LA, USC & the Mixing/Mastering Field

[tristancalvaire]

Hello, all!

 

I'm currently vacationing here in Los Angeles and decided to check out a few schools around here; I've gone to UCLA and USC so far.

 

I'm also quite undecided on where I want to go with my education and future career. I used to be heavily into computer programming, and won a few IEEE awards for my programming work on a robotics team, so perhaps computer science is a degree to pursue. Given my history of working with psychologists and my love of understanding people, perhaps a degree in psychology would lead to a career in therapy. However, my main passion throughout my life and especially right now is music. My desired career would be simply to be making my own music and supporting myself off that- but obviously there's no class that teaches you how to be a successful artist.

 

At USC, I checked out their Thornton school after a tour. They have internship connections with WMG, SMG, UMG and many other big names in the industry- which does sound quite appealing. The major that interested me was their Music Technology courses under their Music Industry department; the classes would focus on the engineering aspect of music and provide intense coursework on learning about the technology and how to use it.

 

I was wondering- do any of you have any comments on a program like this? Perhaps your experiences with USC specifically or perhaps college courses for audio engineering in general. More importantly- what is the field like? Any comments on this aspect of the industry would be much appreciated.

 

P.S. Ski and others- any suggestions for LA fun that don't involve hiking to the Hollywood sign or telling underground rap artists to f@$k off outside the Chinese theatre as they attempt to sell me their illegal mixtapes for $5?

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I used to be heavily into computer programming, and won a few IEEE awards for my programming work on a robotics team, so perhaps computer science is a degree to pursue. Given my history of working with psychologists and my love of understanding people, perhaps a degree in psychology would lead to a career in therapy.

 

Not what you were asking, but my first thought was if you had considered anything in the cybernetics field? These two interests of yours would appear to dovetail toward that general direction.

[David Nahmani]

While in L.A. make sure to check out some of the best music production classes around town!!

[tristancalvaire]

While in L.A. make sure to check out some of the best music production classes around town!!

 

Unfortunately I won't be here 'til August! Did give the Sidewalk Grill a look, though

[David Nahmani]

That's ok we've got our next classes in September!

 

PS: Sidewalk grill is great.

[tristancalvaire]

Well, I'm now back across the country in Connecticut.

 

I'd still love to hear from anyone about what the field of Mixing and Mastering are like, wether a degree in music technology is a good pursuit, and general information about it!

[ski]

In the fields I work in, to be considered for a job you're either good at what you do or not. Or you have to have a certain mixing style (since mixing is one of the things you mentioned) that I want for my track. Just having a degree wouldn't sway my decision towards hiring anyone. In fact, if someone were to come at me waving a diploma before telling me anything about what kinds of experience they have and so on, it would be an instant turn-off. Usually the only thing that someone fresh out of school with a degree is good for is being an intern.

 

For another perspective... I have a degree in music from a well-known conservatory. The only time my degree has ever been asked about has been in passing conversation, after I've been hired, and usually in relation to someone hearing my piano playing. Then, like conversations about the weather, the topic of degrees and whatnot fades into the background.

 

I'd say get all the education you can from the best sources, gain experience where you can, and tout your experience when you apply for a job. Oh, and have an impressive reel! If you want to intern after getting a degree, however, a diploma is a good way in the door for sure.

 

P.S. Ski and others- any suggestions for LA fun that don't involve hiking to the Hollywood sign or telling underground rap artists to f@$k off outside the Chinese theatre as they attempt to sell me their illegal mixtapes for $5?

 

Sorry I missed you when you were in town. But... tell me more about those cheap-a$$ mix tapes. Did you buy any? Can I get copies?

 

[tristancalvaire]

What about simply in terms of class content? Will the classes themselves be helpful in developing an ear for professional digital music development- or are there cheaper, non-college routes to learning the same/better information?

 

As for internships, they have connections with names like SMG, UMG and WMG... so it'd certainly help there.

 

I'm still undecided as to what I'd like to do, eventually developing the ability to be a performing and studio artist while sustaining myself off that is my dream goal- but until then, staying in the music field might be a good idea. Plus, I love working with technology and combining logic with creativity is generally what I focus on.

 

P.S. – Sister was coerced into buying a mixtape. I still have yet to give it a listen.

[ski]

What about simply in terms of class content?

 

I haven't looked at the syllabus. If you could provide a link I'll have a gander.

 

Will the classes themselves be helpful in developing an ear for professional digital music development- or are there cheaper, non-college routes to learning the same/better information?

 

First, let's talk about "professional digital music development". It's a term of academia which has no real equivalent in the "real" world of music production unless you're talking about MIT (musical instrument technology, and the development thereof). I would think that with your computer skills that perhaps a career in MIT might be a good fit for you. Companies like Korg and innumerable US-based software developers could use guys who know music as well as the programming end of things. And with your background in robotics I'd think that the sky's the limit for you. In fact, a friend of mine who used to work for many years at Korg R&D in souther Cali went on to work for Apple. Of course he couldn't tell me what position (LOL) but his combination of being a synth geek and Linux programmer got him far.

 

As to cheaper alternatives... they would be to take classes such as those offered by David, i.e., real specialists with a strong musical background who can teach everyone from beginners to top artists (see his client roster). But here's the thing... most people who end up being artists, producers, engineers, while they may take classes, it's only when they're in the trenches that they start really learning how to produce music. And most of my colleagues, many of whom are highly successful in their respective musical fields, are entirely self-taught, OR, they interned over many years with some really good people.

 

I'm still undecided as to what I'd like to do, eventually developing the ability to be a performing and studio artist while sustaining myself off that is my dream goal- but until then, staying in the music field might be a good idea. Plus, I love working with technology and combining logic with creativity is generally what I focus on.

 

I understand that you're undecided, but the view you're looking at is almost too wide. Not saying "don't dream", but you can't be all of those things at the same time. Being an artist means investing time into learning how to express yourself in a musical medium, learning how to acquire stage presence, going on the road and working out all of the kinks over many years, etc. Technology is only there to serve that purpose. Keep in mind that as a performing artist, only a very small percentage of anyone in your listening audience will care about how technological you are. Ultimately they will focus mainly on your artistic expression. The content and message of your songs. Even a guy as seemingly technological as DeadMau5 delivers more music and emotion than technology when he performs.

 

Anyway, that's all I have time for, but I hope that gives you some additional perspective.

 

P.S. – Sister was coerced into buying a mixtape. I still have yet to give it a listen.

 

[tristancalvaire]

Even a guy as seemingly technological as DeadMau5 delivers more music and emotion than technology when he performs.

 

its no secret. when it comes to “live” performance of EDM… that’s about the most it seems you can do anyway. It’s not about performance art, its not about talent either (really its not) In fact, let me do you and the rest of the EDM world button pushers who fuckin hate me for telling you how it is, a favor and let you all know how it is.

I think given about 1 hour of instruction, anyone with minimal knowledge of ableton and music tech in general could DO what im doing at a deadmau5 concert. Just like i think ANY DJ in the WORLD who can match a beat can do what “ANYONE else” (not going to mention any names) is doing on their EDM stages too. have a look, then let me explain:

 

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/403411_10150880955981806_1594782220_n.jpg

 

okay, so heres me, in a big silly mousehead.. twiddlin a knob or somethin… okay so heres how it works…. Somewhere in that mess is a computer, running ableton live… and its spewing out premixed (to a degree) stems of my original producitons, and then a SMPTE feed to front of house (so tell the light / video systems) where im at in the performance… so that all the visuals line up nicely and all the light cues are on and stuff. Now, while thats all goin on… theres a good chunk of Midi data spitting out as well to a handful of synths and crap that are / were used in the actual produciton… which i can tweak *live* and whatnot… but doesnt give me alot of “lookit me im jimi hendrix check out this solo” stuff, because im constrained to work on a set timeline because of the SMPTE. Its a super redundant system, and more importantly its reliable as f*%@! And obviously, ive done the show a couple hundred times easily by now, so the focus over the past few runs with the “cube show” has been more revolved around adding new audio / visual content to keep it current.

so thats my “live” show. and thats as “live” as i can comfortably get it (for now anyway) of course itll evolve, and change up, but im sure a few key principles will always remain the same.

Im just so sick of hearing the “NO!!! IM NOT JUST DOING THIS, I HAVE 6 TABLES UP THERE AND I DO THIS THIS AND THIS” like… honestly. who gives a f*%@? i dont have any shame in admitting that for “unhooked” sets.. i just roll up with a laptop and a midi controller and “select” tracks n hit a spacebar. ableton syncs the s#!+ up for me… so no beatmatching skill required. “beatmatching” isnt even a f$@%ing skill as far as im concered anyway. so what, you can count to 4. cool. i had that skill down when i was 3, so dont give me that argument please.

my “skills” and other PRODUCERS skills shine where it needs to shine… in the goddamned studio, and on the f$@%ing releases. thats what counts… because this whole big “edm” is taking over fad, im not going to let it go thinking that people assume theres a guy on a laptop up there producing new original tracks on the fly. becausje none of the “top dj’s in the world” to my knowledge have. myself included.

you know what makes the EDM show the crazy amazing show that it is? you guys do, the fans, the people who came to appreciate the music, the lights, all the other people who came, we just facilitate the means and the pretty lights and the draw of more awesome people like you by our studio productions. which is exactly what it is. But to stand up and say youre doing something special outside of a studio environment, when youre not, just plain fuckin annoys me.

 

>.>

[Eriksimon]

To me it is unclear who's quote the above piece (from "its no secret... to "...annoys me."), set in "quotation grey", is... Or is it just a format error, and is it ttoxique who's being annoyed...?

[ski]

I think it's Deadmau5 because he says, "okay, so heres me, in a big silly mousehead.. twiddlin a knob or somethin… "

 

"you know what makes the EDM show the crazy amazing show that it is? you guys do, the fans, the people who came to appreciate the music, the lights, all the other people who came, we just facilitate the means and the pretty lights and the draw of more awesome people like you by our studio productions. which is exactly what it is. But to stand up and say youre doing something special outside of a studio environment, when youre not, just plain fuckin annoys me."

 

Of course, he's also talking about how he uses technology to make that music, but as it applies to this conversation, you don't need a degree in music technology to do what he or any other artist does.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I think that's settled it then; just save up for a big silly mousehead, and get to know some people who are good at lights and projectors.

 

As far as education goes, I'd say it's the contacts you make who go on to be successful or good at what they do that is the real benefit. Becoming friends with talented people opens up a lot of opportunities.

[tristancalvaire]

It was indeed a post by deadmau5 entitled "we all push play" wherein he completely ignores the fact that he's worked with the likes of Rob Swire or Imogen Heap who do quite a bit more than pushing play, live.

 

Still talking about him, he says a lot of his skills came from simply hanging around engineer types in a studio. Unfortunately, I don't personally know any audio engineer types, although I'm going to look into a program a nearby studio offers for lessons. He also claims that when looking to sign an artist for Mau5trap, it's important that they can not only compose but also properly mix their own music.

[ski]

He also claims that when looking to sign an artist for Mau5trap, it's important that they can not only compose but also properly mix their own music.

 

Depends on what he means by "mix". Not that I'm not suggesting that it's not important for you to learn how to mix, even if it's only to get your music sounding representative of what it should be at a demo level, but remember... you can always hire an engineer to mix your tracks for you. Why bother learning how to be an engineer when there are thousands of qualified, professional engineers out there?

 

I guess what I'm saying is that being an artist is not about doing everything yourself. For one, there simply isn't enough time in the day. And ultimately, not too many people will care how you got your music done. Of the 5% of your audience who will care -- the techno geeks and gear heads, that's not enough of a slice of the record-buying pie to pay the bills. You don't need their approval, awe and amazement at your process, flattering though it may be. Truly, what goes on behind the scenes is not important. It's about the music.

[tristancalvaire]

Depends on what he means by "mix". Not that I'm not suggesting that it's not important for you to learn how to mix, even if it's only to get your music sounding representative of what it should be at a demo level, but remember... you can always hire an engineer to mix your tracks for you. Why bother learning how to be an engineer when there are thousands of qualified, professional engineers out there?

 

I guess what I'm saying is that being an artist is not about doing everything yourself. For one, there simply isn't enough time in the day. And ultimately, not too many people will care how you got your music done. Of the 5% of your audience who will care -- the techno geeks and gear heads, that's not enough of a slice of the record-buying pie to pay the bills. You don't need their approval, awe and amazement at your process, flattering though it may be. Truly, what goes on behind the scenes is not important. It's about the music.

 

I guess my main focus right now would be to be able to get mixes that sound as professional as they can- done by me. The main reason I can't get an engineer to mix or master for me is mostly monetary.

 

... That, and I really don't have a demo track I consider decent enough to get properly mixed and mastered. My main focus should probably be to actually start finishing songs again.

 

One of my earliest inspirations was Daft Punk; although I mostly listened to alt/indie rock when I was younger, DP has been an electronic group that's always stuck with me.

You can get the sound of a guitar with a keyboard, or the opposite. We don't really care about who's doing what as long as it's well-done. At the same time, when you use samples, you don't have this problem. When you use a sampler, nobody plays on it, so the problem of the ego of the musician is not really there. For everything that we do, no matter how you get to the results, the important thing is the result.

Perhaps I should follow this more.

[ski]

I guess my main focus right now would be to be able to get mixes that sound as professional as they can- done by me. The main reason I can't get an engineer to mix or master for me is mostly monetary.

 

That's (potentially) a false economy. I could recommend engineers in LA and NY that will do independent work for $50/hr. And we're not talking bedroom-based engineers here either. Even if your song was complex and took two days to mix, you're talking maybe $800 or so. Now, for comparison, think about the expenses involved in attending classes and/or school, plus the expense in time gaining enough experience to make your mixes sound like a pro could.

 

That, and I really don't have a demo track I consider decent enough to get properly mixed and mastered. My main focus should probably be to actually start finishing songs again.

 

Bing-o! And if you're going for the recording artist thing, no more needs to be said.

 

...no matter how you get to the results, the important thing is the result...

 

Bing-o #2.

[shivermetimbers]

Bingo #3

 

[ski]

The arrangement on that is AW-FUL! Gawd, could they have gotten anyone any less qualified to put that together? GAH! CRAP! Crap crap crap crap utter CRAP!

 

On a more positive note, the dawgy is cute.

[Jordi Torres]

The arrangement on that is AW-FUL! Gawd, could they have gotten anyone any less qualified to put that together? GAH! CRAP! Crap crap crap crap utter CRAP!

 

What about the grammar?

 

There was a farmer had a dog...

 

J.

[ski]

Ah... see, this is a very old song, and the grammar is colloquial and meant to be suggestive of the way a rural American farmer might speak. Now that you mention it, the word "There" is almost too grammatically correct to even be included.

 

However...

 

The way the woman sings "farmer" sounds so entirely wrong: Fah-mah.

 

Fah-mah? What??!?!?!

 

See, you got me started... I didn't log on to deal with this and get upset. AGAIN. No, I came on to tell someone about something I discovered about creating Auxes that wouldn't show up in the Mixer layer but rather in the layer that you create them in and... and... and...

 

[Jordi Torres]

Hmmm...I thought it was supposed to be "Old MacDonald had a farm"???...what sounds weird is that they're using There was a farmer as if it were a noun.

 

J.

[ski]

Oh, that's a different song altogether.

 

Farmer, farm, both nouns. I used to live in farm country, but fortunately for our nostrils way far away from the chicken and sheep farms. They're really stinky. No, we were in the vicinity of a few dairy farms. Not much to complain about by comparison. Actually, things are way worse here in LA suburbs, dealing with the skunks. Oh man!!!

 

But I digress...

 

[Jordi Torres]

Oh, that's a different song altogether.

 

Oh crap, right! I got the two songs mixed up They're so similar!

 

Farmer, farm, both nouns.

 

Yeah but the sentence "There was a farmer had a dog" makes no sense...they're treating the four words that precede the verb as a noun: "There-was-a-farmer" as in "hello, Mr. There-was-a-farmer...how's your dog?" Get it?

 

Actually, things are way worse here in LA suburbs, dealing with the skunks. Oh man!!!

 

I guees I'm fortunate I've never had to deal with a skunk...I guess I'm a bit curious about how their scent

 

Your dog got in a fight with one once, no?

 

J.

[ski]

• There was a farmer (who) had a dog, or...

• There was a farmer, (he) had a dog

 

Of course, those would be correct. But in creating a rural "pastiche" for the lyric, leaving out the (who) or the (he) works. "It's a 'merican thing" maybe.

 

Yes indeed, both of my dogs got blasted (no fights, thankfully). Remy (may she rest in peace) got sprayed at our old place in rural NY, and Boing (may he rest in peace) got hit twice, once in NY and another time here in LA. Despite numerous baths with special skunk de-stinkifying shampoo he would still become quite odiferous if he got wet. Took weeks for it to go away entirely. I nearly got blasted last year... I was outside taking a night time photograph of a mushroom, laying on the ground by the grass with my camera by where it was growing. I heard a noise, looked up, and there it was, about 5' away from my face. So I backed off reeeeeally slowly and when I was far enough away, ran in the house as quickly as I could.

 

I guess I'm a bit curious about how their scent

 

Oh, you reeeeeeally don't want to know. Still, if you're curious, find someone who has a stash of skunk (the word in italics is a hint: "The Doobie Brothers") and have a whiff of that in the plastic bag, not burning. Then concentrate that smell in your mind by about 1000x, tack on a vinegary sting and voila, you have skunk.

[shivermetimbers]

I was outside taking a night time photograph of a mushroom, laying on the ground by the grass with my camera by where it was growing.

 

ohhhhhhhhh kaaaaaaaaay.

 

Was it the kind that grows after a doggy tinkled?

 

-or-

 

 

http://www.newageinfo.com/images/magic-mushrooms.jpg

[Scott Jackson]

I was outside taking a night time photograph of a mushroom, laying on the ground by the grass with my camera by where it was growing.... and then they just started multiplying and growing...and growing.......and growing......

 

 

It was like reeeeaaally trippy maaaaannnnn.

 

[Jordi Torres]

• There was a farmer (who) had a dog, or...

• There was a farmer, (he) had a dog

 

OK, who makes more sense to me and that's how I reconstructed it in my head.

 

"It's a 'merican thing" maybe.

 

I think they just omitted the "who".

 

Yes indeed, both of my dogs got blasted (no fights, thankfully). Remy (may she rest in peace) got sprayed at our old place in rural NY, and Boing (may he rest in peace) got hit twice, once in NY and another time here in LA. Despite numerous baths with special skunk de-stinkifying shampoo he would still become quite odiferous if he got wet. Took weeks for it to go away entirely. I nearly got blasted last year... I was outside taking a night time photograph of a mushroom, laying on the ground by the grass with my camera by where it was growing. I heard a noise, looked up, and there it was, about 5' away from my face. So I backed off reeeeeally slowly and when I was far enough away, ran in the house as quickly as I could.

 

Sorry to hear about your dogs...nice story though, taking pictures of magic mushrooms while a skunk looked on...maybe it was just intrigued at your behavior and didn't want no trouble.

 

Oh, you reeeeeeally don't want to know. Still, if you're curious, find someone who has a stash of skunk (the word in italics is a hint: "The Doobie Brothers") and have a whiff of that in the plastic bag, not burning. Then concentrate that smell in your mind by about 1000x, tack on a vinegary sting and voila, you have skunk.

 

OK, I think I get the idea now, thanks!

 

J.

[ski]