Scale Limited Midi Input Macro Builder Environment Help

[SLIMPYJAMAS]

Greetings everyone... hope u are all good. This is my first post and its a dumb one... but please be gentle

 

Before I go further I just want to say that this is an appeal post. I hoped someone might be able to help me with an environment to simulate the scale midi plugin which comes with Ableton Live. I have a rudimentary understanding of midi but not enough to suss this out... it's driving me mad.

 

I am trying to build the environment outlined in soundonsound March 2005 and I am hoping someone can help. I imagine it would be a 5 minute job for an expert user but for an environment shy person like myself it is a hopeless cause. I have tried to follow the instructions they have outlined to build a scale input limiting macro library but it has only ended in frustration. I think I have the modules right but I can't follow the wiring instructions given in the article. I have attached my most recent attempt in an image file. Can anyone advise me how to correct it? (I know I might have made some REALLY stupid errors so apologies in advance...) Here is the article with instructions on creating the environment macro, which are really just the middle section of the article...

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/logicnotes.htm

 

 

I am hoping to use this to build a feature similar to Melodyne's Scale snap or Abletons Scale midi plugin. I have read around google and noticed other people who are looking for something similar. I basically need the midi input data to snap bum notes to adjacent notes which cohere to a user defined scale. Hoping to find a solution that I'll be able to use when inputting from the midi keyboard but also which responds to played back midi regions. I need something which allows you to map scales across the entire keyspan quickly on the fly for a given project... or else something which is easy to work with to build a library. If I can't quickly step input a scale I hoped to map all the modes of the major scale as well as exotic cultural world scales (i.e. arabic ragas, japanese scales, chinese, jewish, hungarian minor etc etc). Oh ... and I hoped for a device which could transpose easily and which could be bypassed/turned on or off. In short I am basically looking for Ableton's scale plugin verbatim. However I know this does't exist and I really hope Logic's next major release implements this feature... which, I imagine, would be easy to code for a professional programmer.

 

Now I realize this has been addressed before to some extent. Many thanks to Jordito for his scale remapper, and fuzzfilth for his scalic modulator which I have enjoyed playing with. These environments are great within their own right but they are not as hands on as I have described above, they still require a bit of theory to get the best out of them, and they don't feature as comprehensive a scale library as I hoped. I am also aware that Logics global scale type can be changed in the score tab under Logic's General Preferences. However, this only applies to Logics default instruments and it deviates Logics tuning from the Western tempered scale without representing things in a workable way within the piano roll editor. I'd love to find something more visual that would allow me to research a scale, map it in a visually referable way, play and record it and play it back with editing capabilities before transposing it and then turning it off. Anyone familiar with the 'Play Versions' of EastWest's ethnic libraries (RA, Gypsy, Silk) might have an idea of the sort of thing I am looking for...

 

I realise I should really work on my keyboard skills and scale theory and I'm hoping to avoid suggestions along these lines. I understand that my intended approach would not be an instant fix to musical ingenuity and nor do I believe it to be a shortcut to great song writing or a substitute to musical study. Whilst it might seem like a cop out I do require something that will help me access certain musical territories in an inspiring and gratifying way so that I could quickly realise new sound scapes and develop them instinctively... and also refer the ideologies back to my guitar/bass in a non interrupted way...

 

The reason I need something flexible, intuitive and visual is for media music work which will involve delivering a fully composed, mixed and mastered soundscape every day. It's a quota pressured environment and I'll have to do a spectrum of stuff without time to work things out, research them, look them up and craft out a sound lovingly ... I might have to do a space odyssey one day, a string and brass thing the next day, a blue jazz lounge the next, then an oriental dynasty, a reggae skank and an Arabic epic etc etc. You can imagine it'll be a challenge for someone like myself with very basic keyboard skills who is more at home producing Indie/pop/funk/hip hop/reggae/rock/electronic stuff. I need help to get into understanding how different modes fit over different chord cadences to develop more colorful harmonic templates rather than rely on simpler diatonic song writing and pentatonic scales which, effective though they might be, can't cope with the scope I will have to deliver.

 

I have been trying to source something for a while and unless a user knows of an environment or a macro of some kind I don't think there is anything in the public domain. I am sure many users would benefit from any resources or insight this community might share. if anyone is aware of anything... or has a suggestion of an alternative work around, I would be very thankful if you could offer some help. Apologies for the essay and for being a noob. I just wanted to define the problem as clearly as possible. A huge thanks in advance to anyone who might be able to help with the environment macros from the soundonsound article or just offer advice on any other options I might not know of. Many ... many ... many thanks. Yours in hope... S

[ski]

As an avid environment programmer (who is often hired to create custom environments), I'll give you my sincere advice after having read your post: you're going to spend more time tweaking and troubleshooting the environment programming you seek than is worth the trouble. You could easily spend that same amount of time practicing some scales.

 

I know you said you wanted to avoid this kind of advice, but based on what you said I honestly that's your best approach to your situation as a whole. In the end it will actually end up taking pressure off you and enhance your creativity. And it will also give you the added benefit of being able to take personal pride in not being a programmer-composer.

 

Machines (i.e., environment programming) will also prove to be a double-edged sword. In as much as it might help you form the scales and tonalities you want, it will inherently limit you. Hey, you want something that's Arabic flavored? Just play these notes.

 

C  C#  E  F  G  G#  G  F  E  C#  C

 

Now play them in a different order. Any order. Random order, doesn't matter.

 

Now play them in a different order yet again, this time not resolving on C.

 

Voila, you're now practicing an Arabic-tinged scale. Sure, maybe it's a little bit "Aladdin" LOL but what the hey, it took you less time to do that then program up a bunch of environment stuff.

 

Alternatively, if those other programs give you the features you want, why not just use them and (again) save yourself a whole lot of trouble?

[SLIMPYJAMAS]

Hi Ski & thanks for the response.

 

Well perhaps you are right. It's so easy to get distracted by software and the tech side of things but I have had mixed success rates with these sort of experiments in the past... and sometimes I have wasted days doing things which seem totally unrelated to music... honestly thats the biggest criticism I have of my own musicianship since I got into production some 10 years ago. I can lock tight to a click precisely, play cleanly and accurately... but I have lost a lot of exuberance, flair and some amount of inspiration. I need people like yourself to remind me that its all about the music at the end of the day, and that a VDU screen is not a good stimulus.

 

The truth is that I am anxious about this job opportunity and I want to have as many resources available to choose to use (or not) on any given day ... say, if I have to deliver frequently and can't afford to struggle when I've had a slow morning :/ Just don't wanna mess this one up. I actually know quite a few scales on the guitar - all the western scales and modes and quite a few exotic ones. However my grasp of them is non-academic and I struggle to understand how they relate to chords and how to mix them into each other. My understanding is certainly not practical enough to apply to the keyboard without counting on my fingers and umm-ing and ahh-ing. Duuurrr. I have always enjoyed jazz and classical and I one day hope to be able to write chordal structures which are capable of expressing the vast range of human emotions that those genres can reach.

 

I take your advice. I need to sit down and think about these scales more closely... rather than just noodle away with them on the guitar or use the notes to construct obviously voiced chords, I should consider how the accidental notes deviate from the major scale and what that means harmonically. A few experiments will hopefully show what colors can be achieved...

 

Cheers for the Arabic Scale. Some of the chords it reveals convey a very disturbing sense of tension and I will enjoy discovering more music with it.

 

Thanks again mate... most appreciated.

 

S

[ski]

8)

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

To add to Ski's advice, I would strongly recommend some lessons with a good guitar teacher. Just two or three opportunities to talk about the basis of music theory will pay huge dividends into your own explorations. I'm also a self-taught guitarist, and I figured out fairly large swathes of scales, and like you had a much harder time relating that to chords. When I took my music composition degree (at a pretty experimental arts college - music qualifications were not necessary), instrument lessons were part of my first year. I was dreading them because of my lack of theory, but thanks to a teacher very gifted at knowing what would benefit students and applying a good amount of pressure (I'd always get brain-freeze panic at least three times per lesson), I now have a much greater perspective and understanding of the music I make, as well as needing much less trial and error to get the musical effects I want.

 

Telephone-interview a few local teachers in your area, tell them you want to know about chords, scale tetrachords (what scales are made from) and the like, and that you're interested in theory, not improving your guitar chops. Hopefully you'll find someone you can benefit from.

 

Honestly, having a real person you can speak to and ask questions is a whole world away from trying to learn from books, especially when you're just getting started.

[CarlosUnderground]

A friend of mine is a guitar teacher and just talking with him about this stuff helps allot. Afterwards, i read a book and it makes more sence. I think a good read coupled with a "coach" can really help one grasp the inner workings of music theory.

[treeboxterry]

I realise I should really work on my keyboard skills and scale theory and I'm hoping to avoid suggestions along these lines.

 

I read your post with a great deal of interest... having asked around for a way to achieve exactly what you're asking for...in these forums and others. I was referring to that capability as pitch quantizing to a scale or mode.

 

It seems that it doesn't matter how well your goal/question is worded (and yours is very clear) people just can't resist suggesting that keyboard practice, studying music theory and other ideas are ultimately a better solution. I personally feel replies like that are totally missing the point.

 

But, I guess they are right in some small way, though - at least until Logic programmers add that capability that you want. So, I would suggest that you use the Logic feedback feature to describe and request this capability, mentioning that those other softwares already do this. Maybe we will get lucky, and eventually have this feature in our toolkit.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I just thought that you could get somewhere toward pitch quantizing with the EXS. Load in zones tuned to the notes in a scale, make sure pitch is not checked and stretch the zones to cover the keyboard.

 

It seems that it doesn't matter how well your goal/question is worded (and yours is very clear) people just can't resist suggesting that keyboard practice, studying music theory and other ideas are ultimately a better solution. I personally feel replies like that are totally missing the point.

 

I think the points made here were that learning music is, at the moment, easier than trying to programme any kind of scale quantization in Logic. You got a few different views based on practical experience, none preaching from an ideological standpoint or giving in to some masochistic urge to force people into music lessons.

 

Personally, I could have easily not replied to this post, to but I wanted to share my experience in a genuine effort to help SLIMPY JAMAS.

[treeboxterry]

I just thought that you could get somewhere toward pitch quantizing with the EXS. Load in zones tuned to the notes in a scale, make sure pitch is not checked and stretch the zones to cover the keyboard.

 

It seems that it doesn't matter how well your goal/question is worded (and yours is very clear) people just can't resist suggesting that keyboard practice, studying music theory and other ideas are ultimately a better solution. I personally feel replies like that are totally missing the point.

 

I think the points made here were that learning music is, at the moment, easier than trying to programme any kind of scale quantization in Logic. You got a few different views based on practical experience, none preaching from an ideological standpoint or giving in to some masochistic urge to force people into music lessons.

 

Personally, I could have easily not replied to this post, to but I wanted to share my experience in a genuine effort to help SLIMPY JAMAS.

 

J-Sleaze... I didn't mean to sound critical of your suggestions. They are good ones. I often read your posts - and enjoy them. I was commenting more on the almost universal response I've seen, and had, to asking about this pitch quantizing idea via a menu item in Logic. A very high percentage of people make suggestions similar to yours... with good intentions - but not really realistic in the short term.

 

Many others who replied to my earlier posts about this idea, seem to think there is something wrong with a musician who wants to use a computer to do what it's meant to do - that is - help us do things quickly. A few people posted links to threads that did offer useful information on chord memorizers or other environment objects that might be useful in a less efficient way than the OP was asking about.

 

I posted a similar question a while ago on this forum - and got a lot of interesting suggestions. In the end, I decided to try the Logic feedback route... with a thorough explanation of what I was asking for. Obviously - we haven't seen any response from the Logic programmers yet... but I still hope for that feature. As I said then - this capability goes back to Opcode's Studio Vision, a great piece of software. So, I'm sure some software programmer will eventually stumble on this idea and make it happen.

 

Honestly hope I didn't sound harsh in this or my earlier post on this... I just hate using those emoticons to show that I'm actually smiling...

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

That's cool Terry, I didn't take your post as harsh, and I remember your old thread about this. I agree that you can never have too many tools, and it could well be cool to have an aeolian melody transformed to phrygian or whatever. But, for good or ill, Logic is mainly designed to assist with technical procedures, and not artistic ones.

 

I don't know if you already knew about this, and I've never used the Chord Memorizer, but I spotted this free MacProVideo tutorial about it, and I don't see why you couldn't, for example, set all your white keys to play any scale you want: http://www.macprovideo.com/hub/logic-pro/logic-pro-environment-a-cordial-one-using-chord-memorizers

 

I gave in to the smiley thing eventually, having a little facial expression avatar does reduce misunderstood intentions

[Jordi Torres]

and I don't see why you couldn't, for example, set all your white keys to play any scale you want

 

Scale Remapper

 

J.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

and I don't see why you couldn't, for example, set all your white keys to play any scale you want

 

Scale Remapper

 

J.

 

Ah, didn't know you used the Chord Memorizer for that. I never read that thread very closely.

 

I'm glad I didn't have access to this kind of thing when I first started with DAWs, because I'm sure I woud have used it. Even though I'm rubbish on a keyboard, I'd be a hundred times worse if I didn't have to struggle to learn a few scales and chords, and just used single finger chords and played any scale I wanted on all the white notes. Everytime I was in the same room as a real piano I'd die a little inside.

 

So, I don't feels it's cheating in the normal sense, but for me I'd feel I was cheating myself out of skills and knowledge (the perspective to see the context - ie. where the notes actually belong and the working knowledge that imparts). Even on a subtle scale, any activity that involves coordination affects change in your neural system - and so changes you.

 

Thinking about it, while I don't care what other people do or what tools they use, I do feel quite strongly about this for me. Learning is its own reward, and it reaps many benefits beside the initial goal. *steps off soap box...*

[SLIMPYJAMAS]

Guys thanks for all the responses...

 

It seems the general message is 'no' ... there is no such scale thingumajig and I need to do some homework. Point taken. I might get some keyboard lessons in the hope of gleaning a few bits of insight.

 

I never hoped to use a scale input thing to write amazing symphonies. I am sure I can write a few soundscapes and if I am asked to produce something to sit behind a piece of dialogue about Balinese culture the first thing I would do is watch a few youtube vids and do a search on Balinese rhythms and scales etc etc. I just get nervous about going in one day and not being inspired... and then still not having a basic arrangement mapped out by the time I return from lunch.

 

Let's not forget the implications of the challenge. I'll be required to write, program, record, add foleys/FX, edit to speech, mix and master a full 5 minute length composition ready to deliver at the end of every 8 hour working day. There's no space for 'my ears are fatigued and i'll give them a rest... as I can't see the wood for all the trees', or 'i'll do a revised mix tomorrow'. If I haven't written something by 12 everyday then the rest of the work will be rushed and at the end of the day the boss won't be happy. Surely we all have occasional days when the creative juices don't seem to flow? I didn't want to 'cheat' compositions per say. I just hoped to weave a safety net so that if I struggle to write something 'Mongolian' by mid day on day 6 I could try dialing in a 'Mongolian' sample and play with it using a scale thingymagig... just to get a few ideas flowing before disengaging it. Even if it was just a 3 minute process. I'm just trying to be resourceful and prepared and to arm myself with all the tools I'll need to do a good job.

 

Anyway... I do appreciate the advice. I have tried constructing melodies rooted in the 7 major modes and played them off against a chord cadence based around the root chord of the major scale. I have noticed the colorations possible by rooting the following progressions around the various different scale degrees. I doubt Mozart is turning in his grave and I am trying to study further about how the accidental notes revealed by the scales can influence the choice of extended chords. It's a bit baffling but at least I am taking your advice.

 

Thanks again everyone... it's good to be part of this forum... wish me luck :/

[ski]

SLIMPY,

 

FWIW, it never gets easier. It just gets more challenging. But here, challenge isn't something to dread. After all, you're doing music. Music is inherently flexible. Composing is painful, and it's also joyful. And despite treeboxterry's ignorant comments (sorry, but that's truly how I feel) I think ultimately you'll find that exploring with your fingers and your mind will produce better and faster results than trying to use "the machine" to generate music for you.

 

I mean, damn, you just finished constructing melodies in 7 modes, etc. Wow, that's amazing. And you'd never be able to get a real creative handle over that kind of thing (or learn anything from it) by getting a machine-based process to generate it.

 

Based solely on what you've said, in some ways you seem woefully underqualified for this gig, but in other ways you seem like you're perfectly qualified (!) though it's all about your fear and anxiety getting in the way. But for perspective, very few composers can write 5 minutes of music a day. You have to be very experienced and free-thinking to be able to do that. By contrast, if you have machines write music for you, think: how much time would you spend editing that stuff to further shape it into a plausible musical idea? Probably a lot. So keep working with your fingers and your mind. It's what musicians and composers have been doing for centuries. And in the short time that we've had computers during those centuries, they still haven't changed the face or the method of quality musical composition, save, perhaps, for the utter convenience of drum loops (thank gawd!)