Help needed with analog summing out of Logic 8

[estebanblanco]

I'm running Logic 8 on a Mac Mini, my interface is a Presonus Firestudio Project. I'm hoping to be able to use my Mackie 1402-VLZ mixer as an analog summing amp/mixer to give me the ability to have a different sound to some mixes.

 

I realize the 1402 isn't a top-of-the-line analog summing mixer. But if I can make this work I will eventually upgrade to a better unit. My goal is:

 

1) Send single tracks in groups (stems) to the Mackie to be mixed to stereo pairs back in Logic.

2) These stems would be drums, guitars, keys, strings, voices, etc.

3) Finally send the final stems back to the Mackie from Presonus and mix these final stems into the final stereo pair back to Logic and then be finalized and/or mastered as a finished piece of music.

 

Because the Presonus uses Out 1-2 as its main output to my monitors I've started with Out 3-4 as the first available pair for sending tracks to the Mackie.

 

Track 1: Drums : Out 3-4

Track 2: Bass : Out 5-6

Track 3: Guitars : Out 7-8

 

Each of these Outs go to channel inputs on the Mackie as left-right pairs, channel numbers matching with the Presonus outs to avoid confusion. I then route the mains left-right out of the Mackie to inputs 7 & 8 on the Presonus. I created a new track, in this session as Track 6 and set its in as Input 7-8. Track 6 is set to record.

 

When I begin recording I hear tracks 1-3 playing and if the left-right mains are brought up on the Mackie I hear that mix added to what I'm hearing through the monitors.

 

But while I'm mixing these stems to a stereo pair I only want to hear that mix in the monitors. It seems as though Logic is sending everything in all these tracks to the monitors as well as the mix coming from the Mackie into Track 6. The only track set to send to Out 1-2 is Track 6 and there is a Out 1-2 fader in Logic's mixer.

 

What's puzzling is that for each of the Outs I created in Logic there is a separate channel strip in the mixer (Out 3-4, Out 5-6, Out 7-8). Is the problem that each of these Out channel strips is sending to Master in Logic? What can I do with these Out channel strips to create the mixing environment I want to use?

 

I've attached an image of Logic as it's configured ready to record. I'm certain this is only a routing issue but I can't find the problem. Do you think I need to do something with the Presonus Universal Control application to reroute signal(s) at that point? If so please be as verbose as you can as that program's configuration is more than a little confusing to me.

[ski]

What's puzzling is that for each of the Outs I created in Logic there is a separate channel strip in the mixer (Out 3-4, Out 5-6, Out 7-8).

 

That's absolutely normal and expected when you assign channels to these outputs.

 

Is the problem that each of these Out channel strips is sending to Master in Logic?

 

No. Once you assign a channel to an output pair other than "stereo output" (Output 1/2) it will only appear at that output. However, you will want to make sure that if any of those channels are feeding reverbs or delays, etc. that they're routed to the appropriate output as well. For example, if you're feeding drums to a reverb, make sure the auxes hosting the reverb are routed to 3/4 as well (that is, if you want your drum stem to have the drum reverb on it).

 

What can I do with these Out channel strips to create the mixing environment I want to use?

 

You can use them to adjust the level of each of these separate output pairs. If no level adjustment is needed, then leave them alone (unity gain).

[shivermetimbers]

What you are basically doing is an exercise in futility. What you think you are doing is completely different than what you really want to do. Believe it or not, everything you need is in Logic.

[ski]

Shiv is allergic to hardware and thinks that if you can't do it in the box then it's not worth trying. Believe it or not, NOT everything you need is inside Logic. If that were the case then the scrapyards would be piled high with the chassis of rackmount gear, but that's decidedly not the case!

 

By doing this you're definitely going to make the mix sound "different". Whether that's a "good different" or "bad different" remains to be seen. It might just sound slightly different but noisier because you're running active analog electronics (all depends on how well you set your gain staging). In any case, I wouldn't discourage you from trying it. Who knows. No harm comes from experimenting with this kind of thing. Maybe tweaking the EQ's slightly or riding the faders in real time will add something to your mix that you can't get from Logic alone.

[shivermetimbers]

Shiv is allergic to hardware and thinks that if you can't do it in the box then it's not worth trying. Believe it or not, NOT everything you need is inside Logic. If that were the case then the scrapyards would be piled high with the chassis of rackmount gear, but that's decidedly not the case!

 

By doing this you're definitely going to make the mix sound "different". Whether that's a "good different" or "bad different" remains to be seen. It might just sound slightly different but noisier because you're running active analog electronics (all depends on how well you set your gain staging). In any case, I wouldn't discourage you from trying it. Who knows. No harm comes from experimenting with this kind of thing. Maybe tweaking the EQ's slightly or riding the faders in real time will add something to your mix that you can't get from Logic alone.

 

 

That's why everyone is still recording on analog tape and a mackie mixer.

 

Everything you WANT is not inside Logic, but all you need is in there (within the context of this issue).

 

Here is why you are wasting your time.

 

I have already tried this on a mackie mixer. Don't get me wrong, I like my mackie mixer, but there was no added value to the end result. Just more wires and forced limited sub mixes that cannot be undone. Futile

 

You have a 12 channel mixer and that means 12 mono tracks or 6 stereo tracks. Unfortunately, your audio interface will only let you have 8 mono tracks or 4 stereo tracks. Futile.

 

I guarantee you will Eq in Logic and then EQ on the mackie. Can't undo it once printed. Futile.

 

If the Mackie is left at unity and pretends to be a 'summing' mixer, then everything will be done in Logic. The use of the mixer is then pointless. Futile.

 

If you try to leave Logic alone and do things on the mixer, once again the process becomes destructive. Futile.

 

Blah, Blah, Blah.

 

 

Go ahead an experiment. Please do, in fact I beg you to. You will get all excited until you find that using the mixer becomes burdensome. You did a great mix and moved on to the next song. A week later you decide to go back to the first song to 'fix' a few things and realize you didn't note all the mixer settings. Now what? A you going to start a notebook of mixer settings? Futile.

 

For me to type any more is futile, because all you are doing is staring at the image attachment of my allergy (if it is still there).

[ski]

That's why everyone is still recording on analog tape and a mackie mixer.

 

Uh oh, here we go...

[shivermetimbers]

http://www.skewsme.com/tchkung/reel2reel_c.gif

Boy! That sounds great!

[estebanblanco]

What you are basically doing is an exercise in futility. What you think you are doing is completely different than what you really want to do. Believe it or not, everything you need is in Logic.

 

That's great Shiv, thanks for being so helpful and making me want to spend more time on this forum site!

 

If you read everything I wrote you'll see that this is for experimentation. I've read much of what a lot of folks are doing with higher end summing amps/mixers and I want to make sure it's possible with my current interface & DAW. If this works, my plan is to upgrade to a 'real' summing mixer, but I won't bore you with those details as you're obviously close-minded.

 

I've listened to A-B mixes with essentially what I'm using hardware-wise and there is a small but perceptible difference. I've also listened to A-B mixes using a range of higher end summing mixers combined with mid-range and high-end convertors and there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in the overall sound of the stems of those mixes and the final mixes. There is a mathematical difference between the two scenarios that does indeed play out with a good pair of monitors and (more importantly) through a good pair of ears. My intention is to see how this plays in my studio through my monitors. My intention is not to try to sound like a Neve console running through a SSL MADI convertor.

 

If you're already recording and mixing for a living my hat's off to you. But I doubt that is the case as the folks I've met and corresponded with online who do this sort of work for a living give help where it's needed and leave the bashing and trolling to the likes of you. And if you're taking the time to add to a thread but all you're doing is bashing, you're wasting my time and everyone else's. You remind me of the Usenet trolls I had to put up with back in the day.

 

Good luck...

[triplets]

Can you see the signal going out of each pair you created?

[estebanblanco]

What's puzzling is that for each of the Outs I created in Logic there is a separate channel strip in the mixer (Out 3-4, Out 5-6, Out 7-8).

 

That's absolutely normal and expected when you assign channels to these outputs.

 

Is the problem that each of these Out channel strips is sending to Master in Logic?

 

No. Once you assign a channel to an output pair other than "stereo output" (Output 1/2) it will only appear at that output. However, you will want to make sure that if any of those channels are feeding reverbs or delays, etc. that they're routed to the appropriate output as well. For example, if you're feeding drums to a reverb, make sure the auxes hosting the reverb are routed to 3/4 as well (that is, if you want your drum stem to have the drum reverb on it).

 

What can I do with these Out channel strips to create the mixing environment I want to use?

 

You can use them to adjust the level of each of these separate output pairs. If no level adjustment is needed, then leave them alone (unity gain).

 

Yes, I'd want to leave them at unity and mix at the 1402. Since I'm already getting that mix into Track 6 all I need to do is find a way to remove the full mix of what's going on in Logic and only hear what's being printed to Track 6. From responses here and other forums I may need an external digital audio recorder. I do have one that I use for field recording/sampling but I've been hoping to avoid that additional step in this process.

 

The complication with that scenario is monitoring that 2-channel mix. I could put in a monitor selector switch device, it would take the 2-channel output of the Presonus and my field recorder. I could more easily switch between those two devices then.

 

And to avoid more arguments on the merits of this scenario I'll simply add that my focus is becoming more on mixing, both my projects and those of others. I want this as an option to be able to apply different analog make-up stage pre-amps between the summing mixer and whatever ends up recording the 2-channel mixes (ether stems or the final mix). I will appreciate any help on accomplishing this end but will ignore any additional trolls like Shiv's and simply stand by my reasons for doing this.

 

Thank you!

[estebanblanco]

Can you see the signal going out of each pair you created?

 

Yes, they head out of the Presonus, into the Mackie. The Mackie's main outs do send its 2-channel mix back to Track 6 in Logic and it does print. I can solo Track 6 on playback and hear the mix of the stems.

 

I need to isolate Track 6 so *this* is all i hear in my monitors while Logic is recording, printing the Mackie's 2-channel mix to Track 6.

[shivermetimbers]

I don't see how this is 'trolling,' It seems I have answered in terms of the mackie mixer instead of as a "How do I get Logic to ... " kind of a question. In any event, your solution is an easy one.

 

I will appreciate any help on accomplishing this end but will ignore any additional trolls like Shiv's and simply stand by my reasons for doing this. Thank you!

 

So be it Steven. 8)

[triplets]

Can you see the signal going out of each pair you created?

 

Yes, they head out of the Presonus, into the Mackie. The Mackie's main outs do send its 2-channel mix back to Track 6 in Logic and it does print. I can solo Track 6 on playback and hear the mix of the stems.

 

I need to isolate Track 6 so *this* is all i hear in my monitors while Logic is recording, printing the Mackie's 2-channel mix to Track 6.

 

So what happens when you solo track 6 while it's recording?

[estebanblanco]

I thought of that on the way home tonight. I'll give that a try shortly and repory back.

[estebanblanco]

When I solo Track 6 while recording I hear nothing at all. Which makes sense. This has to do with where solo happens in the flowchart of the Logic. With 6 solo'ed it means I can't hear what all other tracks are doing, which means they can't send anything to to their various Outs.

 

What is very interesting and rather disconcerting is what I do hear when I solo Out 3-4, Out 5-6 and Out 7-8. The mix coming from the Mackie is now louder and the mix of tracks in Logic drops WAY down in volume. And then if I also solo Out 1-2 I hear even more of the Mackie mix.

 

Looking at the attachment in my original post you can see I have no effects applied to any tracks or outs. Only routing changes are in place. If there is any other information you'd like to see please ask. I can get more screen shots or cut & paste data from Prefs, etc.

[triplets]

I think you have to create output objects in the environment for your output pairs so that you can "solo-safe" them by control-clicking the solo button on those new output objects. That way when you solo track six it will include those outputs.

[estebanblanco]

I think you have to create output objects in the environment for your output pairs so that you can "solo-safe" them by control-clicking the solo button on those new output objects. That way when you solo track six it will include those outputs.

 

Right now if I ctrl-click solo on the Out channel strips they show a red slash through the solo button. Is this what you're referring to? If I leave these solos selected like this and record with Track 6 soloed I have the same situation as before.

 

What's interesting now, is that with those solo buttons still ctrl-clicked, if I solo Track 6 and play back what I just recorded I still hear everything else playing. But if I undo the ctrl-click solos and Track 6 is soloed for playback it is indeed all I hear.

[triplets]

Yes, the red slash means it's solo-safe'd and it will play even when other tracks are soloed.

[estebanblanco]

Yes, the red slash means it's solo-safe'd and it will play even when other tracks are soloed.

 

I've attached a fresh screen capture so you can see what's set up currently. Pay no attention to the waveform in what was recorded to Track 6. That was me bring the Mackie's mains up & down to judge what I was hearing in the monitors.

[triplets]

How come track 6 in the arrange window is armed, and in the mixer it's not?

To hear the signal you have to arm the track in the mixer.

[estebanblanco]

How come track 6 in the arrange window is armed, and in the mixer it's not?

To hear the signal you have to arm the track in the mixer.

 

It flashes when armed and the screen short function doesn't always get flashing buttons. I'll try again.

 

OK, here it is, prep'ed to record. FYI, Tracks 4 & 5 are muted because these are not involved in this test, they aren't heading out anywhere.

[triplets]

So can you post a screenshot while playing/recording?

[estebanblanco]

So can you post a screenshot while playing/recording?

 

Hmm they reversed. Anyway, first one us playing 2nd one is recording.

[triplets]

Puzzling, to say the least.

Did the level drop when recording? Looks like that from the pic.

Have you tried the I/O plugin in Logic? It's under Utility Plugins.

[estebanblanco]

Puzzling, to say the least.

Did the level drop when recording? Looks like that from the pic.

Have you tried the I/O plugin in Logic? It's under Utility Plugins.

 

No, I hadn't. But I just tried it with settings reflecting what's showing in the I/O area of Track 6's channel strip. Attached is a shot of it recording. I get the same results.

[triplets]

Does the Presonus have a software mixer?

Also, don't you have to use 3 i/o inserts to have all outputs come back to Logic?

[estebanblanco]

Does the Presonus have a software mixer?

Also, don't you have to use 3 i/o inserts to have all outputs come back to Logic?

 

Yes, it's called Universal Control.

 

Where would the I/O Inserts be placed? On each track heading out of Logic to Presonus, Tracks 1 thru 3 or on Out 3-4, 5-6 & 7-8?

[triplets]

If you put it on the outputs I think you have to create input objects in the environment for the I/O to get the signal back.

 

Do the levels in Logic match the Presonus levels on its software mixer?

[estebanblanco]

If you put it on the outputs I think you have to create input objects in the environment for the I/O to get the signal back.

 

Do the levels in Logic match the Presonus levels on its software mixer?

 

Yes they do. Here's a new attachment including Universal Control. What you see driving levels up on Mic 7 & Mic 8 is the 2-channel mains output of the Mackie.

[triplets]

Ok, I'm a little lost now, so what was the problem again?