginning of grouping.

To advance my point;

Little Joe plays 3 chords, and then a melodic idea.

I think that is universally accepted, right? Can't really be argued I don't think.

Then the next step would be to ask, are the chord changes of equal duration? Yes they are.

Then I would ask what kind of rhythm is filing up those measures (whatever they are) of chords? Without a too detailed transcription I could safely say that the is strumming a very typical guitar rhythm of; 1--2--3-and-4-and. (the beat 1 is on the low stings so it isn't as bright, especially with bass-less speakers, but is undoubtably when the harmony changes)

 

So, we have 3 equal length harmonic statements being performed. They are all being played with the exact same rhythm. And that rhythm is a very often played 4/4 rhythm. Can we agree on that?

 

Finally we have a very distinct and contrasting melodic statement. Based on our knowledge of the previous chords and their duration, we can assume that the downbeat is the first note of the melodic statement. The melodic statement then proceeds for 6 notes in equal time divisions that correspond directly with the 1-2-3-4 of the harmonic statements previous.

And then the whole part starts again.

 

Joe gave us all the info we need.

[Eriksimon]

OK, Aleos, I'm truly sorry if my sarcasm sensors were oversensitive and I thus mistook your words for arrogance/sarcasm. And Brubeck ("I hear you're mad about Brubeck! brldidli-ip Bru- beck!!!") is a no brainer countingwise, even if the 3 is not Viennese.

But, I must admit, I'm no music pro and it is just my amateur opinion that 2+2+2+3 divided by 4 is the same as 4+4+4+6 divided by 8.

 

I may be:

"Out in the great wide open, a rebel without a clue."

 

O, an here are 9 variations on "LilJoe the conundrumstrummer". The first one represents how I counted.

LJS 9 variations.zip

[aleos]

no problem Erik, and I am very serious about you beng lucky to have an ability to hear other plains of time. My improv teacher 12 years ago relayed to me the idea of hearing super fast tunes as ballads, and vice versa. In fast songs, you hear half time, or quarter or whatever. There's a million ways to divide it. South Indian musicians are the bad asses at this. The goal of this is to allow you to play (if you're improvising) longer more relaxed and thought-out statements. But it's hard to relax when time is whipping by. The way I practised this for years was to play easy songs with a metranome on set to it's lowest setting. The beat was every 2 bars or something. I had a lot of trouble with it.

You're totally right 2+2+2+3 is exactly the same as 4+4+4+6. In that respect I agree with you 100% it's only personal preference. And infact I wish I heard it as you do in the 2+2+2+3. That's what all the above mentioned practicing was about.

[Eriksimon]

Another very important point to look at, is that the harmony changes, without question, every four beats. And a chord change is a pretty good indicator of a downbeat or the beginning of grouping.

To advance my point;

Little Joe plays 3 chords, and then a melodic idea.

 

Yes. and: indicator.

I clearly think/hear/feel that it is in fact an introductory riff, an anacrusis, and its last note is in fact the downbeat. In that rythmic sceme of things his downstrums land on beats 2, 4 and 6 and that somehow feels right to me.

 

... we have 3 equal length harmonic statements being performed. They are all being played with the exact same rhythm. And that rhythm is a very often played 4/4 rhythm. Can we agree on that?

 

Yes.

It's just that each of those chords is only played for half a bar of that 4/4.

 

Finally we have a very distinct and contrasting melodic statement. Based on our knowledge of the previous chords and their duration, we can assume that the downbeat is the first note of the melodic statement.

 

Disagree. We can do that, but we don't have to. It's an anacrusis. Imho. The last note is the downbeat.

 

The melodic statement then proceeds for 6 notes in equal time divisions that correspond directly with the 1-2-3-4 of the harmonic statements previous.

And then the whole part starts again.

 

Yes, and yes, and yes, but I keep hearing that last note as in fact the first of the entire movement. And I am willing to take it as 4+4+4+6 anyway. Main reason: my percussiondrummiethingies, though it all "fits", don't really groove - at all! In fact, I still find it quite hard to count still, if Joe strums alone. I write "in fact" a lot. Sorry for that.

 

btw, I like it that your nickname sounds like you could be one of Pythgoras' students...

[aleos]

Good points. I'm no "pick-up" specialist but I think, and in my playing experience, an anacrusis usually is referring to melody entering before the downbeat, but I could be wrong. Since there is arguably no separate melody here (the high e going down to c# is still functioning harmonically IMHO) I think maybe a better term than anacrusis would be anticipation.

So if I follow you right, that would mean that every chord change (due to the equal temoral value of the group), and the melodic statement would start on the up upbeat. The only problem I see with this is that if you told the bass player this blueprint, the result may be less than harmonious, and probably wouldn't groove. And, if every chord/melodic statement of a piece is anticipated, dosen't that nulify anticipation? The point of it being that something enters early when we're not expecting it. Or the other instruments haven't gotten there.

Try playing a bass line to it. Think like a "cliche" bass player. Hit down beats. Play with Joe. ie, change when he changes. He is, in the end the boss of this song.

 

Aleos was going to be my hip hop name when I was a tribe called quest fanatic. I wish it were deeper.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Well, it's 4 to2, so you technical guys are out-voted (I very nearly finished my music degree, but it was a pretty whacked-out arts school...).

 

Little Joe totally changes chords on the off-beat. If you want to talk groove, speak to a reggae bassist.

 

Aleos; did my drum beat sound totally wrong? Plus, for the record, you didn't hit an on or an off beat with your percussion!

[ski]

Little Joe totally changes chords on the off-beat

 

 

Technical?

 

If in fact there's infinite room for interpretation (of which there isn't, but if one doesn't agree on every conceivable artistic interpretation then the words "arrogant" and perhaps even "oppression of opinion" would spring up) then why don't we just settle on the common denominator of 18/4 and call it a day?

 

Wait.. maybe it should be 18/2? Are we talking cut time or...

 

Hey, how about 18/8? Nah, that's not reggae enough.

 

Wait, wait... someone could argue that every beat is unique, so really we could notate this in 1/4 time. Or maybe 1/8. Or 1/2 in a kind of strange cut time that's half of the normal feel for cut time, but then every beat would be accounted for.

 

But then, what's a beat? Are we counting in quarters or eighths? Oh gawd, and what's the tempo?

 

Hmmm...

[aleos]

Aleos; did my drum beat sound totally wrong? Plus, for the record, you didn't hit an on or an off beat with your percussion!

 

That's my special two fingered post-modern technique of computer percussion. It'll be in vogue one day.

 

nice post ski. I say we give them 1/4.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

You arrogant m**********r Ski! Oppressing my opinion and treading on my dreams!

 

I think 1/8 is a time signature we can all agree on 8)

 

Aleos, unfortunately post-modern computer percussion went out of vogue when the 70s ended. Sorry to have to tell you that

 

[ski]

You arrogant m**********r Ski! Oppressing my opinion and treading on my dreams.

 

It's about f****** time someone had the cojones to stand up and say something!

 

:lol:

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

 

Between my cojones in this thread, and my "wheezing organ" in Carlos' Music Showcase one, I feel my tender parts have been talked about enough for a good few years around here

[ski]

Tender? Man, if you're gonna survive here at LPH you better learn to grow some made of steel. Or at least wear one of these...

 

[intention to post image of medieval chastity belt abandoned in deference to the youthful origins of this thread]

 

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

[treeboxterry]

I woud love to hear how you hear 5/4 in there. Please share.

 

I'd be glad to share.

 

I realize, that since I'm self-taught I may be calling something 5/4 and 4/4 that could really technically be something a little different... but I also know that no matter what you call it - you've got 5/? and 4/? strung together here.

 

Here is the simplest way I can think of to explain how I can count this as 5/4 then 4/4. This will take two hands and a foot... and don't laugh or you will screw it up...

 

First, start tapping your foot along with the tune's pulse to get in the groove ( it's about 100 bpm)... regardless of time signature.

 

Starting with the first chord (note) played, and considering that as the first pulse of "1"... on your left hand (could be your right hand), and with your hand held over a table or desktop - with the first downbeat - tap your little finger down as if you're pressing a piano key and hold it down. Then, with the next downbeat (pulse) add your ring finger, then your next finger then your pointing finger then your thumb. That will be your first 5.

 

When you've used up all 5 fingers on your first hand - keep going but with your right hand. When you get to your 4th digit.... switch back to your left hand and start over.

 

You can do this from beginning to end... and the cycle with chords and little guitar lead turnaround hits exactly consistently on each finger every time.

 

I know... it's like doing math by counting on your fingers... But it works every time.

 

Make some kind of crazy sense to anybody? Please say yes...

[Nublu]

Make some kind of crazy sense to anybody? Please say yes...

Yes.

I hear a cycle of 5 and a cycle of 4. Repeating

 

8) 8) 8) 8) 8),