Content Creators & Web Model Design

[Phrase]

It is easier to avoid that transaction experience than continually be upset by it ... It is one component that needs to be addressed.

 

Nublu ... absolutely ... the transaction must be seamless , effortless , intuitively comfortable ... !

 

I have just found ... a pdf. titled ... " Copyright and Provenance: Some Practical Problems " by John Mark Ockerbloom

 

http://sites.computer.org/debull/A07dec/ockerbloom.pdf

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... to quote the abstract ... " Copyright clearance is an increasingly complex and expensive impediment to the digitization and reuse of information. Clearing copyright issues in a reliable and cost-effective manner for works created in the last 100 years can involve establishing complex provenance chains for the works, their copyrights, and their licenses. This paper gives an overview of some of the practical provenance-related issues and challenges in clearing copyrights at large scale, and discusses efforts to more efficiently gather and share information and its copyright provenance. " ...

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At this point i have not read it, but hopefully some of the core ideas will connect with my understanding of Lanier's suggestions . ... Also, it may be directed at ... 'large scale' clearance ... which may not be pertinent to the independent DIY 'ers using a Logic based DAW ... This pdf. article may be directed towards aggregate sites within Web 2.0. ... we'll see ... ( i'm looking for information on how a 'provenance' based technological web design will simplify and enhance the economic sustainability of independent content creators. ) ... so, a little more mid-night reading ... in order to build that 'shared understanding' between those interested ... ... all the best ... phrase

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[ski]

I wish I had more time to reply, but one thing about your response caught my eye.

And I did not mean to "write poetic", it's just a happenstance aesthetic.

 

Right then...

 

We have moved from a print based culture to a visual based culture ... which furthers the impact of advertising and propaganda.

 

One of the earliest forms of visual-based advertising/propaganda I'm familiar with comes from 1840 and the issuance of the first adhesive postage stamp, the British "Penny Black", featuring a somewhat crude yet noble portrait of Queen Victoria. It is from that time forward, and particularly in the United States where private engraving and printing companies flourished (particularly in New York) and produced stamps under contract for the US and many foreign countries that the cross-pollination of nationalistic sentiments (and propaganda) began in visual form, viz...

 

A common and blatant feature of these early stamps was the portraiture of historical figures, imbued with a sense of national pride, history, and dignity. The art of engraving, especially in the U.S., developed towards its "golden era" in the mid to late 19th century, after which a higher standard was impossible to achieve. Indeed, these early and diminutive receipts for postage paid, when used on foreign-bound mail, were intended to reflect the high cultural and artistic standards of the country of origin, but still for the purpose of portraying a strong sense of nationalism. Or, to put it in more crass modern terms, they were highly artistic, miniature propaganda pieces.

 

But they were not designed without a conscience. In 1869, a design for a 30c stamp featured a miniature scene of the surrender of Burgoyne to Washington at Saratoga. Designed by a non-governmental engraving firm, it was submitted to Postal authorities for approval but was rejected on the basis that this stamp would be used almost exclusively on mail sent to England (which carried a 30c postal rate), and would have proved embarrassing for recipients in England to be reminded of their defeat in the Colonies. Thus, the design was scrapped in favor of a rather innocuous one that would cause no embarrassment to either party. Still, the design that was ultimately approved featured an eagle and shield, two allegorical representations of the United States: nationalism.

 

However, the power of the visual image on stamps was deliberately exploited in 1898 by the US government -- which had by then taken over the design of all US stamps with the formation of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing -- for the purpose of promoting westward expansion of the U.S. Each of the nine stamps in a new "Trans-Mississippi" series featured a different scene ("vignette") pertaining to westward expansion, everything from Indians on horseback hunting buffalo to a view of an engineering marvel of the day, a bridge over the Mississippi river.

 

The bridge vignette was originally intended for use on the 2-cent stamp, the denomination that would be used and viewed most frequently by the public in the sending and receiving of everyday letters. But for purposes of promoting farming opportunities out west, particularly in North Dakota and elsewhere, the vignette for this stamp was deliberately swapped with the one originally intended for the $2 design -- an captivating, intriguing scene taken from an actual photograph of a seemingly endless train of horses and plowshares working a field on the Dalrymple farm in N.D.

 

And unfeasible as it may seem to us modern folk, the plan (propaganda) worked, and indeed many Americans looking for opportunity flocked to these farmlands. It would probably be a stretch to think that a stamp alone could have caused an easterner to pack up and head west, but the regular and repeated use of this imagery via the common 2-cent stamp made its way into the public consciousness and helped to reinforce the government's western-expansion agenda.

 

When it comes to exporting a sense of nationalism... While patriotic portraiture has a long history that predates the early era of stamp production by many centuries, their dissemination to places outside of those countries in which they would otherwise have the most meaning began with the establishment of international postal services. And it's from that time that I believe we started to move from a print-based culture to a more visually-oriented one, particularly when it came to a "cross-promotion" of nationalistic sentiments via the designs on postage stamps. All of this is to say that the world started moving towards being visually oriented not in the recent past, not with the advent of the Internet, but back in the 19th century at the very least.

 

What's more disturbing today is that there is how very little moral conscience applied to so many of the images we see. During a TV news story, non-contemporaneous "file footage" is routinely looped in the background while preened pseudo-celebrities try to sell us the news. But anything that loops becomes captivating, numbing the mind to watch rather than listen and critically evaluate. And on Internet-based news pages such as news.yahoo.com, unrelated stock photo images are routinely placed inline with story blurbs in an attempt to attract our attention, like magpies to a marble glinting in the sun.

 

So indeed, visual imagery is used to sell us everything from beer to the news, and thus it's vitally important to be aware that when you're viewing any kind of advertisement or news that you're a human being, not a magpie. All innocence has been lost, and it's up to us to remain aware, hard work though it may be.

 

Oh jeez, and here I said I didn't have much time to reply... LOL!

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Anyone interested in what Ski wrote above should read this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Society_of_the_Spectacle

 

Packaging is the most important product anyone makes today in the West: discuss.

[Phrase]

So indeed, visual imagery is used to sell us everything from beer to the news, and thus it's vitally important to be aware that when you're viewing any kind of advertisement or news that you're a human being, not a magpie. All innocence has been lost, and it's up to us to remain aware, hard work though it may be.

Packaging is the most important product anyone makes today in the West: discuss.

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Fascinating ... thanx ... so it seems the tail has been wagging the dog for quite some time !

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In fact, there are - tails - to this dog. ... An aspect i'm trying to become more aware of, of which Lanier writes , would be building awareness of that tail within a tail , and ... of the 'design' of that tail: ... the internal structure as function by design, the design characteristics , the technological design characteristics , ideas as shapers, Web 2.0 as a serf's dog's tail ... technological design and social engineering ... the digital matrix conveying the images of persuasion ... trapped within and forever reacting ... the importance of provenance as a liberator within future designs ... etc.

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For a moment, by way of apology, ... i'm not satisfied with the pdf(s) which i linked above because neither are succinct enough or say what i want to say so that i (we) can move on and get busy. ... But, there is some good info which may be useful. ... In fact, the tail, in this case the ' ... long tail ... ' is mentioned . ...

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to segue ... from "You are Not A Gadget" ... p.88 ... Lanier quotes ... Kevin Kelly ...

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" But the long tail is a decidedly mixed blessing for creators. Individual artists , producers , inventors and makers are over-looked in the equation. The long tail does not raise the sales of creators much, but it does add massive competition and endless downward pressure on prices. Unless artists become a large aggregator of other artists' works, the long tail offers no path out of the quiet doldrums of minuscule sales . " ... the 'long tail' within Web 2.0 free open culture marketing design model ...

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[Phrase]

quote from an article on Jaron Lanier ... written by Brandon Reynolds ...

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" ...There is something to this idea of provenance, though; that is, the ability to track a file back to its source, and therefore to see it in its original context (with, presumably, its one and only owner). Lanier thinks this arrangement keeps things simple, straightforward, and prevents what he calls “artificial mysteriousness” (this is the phenomenon of things being more obscure than they need to be, e.g. relying on recommendation engines such as Netflix’s to help you make choices, when, he argues, most of the time we don’t need the help). If one person controlled all the art they made (those “files” of the songs and paintings and poems they labored over), and it could be made impossible to replicate those files but also easy for an interested party to find those files and pay, say, a few pennies each time they want to listen to that song or read that poem, then you might be able to have a really robust economy online. But first you’d have to convince people that paying a few cents is somehow better than paying nothing at all. ... "

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http://annenberglab.wordpress.com/tag/jaronlanier/

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... To me, this was a well written, informative , questioning article , conveying a succinct balanced overview of some of Lanier's thoughts ... It may help to build familiarization , context , and further discussion. ...

[ski]

Whoops! Big red flag here with Lanier's thought process. Shows he doesn't understand the finer (and potentially obvious) points of ownership...

 

" ...There is something to this idea of provenance, though; that is, the ability to track a file back to its source, and therefore to see it in its original context (with, presumably, its one and only owner).

 

What happens when there is more than one "owner"? The notion of multiple ownership of a copyrighted work is not even remotely on the periphery if one just thinks hard enough for a minute. Trivia question: name a famous songwriting team! If you answered Rodgers and Hammerstein, Gamble and Huff, Lennon and McCartney, or John and Taupin, you'd see how close we are to having at least a few such famous teams in our purview. In fact, they're all household names. So Lanier is strangely (IMO) out of touch with the idea of provenance and the (indeed) not-so-finer points of authorship of copyrighted works.

 

An multiplicity of owners for a single work extends farther than songwriting duos... Many songs have more than two copyright holders, as do literary works. It's also very common that the rights to a work originally copyrighted (or copyrightable) by a multiple number of authors (here, "author" being a participant in a musical or literary work) have been assigned to, or assumed by, publishing companies, the estates of deceased authors, and other kinds of legal entities. So the concept should not be to trace the provenance back to a single author, it's to trace it to its current legal owner.

 

When expertising antiques, rare stamps, and coins, an appraiser will trace an item's provenance by going backwards through time to establish "the chain of provenance". Simply put, it's a history of the item's previous owners and various documents or evidence that would support claims of their individual ownership. And just like material rarities, copyrightable works may change hands over time and thus, this term "provenance" in Lanier's lexicon is really a fancy way of referring to "the current copyright owner", or, whomever has legal claim to the copyright.

 

In light of this, I will don my conspiracy hat... I can't help but wonder if all of this Web 2.0 talk, with its repurposing of words from other fields (such as "provenance") to make the process of tracing ownership somewhat unfamiliar, mysterious and obscure (miracle, mystery, authority, eh?), it seem to me that it's just more of an excuse to continue the practice of making copyrighted materials available, but instead of "free", it's for pennies on the dollar. And this comes from Lanier's notion of "paying pennies" to the owner. Pennies? Pennies? That's as demeaning and repulsive a thought as it gets. Mere pennies are the big consolation prize? Not dollars? Is the owner of a musical work which costs (say) tens of thousands of dollars and many years to produce entitled to only f$@%ing pennies? (Spit!) "Oh yes, let's throw the poor rag-tag artisans a few breadcrumbs to sustain them just enough that they won't outright starve, whilst they continue to produce that which others will provide to us for mere pennies."

 

 

(BTW, per your comment from earlier, it's nice conversing with you too, Phrase!)

[ski]

No one ever goes quite far enough, do they?

 

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57491122-93/googles-search-engine-becomes-new-antipiracy-weapon/

 

"Weapon". LOL! Slap on the wrist is more like it.

[Phrase]

Hi Ski : ... I like red flags : ... the competing contradictory signals of ' alarm ! ' and ' stop ' . ... Maybe we should follow the red with a yellow : ... proceed with caution ... we've lost sight of the forest because of the trees ... or ... the tail that wags the dog directs attention to micro details ... Ski, ...please do not get me wrong, i respect your opinions , and look forward to learning , sharing , and establishing that ' shared understanding ' .

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If i could just ramble for a moment i would say that often we tend to offer thoughts leading to 'closure'. Somehow i'm trying to think from the continually 'grey' zone , hoping for rays of light understanding from others ... to continually open up the conversation ... untie the knot ... recognize the nature of the threads ... to help weave a social fabric , which is the matrix for a more humane , equitable , & positive society . I believe you would agree with that ... although your articulation would be more refined and elegant .

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So the concept should not be to trace the provenance back to a single author, it's to trace it to its current legal owner.

"Oh yes, let's throw the poor rag-tag artisans a few breadcrumbs to sustain them just enough that they won't outright starve, whilst they continue to produce that which others will provide to us for mere pennies."

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I don't believe that Lanier contemplates only a 'single author', or payments of ' mere pennies ' . The article was good for those not having the time to go further . It was however ' Lanier Lite ' . Also the link to

a pdf. titled ... " Copyright and Provenance: Some Practical Problems " by John Mark Ockerbloom

... to me indicated the complexity of coding necessary to create specific coding for specific provenance types within Web 2.0. ... And yes, it is good to know that the 'master' Google is tracking take-down notices from within their commercial venture within Web 2.0.

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... ...To me, the real beginning to this discussion resides in the recognition of the limits inherent with Web 2.0. ... Right now we are framing the discussion as seen from within a technological web design model (2.0) ... which conditions users ... which furthers the dominant ideology ... maintains the status quo ... entrenches hierarchy ... and could be coined feudalistic Web 2.0 . ... As Lanier wrote in "You Are Not A Gadget" ...

 

" But in the case of digital creative materials, like MIDI, UNIX, or even the World Wide Web, it's a good idea to be skeptical. These designs came together very recently, and there;s a haphazard, accidental quality to them. Resist the easy grooves they guide you into. If you love the medium made of software, there's a danger that you will become entrapped in someone else's recent careless thoughts. Struggle against that ! " Jaron Lanier p. 22

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Ski, ... to me this topic is sort of an 'occupy the Web' movement . ... or greening the digital domain. ... First step is recognizing ... is there pain ... is there enough pain ... such that there will be a call for ... the need for change , ... the scope of change, ... is there an alternative ... and if so ... then building to affect such in a realistic manner, ... perhaps a provenance 'channel' assimilated within Web 2.0 ... maybe as a data pay plan option provided by ISPs. ... But ... it is far to early to speak fundamentally of the actual remuneration chain and the coding necessary to enact that, in my opinion. ... Also, please remember i'm just a person who is reading a very interesting book , the ideas of which could help the creative content producers .

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I have to go, but , again Lanier's book covers a lot of ground. ... Maybe i'll just stop by quoting a goal of Lanier's from 'You Are Not A Gadget"

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Lanier wrote ... p 191 ... " ... I spend a lot of time on this problem. I am trying to create a new way to make software that escapes the boundaries of preexisting symbol systems. This is my phenotropic project. ... The point of the project is to find a way of making software that rejects the idea of the protocol. Instead, each software module must use emergent generic pattern-recognition techniques - ... Phenotropic computing could potentially result in a kind of software that is less tangled and unpredictable, since there wouldn't be protocol errors ... It would also suggest a path to escaping the prison of predefined, locked-in ontologies like MIDI in human affairs . "

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Of coarse that's way out there. So the original questions at the beginning of this thread should be repeated now to re-ground the conversation .

... Ski ... if you've got the time ... it is an interesting read . .... all the best ... phrase ...

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[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

... to help weave a social fabric , which is the matrix for a more humane , equitable , & positive society...

 

You'll have to dig a lot deeper for that. The internet won't make that happen.

[Phrase]

You'll have to dig a lot deeper for that. The internet won't make that happen.

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Mr. Rev. ... you are right of coarse ! ... The topic began here .

 

"So some questions are: … What are the characteristics of a Provenance Web Model which will help the creative community ? … Compare and contrast present Web 2.0 design model with the 'provenance' web model which Lanier refers to (Ted Nelson) ? … Can the 'provenance model' co-exist with Web 2.0, and if so can consumers be educated to make consuming choices which would support enhanced autonomy for the creative content originators. … What is the best way to formulate this discussion so that the narrative framing furthers positive constructive dialogue ? … Will awareness and understanding lead to a grass roots lobbying base necessary to push for changes ? … etc. ...

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Too many questions for one thread. … Maybe this thread's function should be to formulate succinct questions which are more fully explored on appropriately linked threads. … In any case, this thread will indicate whether there is interest to discuss these issues. "

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I'd like to thank David for all his work to create and maintain this forum. ... Great Job Sir ! ...

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I've learnt a lot regarding the level of awareness of and acceptance for the ideas presented, especially the work of Jaron Lanier, & in particular his book "You Are Not A Gadget". ...

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We are all into our own concerns and so thank you to those who participated and to those who spent their time to browse, read , and think about some of this stuff. ... I don't want to become too politically radical or challenging because the balance and purpose of this forum must be respected. ...

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We'll see ... best regards ... phrase ...

[ski]

Phrase,

 

Real quick (or at least I'm going to attempt it, as I have real work to do LOL!), my replies here are not aimed at you, they're aimed at the subject matter, the strange words, whatever else inspires me to respond. But I totally respect that you've started this thread and discussion on this topic.

 

In terms of formulating succinct questions, and since you're so familiar with the subject, let me ask... Is Web 2.0 -- in concept -- intended to provide a remuneration scheme only? Or is it a way to circumvent the illegal (or improper) uploading of content? In terms of Google, which provides an open door to copyright infringement (and non-remuneration) via YouTube, would it prevent them from allowing such uploads to occur? Or is the idea to accept the idea that illegal uploading of copyrighted material cannot be stopped but as a remedy provides facilities for remuneration?

 

Thanks!

 

Ski

[Phrase]

let me ask... Is Web 2.0 -- in concept -- intended to provide a remuneration scheme only? Or is it a way to circumvent the illegal (or improper) uploading of content? In terms of Google, which provides an open door to copyright infringement (and non-remuneration) via YouTube, would it prevent them from allowing such uploads to occur? Or is the idea to accept the idea that illegal uploading of copyrighted material cannot be stopped but as a remedy provides facilities for remuneration?

...

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Hi Ski: ... my friend ... thanx for the above questions. ...

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But, for me , i feel like i'm 'spinning my wheels' here ... because ... those questions indicate the person has not read or absorbed info. / opinions already articulated within this topic thread . ... So, the first thing I would say is ... if you have time ... please re-read this thread ... slowly & with thought ... because the context , the field of definition , and some of the answers , ... are already partially defined. ...

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Ski, ... as Lanier reminds us, ... technology , the design of technology , the impact of that design in terms of social engineering has an outcome. ... It may take some time before the consequences of the design characteristics are seen reflected in the behaviour of the users , ... and in Web 2.0, ... maybe manipulated by the masters of the clouds to commercial advantage. ...

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And yes, is the prevailing ideology reflected in the technological design? Is it intentional or understandably by chance? ... interesting questions ...

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Somewhere near the end of page 1 of this topic, a brief discussion with Mr. Rev ... resulted in the Web 2.0 design being referred to as feudalistic . ... I'll let you wander through those thoughts and we'll speak later if you like . ...

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... on page 4 ... i briefly mentioned ...

... ...To me, the real beginning to this discussion resides in the recognition of the limits inherent with Web 2.0. ... Right now we are framing the discussion as seen from within a technological web design model (2.0) ... which conditions users ... which furthers the dominant ideology ... maintains the status quo ... entrenches hierarchy ... and could be coined feudalistic Web 2.0 .

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and as Lanier wrote ...

even the World Wide Web, it's a good idea to be skeptical. These designs came together very recently, and there;s a haphazard, accidental quality to them. Resist the easy grooves they guide you into. If you love the medium made of software, there's a danger that you will become entrapped in someone else's recent careless thoughts. Struggle against that ! " Jaron Lanier p. 22

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It may be useful to , rather than ask questions , .... a person could formulate a position of understanding . This would take some thought and clarify one's position in a positive way. ... We must dialogue as friends, with trust etc.

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So if you were to write ... to me Web 2.0 is like this ... and .... as a result its un-or-intended consequences being such ... this impacts the artist creative community in these ways . ... If we form the narrative in that way it may help to develop and share one's position in a more constructive way. ... just an idea

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To me, it seems too easy to just ... quote a few words ... from someone's writing ... and ask the originator for defend those words with further words ... often the original context is misconstrued to begin with , ... heck, we are all in a hurry, and besides there is something else wanting to be said. ... ... Please, don't take this personally , it is rather just an attempt to build a more creative constructive meaningful dialogue in a milieu of ... ' ten second awareness' .

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Probably , we all have partial answers , and maybe in this case a group think is the way to go. ...

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I'm not an expert, ... i'm just interested in questioning the nature of the forest we are immersed in. ... I'd like to make the tail which wags the dog ... a tail again .

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Thank you ... warmest regards ... phrase

[ski]

Hi Phrase,

 

I wasn't asking you to defend anything; rather, I was simply asking succinct questions, something you suggested in one of your previous posts. I guess you could say that that's my form of "starting a dialog" as you put it -- whittling down what I see as the core issues to a few succinct questions (even if they're rhetorical). There's far too much new language being bandied about and for me, it obfuscates the real issues. Having some yes/no answers to some of the core issues would be a great way to consolidate an understanding of them. Just an opinion, yadda yadda.

 

Cheers,

 

Ski

[Phrase]

Ski ... thanx ... but its your turn Sir ! ... with all respect ... its time for you to put it down !

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Brother, I've put myself on the line. ... I've indicated that if persons can't put what they think down, ... that is ... into words ... then they may not have an opinion, or ... the opinion may be politically incorrect . I can understand that. ... But, i sense you have an opinion. ... So, what is Web 2.0 to you ? ...

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I go on to formulate a way in which this thread may evolve quicker ... with honesty & sincerity, in my opinion. ... So my previous post remains posted . ... Please share your thoughts . ... Have you spent the time to re-read & re-think ; ... Is it all to be ten second attention ? ...

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... Please excuse my persistence . I've spent a lot of time sharing. ... I'm an open and an easy target , ... except the game i'm in is consensus , ... not compete & destroy . ... Intuitively i know this is not the nature of our dialogue. ... This could be too harse for you, but i hope ... you are secure and established. ... congratulations ... Your words carry weight .

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... So now , trying to de-escalate, and not wishing to express anything other that interest and respect: ... Brother what do you think ... i'd like to know . ...

So if you were to write ... to me Web 2.0 is like this ... and .... as a result its un-or-intended consequences being such ... this impacts the artist creative community in these ways . ... If we form the narrative in that way it may help to develop and share one's position in a more constructive way. ... just an idea

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Ski ... there is so much info, and opinions , which have not been acknowledge or discussed . It simply not worth continuing if somebody else is not willing to step up to the plate , ... so to speak .

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... I just watched some Michael Bolton at Royal Albert Hall ... inspiring ! ... also Ridley Scott's ... Gladiator ... talk about standing up for principles ... and now back to Web 2.0 on this thread , and what about Jaron Lanier's thoughts , ... nothing, ... maybe, hopefully something, ... some opinions , ... etc. . ... The world will be what we make it ! ...

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If i'm out of line ... the hive will dispense quick death . ... I hope we are more than the worst .

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These are our thoughts. ... If friends can't share in an open transparent environment , ... then ... sorry , i'm going too far too fast .

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Ski, i don't know you personally ... but i thank you for the continuing dialogue . ... best wishes always ! ...

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your virtual friend ... phrase

[ski]

Phrase,

 

Your first post read:

 

Content Creators and Web Model Design …

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I've read that the current web design model - Web 2.0 - has made it difficult for 'content creators' to make a living. … Jaron Lanier in -"You Are Not A Gadget" - suggests that a Web - open 'provenance' model - would enable economic sustainability for content creators. ... any thoughts ?

 

I've shared my thoughts on all manner of subjects related to remuneration, copyright infringement, and other topics which were being discussed. Personally, I don't see any of this conversation as contentious or heated, and, as they say, "it's all good"; we're all web-friends here. Though I am puzzled by why you think you've made yourself vulnerable. Are we not just having an informal conversation?

 

And to that effect, I'm not sure why you're throwing down a gauntlet (albeit a friendly one) for me to respond in a particular way. One thing's for sure... as a writer myself, I have a particular style, and thus I don't like being told how to express myself (as you suggested I do in your previous post). When I write I occasionally do battle with a copy editor but in this informal setting, in the Lounge in an online forum dedicated to music, I don't see a need to conform to any particular format for expressing my thoughts. So you'll please forgive me if I don't fit in well with the type of dialog you wish to hold. And to that effect I'll bow out now.

 

Final though in answer to your question tho.. What do I think of Web 2.0? Seems to me like a way to open the door even wider to anarchy on the www, contributes to the devaluation of expertise for sake of a false sense of egalitarianism, and seeks to create a "hive mind" mentality which is the enemy of individuality.

 

All My Best,

 

Ski

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Phrase,

 

Maybe I've missed something, I must admit I find it quite difficult to follow your ... posts ... seem disjointed ... lyrical pretention abounds ... sense sometimes lacking ...

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But from where I'm sitting, Ski has put forth more in the way of opinion than you. I see lots of questions, and what looks like a good 1/3rd of Lanier's book (let's hope he doesn't come looking for remuneration! ), but what do YOU think about what Lanier is writing?

 

Sorry, but I'm not about to read Lanier's book. After reading some reviews of You Are Not A Gadget, and finding myself thinking that he sounds like a douche when people quote him, I feel I've got more important reading to do.

 

I'm still up for discussion, but I'm not going to take the time to fully digest the frame of discussion you desire.

 

This is not "10 second attention", this is not reading one guy's book, because that should not be necessary to have a conversation ... unless you're in a book club ...

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This is also a friendly post, but if you don't allow conversation to flow, and people to express themselves in the way they deem appropriate, you'll find the conversation drying up very quickly.

[shivermetimbers]

Maybe you guys should give him/her a hug, he/she sounds rather lonely.

[Phrase]

No one ever goes quite far enough, do they?

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Ski : ... I think that sums it up . ... If you get a chance ... you might find Jaron Lanier's book " You Are Not A Gadget " interesting !

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Personally, I don't see any of this conversation as contentious or heated, and, as they say, "it's all good"; we're all web-friends here. Though I am puzzled by why you think you've made yourself vulnerable.

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You are right, ... vulnerable was probably the wrong word ... it is closer to disappointed really. ... That's just for me to deal with. ...

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Phrase wrote:

To me, it seems too easy to just ... quote a few words ... from someone's writing ... and ask the originator to defend those words with further words ... often the original context is misconstrued to begin with , ... heck, we are all in a hurry, and besides there is something else wanting to be said. ... ... Please, don't take this personally , it is rather just an attempt to build a more creative constructive meaningful dialogue in a milieu of ... ' ten second awareness' .

 

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I don't see a need to conform to any particular format for expressing my thoughts. So you'll please forgive me if I don't fit in well with the type of dialog you wish to hold. And to that effect I'll bow out now.

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Sorry about that ! ... That is not my intent . ... Still, I just don't know what you think about Jaron Lanier's thoughts or his book. I was just trying to say that the source of this thread's discussion is there, and one may be able to simply write their thoughts on various aspects after having become somewhat familiar. ... But, the consensus seems to be that that will not happen. ... OK ... thanx ...

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Ski, ... as Lanier reminds us, ... technology , the design of technology , the impact of that design in terms of social engineering has an outcome. ... It may take some time before the consequences of the design characteristics are seen reflected in the behaviour of the users , ... and in Web 2.0, ... maybe manipulated by the masters of the clouds to commercial advantage. ...

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And yes, is the prevailing ideology reflected in the technological design? Is it intentional or understandably by chance? ... interesting questions ...

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Somewhere near the end of page 1 of this topic, a brief discussion with Mr. Rev ... resulted in the Web 2.0 design being referred to as feudalistic . ... I'll let you wander through those thoughts and we'll speak later if you like . ...

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I'd like to thank David for all his work to create and maintain this forum. ... Great Job Sir ! ...

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I've learnt a lot regarding the level of awareness of and acceptance for the ideas presented, especially the work of Jaron Lanier, & in particular his book "You Are Not A Gadget". ...

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We are all into our own concerns and so thank you to those who participated and to those who spent their time to browse, read , and think about some of this stuff. ...

... thank you ... phrase

[Phrase]

Hi Ski , and others !

 

... This topic is still fascinating to me, and is still relevant to independent musicians or the larger content creating community operating within Web 2.0. ...

 

Here is a URL within which Jaron Lanier responds to questions about " You Are Not a Gadget "

 

http://www.jaronlanier.com/gadgetwebresources.html

 

please note : ... " Yet more questions: the book's political and economic arguments "

 

best regards ... phrase