andrewsky95 Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 on my final mix, i added a gain plug in and toggled mono, in mono it is more quiet and some of the instruments are lost? what can i do, also nothing is panned and everything is stereo? really dont know what to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Try mixing it in mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewsky95 Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 how do i do that? my plugins are only stereo selectable, well the ones im using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Change the output of those track to mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewsky95 Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 just tried that man, do i choose mono 1 or 2? also if i mix in mono, can be sure its stereo compatible, is this important and how do i check if itd stereo when its mixed completley mono? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 just tried that man, do i choose mono 1 or 2? Not sure what you mean by mono 1 or 2. Please clarify. Mono will always be stereo compatible. Some stereo mixes may not play back nicely when converted to mono as you have recently experienced. Since it is not known what type of music you are producing or what techniques you are using, it is rather difficult to give you a constructive, helpful answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 If you want to make sure your mix is mono compatible, be prepared for compromises. Lots of 'em. The most important question is "why bother?" Sure, if you think your music is going to be played on a mono system then sure, it's important. But if you can't foresee that happening, then don't even bother (other than for the exercise of learning what can happen when you make a stereo mix mono, and practicing various techniques for combatting the problems that occur when you do that). Now... you might even find that no matter what you do, your mix will never sound good when processed through a "mono-fier" (such as the gain plug set to mono). Case in point: let's say you're using the stock Logic Steinway piano. Sounds great on its own, in stereo, but when you mono-fy it it sounds like dogmeat. What can you do? Short of applying some sophisticated techniques to combat the phase cancellation that occurs when the sound is made mono, or using just one side of the piano (and panning it up the center -- which in itself may not even work), there's nothing you can do about it other than live with it as it is. Unless you decide to find another piano that's more mono compatible, and replace the sound. That's an artistic decision that only you can make, but you also have to go back to the first question, "why bother?" If you can think of a good reason then go for it. Balances between instruments can change drastically when you take a stereo mix and make it mono. On lots of recordings, particularly older stuff, there's a good chance that the engineer had indeed checked it for mono compatibility. But chances are good that he made some adjustments to the level of the otherwise perfectly good-sounding stereo mix to make sure it also sounded good in mono. Bottom line: mixing to mono is NOT for the feint of heart, and definitely not the stuff that beginners are going to get good at in, like, an hour It takes years and years of experience to be able to achieve the perfect balance between a great stereo mix and a mono-compatible one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The most important question is "why bother?" Sure, if you think your music is going to be played on a mono system then sure, it's important. But if you can't foresee that happening, then don't even bother Wow I don't agree with this at all. Your mixes will be played in mono in many situations: most live P.A.s (large venues, bars, clubs etc...), over FM radio when reception is poor, portable devices, some TVs, some computer built-in speakers, etc. Even when played in stereo in many situations it helps if the mix is mono compatible. A mono-compatible mix also means more energy, more punch. Now... you might even find that no matter what you do, your mix will never sound good when processed through a "mono-fier" (such as the gain plug set to mono). IMO it's not about sounding good, it's about sounding compatible. Meaning if the balance of the instruments completely changes when you switch to mono, then the mix is not mono-compatible: for example if you have a dance music track with a great solid deep bass synth and a punchy and boomy kick when listened in stereo, but the bass is thin and weak while the kick stays punchy and boomy when switching to mono, your mix is not mono compatible. I'd rather have both the bass and the kick drum sound weaker by an equal amount so their balance is respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Hi David, My point about "why bother" is that if your music isn't going to reach the outside world -- such that it would get played in the situations you described -- then there's not much point IMO in worrying about mono. What I didn't voice is that there are much more constructive ways to spend your time if your music isn't going to go out into the world as you mentioned. In fact, most of the engineers I work with these days don't do a mono check though "back in the day" they used to all the time. It was compulsory in most situations. Speaking of back in the day, when I'd be in a mix session and the engineer was bouncing back and forth between stereo and mono, we'd often make adjustments to the stereo mix to compensate for what happens when things go to mono. So yes, we'd have a great sounding stereo mix, but it would be "compromised" slightly for sake of mono compatibility: reverb levels would be tweaked, instruments would be panned slightly differently, kick and bass levels would be adjusted, etc., all so that the mix would sound good in stereo and mono. There were indeed times when there was nothing you could do about certain instruments sounding crappy when put into mono. And perhaps, just perhaps, the reason that engineers don't check mono compatibility these days is because stereo is much more prevalent. Now, my alarm clock radio isn't stereo (I know, I'm behind the times ) but everything else in my house is, even (of course) my laptop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 most of the engineers I work with these days don't do a mono check though "back in the day" they used to all the time. Certainly you're right about mono being more prevalent back in the day that today, but still, it's here (how many times have you had someone play something for you on their iPhone?) and even in situations where you think you're listening to a stereo mix (such as on your brand new 55" LED 3D TV), a mono compatible mix makes a lot of sense, as a lot of mono summing is done acoustically by reflection of pressure waves generated by the R and L speakers on the back wall. So anything out of phase will end up being weakened a lot. Two speaker membranes pumping air in sync (mono) are stronger than when one pumps while the other goes away (out of phase). I believe that most of the engineers you work with don't do a mono check because they have enough experience and know exactly what they're doing and they know they haven't done anything stupid which is going to make the mix not-mono-compatible, such as using a stereo spreader on a bass synth or mixing snare top and snare bottom mics without checking their phases. Also because they can use their ears to detect anything that's out of phase. But checking mono compatibility can be very constructive for the amateur who hasn't really thought those things through while recording/arranging/mixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well! It seems like David and Ski are having 'Mono compatible issues' because the responses they have provided are out of phase with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 Well! It seems like David and Ski are having 'Mono compatible issues' because the responses they have provided are out of phase with each other. I can't hear what I think about who I agree with, because my left channel agrees with Ski and my right channel agrees with David, and they have cancelled each other out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 So in essence, if the two quotes were to be switched to a mono quote, it would look something like this ... chirp, chirp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 This question is worth no points: Yes + No = ______ a) 0 b) c) d) e) f) LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eriksimon Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 This question is worth no points: Yes + No = ______ a) 0 b) c) d) e) f) LOL g) frustrating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 You are correct, the answer is: g) frustrating. Gee, it IS frustrating, isn't it? --- to take a perfectly good-sounding mix and hear it go to shyte in mono? Well, one problem, when working with various sample libraries, is that care wasn't taken to ensure that the samples are mono compatible. The example of the piano I mentioned above is a perfect example of this. Another is simply that summing left and right signals from reverb will sometimes reveal that the two sides cancel or reinforce in strange ways. Any kind of stereo phase shifter or flanger effect, where one side goes up and the other goes down will lose its trippy qualities. Ping-pong delays will usually end up being too loud when they're put up the center along with the dry signal. And so it goes. This post will now cancel itself out. ˙ʇno ɟlǝsʇı lǝɔuɐɔ ʍou llıʍ ʇsod sıɥ┴ ˙sǝoƃ ʇı os pu∀ ˙lɐuƃıs ʎɹp ǝɥʇ ɥʇıʍ ƃuolɐ ɹǝʇuǝɔ ǝɥʇ dn ʇnd ǝɹ,ʎǝɥʇ uǝɥʍ pnol ooʇ ƃuıǝq dn puǝ ʎllɐnsn llıʍ sʎɐlǝp ƃuod-ƃuıԀ ˙sǝıʇılɐnb ʎddıɹʇ sʇı ǝsol llıʍ uʍop sǝoƃ ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ puɐ dn sǝoƃ ǝpıs ǝuo ǝɹǝɥʍ 'ʇɔǝɟɟǝ ɹǝƃuɐlɟ ɹo ɹǝʇɟıɥs ǝsɐɥd oǝɹǝʇs ɟo puıʞ ʎu∀ ˙sʎɐʍ ǝƃuɐɹʇs uı ǝɔɹoɟuıǝɹ ɹo lǝɔuɐɔ sǝpıs oʍʇ ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʇ lɐǝʌǝɹ sǝɯıʇǝɯos llıʍ qɹǝʌǝɹ ɯoɹɟ slɐuƃıs ʇɥƃıɹ puɐ ʇɟǝl ƃuıɯɯns ʇɐɥʇ ʎldɯıs sı ɹǝɥʇou∀ ˙sıɥʇ ɟo ǝldɯɐxǝ ʇɔǝɟɹǝd ɐ sı ǝʌoqɐ pǝuoıʇuǝɯ I ouɐıd ǝɥʇ ɟo ǝldɯɐxǝ ǝɥ┴ ˙ǝlqıʇɐdɯoɔ ouoɯ ǝɹɐ sǝldɯɐs ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʇ ǝɹnsuǝ oʇ uǝʞɐʇ ʇ,usɐʍ ǝɹɐɔ ʇɐɥʇ sı 'sǝıɹɐɹqıl ǝldɯɐs snoıɹɐʌ ɥʇıʍ ƃuıʞɹoʍ uǝɥʍ 'ɯǝlqoɹd ǝuo 'llǝM ¿ouoɯ uı ǝʇʎɥs oʇ oƃ ʇı ɹɐǝɥ puɐ xıɯ ƃuıpunos-pooƃ ʎlʇɔǝɟɹǝd ɐ ǝʞɐʇ oʇ --- ¿ʇı ʇ,usı 'ƃuıʇɐɹʇsnɹɟ SI ʇı 'ǝǝפ ˙ƃuıʇɐɹʇsnɹɟ (ƃ :sı ɹǝʍsuɐ ǝɥʇ 'ʇɔǝɹɹoɔ ǝɹɐ no⅄ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristancalvaire Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I'm sorry, what was that Ski? I'm on mobile, I don't see anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristancalvaire Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Better a mix that dampens some instruments in mono than one that s̢̕̕t̡͘a̸r̢ts ҉t̕o͞ ́͘h͘͘͞à̡v̀e ͘͞a̵rt̸̀͠ifa̷͞c̴̀͘t̵s ́a̷͠nḑ͡ ̸͡c̷͞l̷̸̛i͢͞p̶̛ṕ̸į͠n̷͘g̛ ̶̡l̵i͜҉̴k̛e͘ ̵͟͞th̡i͜s҉,̀ ̀ń̷͜ǫ̸?҉̡̧ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 That's brilliant! Linky to the text mangler please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tristancalvaire Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 That's brilliant! Linky to the text mangler please! http://www.eeemo.net/ Warning: This process is known as Zalgo-ing text. Zalgo is not a term you particularly want to search for in Google images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 This is amazing. Thankx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainstick Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 hmm.... i never actually check( and i don't think i ever have) my mixes for mono compatibility, even stuff thats been pressed to vinyl... I was thinking about it the other day actually and whether its something i should do! i guess it can't hurt ... I think stuff generally is in stereo ( most club sound system's are stereo aren't they? i think? ) but the issue of speakers moving in sync is interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 most club sound system's are stereo aren't they? i think? Nope. They are almost always summed to mono. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainstick Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 really? Fair.... So even at decent clubs the overall output of the system will be mono? even though there's a left / right speaker stack and the mixer has pan's on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Juda Sleaze Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Perhaps some clubs do, but none that I've been to. In my experience, the only places that have stereo PAs are bars where the owners are clueless about their sound system. You can appreciate how annoying it would be if you were in one place of the club and were missing whatever was in the other channel. The only place I've gigged that had a stereo PA was an independent cinema, for obvious reasons. But I've only ever gigged in modest venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainstick Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 yeh it makes sense.... And i've heard it before... But i'm sure the pan button has worked before? ha... or maybe im imagining things... wouldn't be a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainstick Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 and i've heard it before... I mean heard of (systems being mono) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 really? Fair.... So even at decent clubs the overall output of the system will be mono? even though there's a left / right speaker stack and the mixer has pan's on it? I would say ESPECIALLY at decent clubs. The bigger the venue the more it makes sense to run the P.A. in mono. What good would it be panning some things left and other things right when 1/2 your audience can only hear the left speaker and the other 1/2 can only hear the right speaker? Stereo was designed for a listener positioned at equal distance of both the left and right speakers. In a club, those listeners are a minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainstick Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I have friends who tour manage / set up systems.... And they're saying that the systems they run are always in stereo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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