Markisflippinsweet Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I've read many things on what the output level should show as its peaking in a mix before being exported for mastering. I read that it didn't necessarily matter, to have it around -2 or -3 dB (lowest being -10 dB). Before, I just have mixed it to where it's sounded good, and exported it for mastering, worrying about going over 0dB clipping there in the mastering project, but I want to make it perfect this time. What do you guys think I should keep the peak at in my mix? I want to master it as loud as I can. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 From Lagerfeldt's site: http://www.onlinemastering.dk/pdf/mixdown-for-mastering-tips.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markisflippinsweet Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 Thanks! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 You're welcome, you might find some other guides and links from his site useful too: http://www.popmusic.dk/links-us.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medway Studios Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I've read many things on what the output level should show as its peaking in a mix before being exported for mastering. I read that it didn't necessarily matter, to have it around -2 or -3 dB (lowest being -10 dB). Before, I just have mixed it to where it's sounded good, and exported it for mastering, worrying about going over 0dB clipping there in the mastering project, but I want to make it perfect this time.What do you guys think I should keep the peak at in my mix? I want to master it as loud as I can. Mark Yes it doesn't matter as long as there is no clipping or very low, the pdf is a great guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristancalvaire Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread- but Lagerfeldt's guide here reminded me of a question I've always had. Why does a file need to be bounced with headroom? So long as the bounced file never clipped, isn't a file bounced with the highest peak at or below 0 decibels gained down by the mastering engineer 2 or 3 decibels, exactly the same as if the file was bounced with the peak at -2 or -3? Or does this have something to do with saving the master engineer time to degain it, as someone like Lagerfeldt will be working with analogue equipment? Does converting from the floating point environment to an integer format like 24 bit cause damage if it's over -3 db or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Perhaps this is a topic for a new thread- but Lagerfeldt's guide here reminded me of a question I've always had. Why does a file need to be bounced with headroom? So long as the bounced file never clipped, isn't a file bounced with the highest peak at or below 0 decibels gained down by the mastering engineer 2 or 3 decibels, exactly the same as if the file was bounced with the peak at -2 or -3? Or does this have something to do with saving the master engineer time to degain it, as someone like Lagerfeldt will be working with analogue equipment? Does converting from the floating point environment to an integer format like 24 bit cause damage if it's over -3 db or something? http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=290263 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristancalvaire Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I'm not so much concerned about the headroom number, so much as I'm still not really sure why the Mastering engineer needs me to de-gain the file for him or her. Is there any difference between a file bounced by me with a -6 dB peak, and a file with a 0dB peak gained down -6 by the masterer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 From the thread Shiv linked: It's got to do with three things: a) the amount of amplitude change that can happen when the phase is rotated during minimum phase equalizing (rarely more than a couple of dB) b) overshoots during D/A (0 dBFS+ signals from a <0 dBFS signal, these can in fact be very loud and cause distortion but that's usually audible only after mastering because of a high RMS combined with hard limiting and clipping) c) analog calibration matching All of these worries can be avoided by the mastering engineer simply lowering the signal digitally in the first step. It's better if you do the lowering instead since this avoids an unnecessary processing step for the ME. So it's not related to the actual file which is fine all the way up to 0 dFBS. It's related to what happens later, and watching your peak level makes the life of the ME easier, and in theory results in a better master since there's one less processing step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristancalvaire Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 From the thread Shiv linked: "All of these worries can be avoided by the mastering engineer simply lowering the signal digitally in the first step. It's better if you do the lowering instead since this avoids an unnecessary processing step for the ME." Ah, I missed this little thing. So, it's as I expected- just to save a step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherking Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 From the thread Shiv linked: "All of these worries can be avoided by the mastering engineer simply lowering the signal digitally in the first step. It's better if you do the lowering instead since this avoids an unnecessary processing step for the ME." Ah, I missed this little thing. So, it's as I expected- just to save a step. our mastering engineer here in ny says he needs some 'breathing room' (to work with EQ etc); and he always brings the level up to 0db by the end. so we send mixes about -6db... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Jackson Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 our mastering engineer here in ny says he needs some 'breathing room' (to work with EQ etc); and he always brings the level up to 0db by the end. so we send mixes about -6db... Hey fisherking, May I ask who you use for mastering in NYC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 From the thread Shiv linked: "All of these worries can be avoided by the mastering engineer simply lowering the signal digitally in the first step. It's better if you do the lowering instead since this avoids an unnecessary processing step for the ME." Ah, I missed this little thing. So, it's as I expected- just to save a step. I see it more as not providing an unnecessary step - you're the one with control of the output fader when you bounce the file, why provide a file that will have to be attenuated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherking Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 our mastering engineer here in ny says he needs some 'breathing room' (to work with EQ etc); and he always brings the level up to 0db by the end. so we send mixes about -6db... Hey fisherking, May I ask who you use for mastering in NYC? PM'd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markisflippinsweet Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 So let's say I export my mix, peaking at -6 dB, and I get done doing all my mastering stuff; but I'm not hitting a 0 dB peak (yet close to, like -1 and such). Do I just turn up the gain to get it there, or should I leave it as is naturally? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 So let's say I export my mix, peaking at -6 dB, and I get done doing all my mastering stuff; but I'm not hitting a 0 dB peak (yet close to, like -1 and such). Do I just turn up the gain to get it there, or should I leave it as is naturally? Mark Normalize it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Normalize it. Mark, If you haven't got the output level you want, then you haven't finished "all your mastering stuff". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markisflippinsweet Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Normalize?! I thought normalizing what the most hated feature of any program, ever! By finishing all the stuff, I mean finished adjusting to get the sound I want, just volume is being throttled, as by which number the peak itself is showing. As I said, do I just turn it up? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Don't just turn it up because it's not reaching 0dB. Does it sound better or just louder? Big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Normalize?! I thought normalizing what the most hated feature of any program, ever! By finishing all the stuff, I mean finished adjusting to get the sound I want, just volume is being throttled, as by which number the peak itself is showing. As I said, do I just turn it up? I love the Normalize feature in Logic's Sample editor, however, the normalize part of the bounce section is rather useless. You indicated that you want to 'hit 0dB peak.' What better way than to normalize it? So let's say I export my mix, peaking at -6 dB, and I get done doing all my mastering stuff; but I'm not hitting a 0 dB peak (yet close to, like -1 and such). Do I just turn up the gain to get it there, or should I leave it as is naturally? 'Mastering' started out as part of the vinyl production process and is now a preparation format for iTunes. Realistically, you aren't 'mastering' anything. Adding plugins on the Stereo output channel strip is not Mastering. The term is now loosely tossed around by amateur laptop engineers who claim to do mastering, but somehow get it all wrong. Your main goal is to get a clean, transparent mix with no mud and not to slam everything to get it as loud as you can without clipping. It is possible within Logic to get 0dB with no inter-sample modulation distortion, and an RMS value around -8dB. That is pretty loud and is not something you want to play back with the volume control on 11. Even if you do succeed at getting a clean 0dB inside of Logic, doesn't mean the device you play it back on will be free of the inter-sample modulation distortion. In essence, to make it 'louder,' you want to limit the peak and raise the RMS level a little. It sounds easy, but there is more to it if you want professional results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markisflippinsweet Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Oh, I thought the only normalizing was in the bounce menu. True, on the essence of what mastering is. My main goal is that, yes. How does one go about adjusting RMS leveling? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplets Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Put an Adaptive Limiter on the output and you'll get your 0dB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markisflippinsweet Posted June 27, 2012 Author Share Posted June 27, 2012 Alright, I'll do that, or use my LA-3A modeled plug-in in limiting mode. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facepalm Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 use my LA-3A modeled plug-in in limiting mode. Wrong tool for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 What do you guys think I should keep the peak at in my mix? I want to master it as loud as I can. Mark This is a simulated pic of your PEAK wave and the rest of the wave to help demonstrate the concept of keeping the peak at 0dB while raising the average (RMS) levels. The intent of doing this is not primarily to make the mix 'louder,' but rather to level the audio playing field so that you can better 'normalize' the track up to 0dB. Before you even get to this point, you should have done a decent mix. By that I mean having all the parts where they should be so that they all can work together in the frequency spectrum. People enroll in two or four yr classes to learn this, and/or spend a lifetime perfecting mixing techniques - so don't expect a quickie post via a forum to enlighten you. 'Loudness' for only one song is relative to all the other songs. So 'As loud as it can be' for one song can be a different volume level than another song that is 'as loud as it can be.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Bing-o. Shiv, that waveform looks eerily reminiscent of the mast on a pirate ship peeking (sorry, "peaking") over the horizon of some stormy seas. Arr matey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Bing-o. Shiv, that waveform looks eerily reminiscent of the mast on a pirate ship peeking (sorry, "peaking") over the horizon of some stormy seas. Arr matey. Bing-o Mastering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 How the hell did I miss such a glaringly obvious pun??? I'm ripping up my Punn State University diploma as we speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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