Choosing sample rate

[BookhouseBoy]

Hi everyone! I'm new here. My name is Eric from Sweden. I guess I'm a newbie. I have a question which has been talked about to death it seems yet I am none the wiser. It's the endless question about sample rate.

 

My situation is that I record in Logic Express in 24bit/96000 khz. I use an iMac and M-Audio FireWire Solo recording interface. I record keyboards using MIDI, real guitar, bass and vocals. I only use the keyboard sounds within Logic Express. EXS24 is my favorite. Everything works perfectly.

 

I'm in the process of writing about twelve songs. I record them at home but they will most likely be mixed somewhere else by someone else. I just don't have the skills for that. It's not my area. A friend of mine might mix it. He uses PC and Cubase though and he records everything in 48000 khz in his studio. He feels 48000 khz has always been good enough for him. It doesn't take up as much storage space as a higher sample rate would and it's also less heavy on the computer hardware.

 

If he will mix the songs in his studio, some things will be added there as well like vocals, drums, keybaords etc. I've been taking WAV files bounced in 24bit/96000 khz to his studio. He doesn't mix the songs yet since they're not 100% finished. We just add some drums, vocals etc to the songs. Mixing comes later. So he converts my 96000 khz WAV files down to 48000 khz which works fine. It sounds fine to me. I don't think I can hear a difference in sound quality.

 

But since I'm not sure he will mix the songs in the end and I don't know where they will be mixed, I'm unsure of what sample rate I should record the songs in. As I said, If he will mix the songs he will mix them in his studio where he works in 48000 khz. Some vocals, drums, keyboards etc will be added in his studio as well. Meaning I could record the songs at home in Logic Express in 48000 khz too. But the songs might be mixed in another studio where they might prefer 96000 or even 88,200 khz. The goal is first and foremost CD quality I guess which means 16 bit/44,100 khz and of course MP3s. But who knows, I might want to later on upload uncompressed WAV files of every song to my band's website. Meaning they would be in the original 96000 khz.

 

To be on the safe side I guess I should continue recording in 96000 khz since I don't know where the songs will end up being mixed? What do you guys think I should do?

 

SInce I'm a newbie I'm not sure about this but... when I work in Logic there are very few WAV files in my projects at the moment. Only vocals, bass, guitar are actual recordings. The rest is MIDI, all the keyboards. My music is mostly keyboards. Does this mean the keyboards have been recorded in 96000 khz yet? I could make two projects of the same song. One is in 96000 khz. Then I just export the MIDI files for every keyboard track and then import those MIDI files into another project that is 48000 khz or 88,2000 since MIDI files are only "key pressings".

 

I hope I've made myself clear enough. I appreciate any help very much.

[David Nahmani]

I use an iMac and M-Audio FireWire Solo recording interface.

You're recording through an M-Audio interface: you're wasting your time and your HD space by recording at 96KHz. Chances are your interface will yield a better sound quality at 48KHz. You need a very precise clock to properly clock at 96KHz. Inexpensive interfaces such as M-Audio do not have very precise clocks. Whatever you gain by recording at 96K vs 48K, you lose from the jitter coming from your clock running at 96K vs 48K.

 

Don't overthink it. Record at 48K. If you want a better sound quality, there are TONS of things you could improve before raising the sample rate: your room's acoustic, your mic preamps, your A/D converters, your mic positioning, your performances, etc. Sample rate is the least of your worries.

[BookhouseBoy]

Thanks for the reply! Yeah you're probably right.

I can export the midi for every keyboard track from my 96000 khz projects and then import them into new projects that are in 48000 khz.

There's nothing that's 96000 khz in the actual MIDI files right? Pretty sure it's not since it's just "key pressings".

How does one know if the interface clocks correctly at the selected sample rate?

I didn't know my interface would have problems with 96000 khz since I can select it and I can't hear a problem with it. But yeah, it is a cheaper interface compared to a lot. Sounds great though I think.

When people talk about plugins, do they mean things like reverb etc? The effects you can choose on the selected track?

 

You mentioned jitter... is that uneveness?

[Eriksimon]

Thanks for the reply! Yeah you're probably right.

I can export the midi for every keyboard track from my 96000 khz projects and then import them into new projects that are in 48000 khz.

There's nothing that's 96000 khz in the actual MIDI files right? Pretty sure it's not since it's just "key pressings".

 

That's correct. MIDI has nothing to do with sample rate. One small thingie that bugs me: your sample frequencies are a 1000 times too high; it's either 48000 Hz, or 48 kHz (the k from kilo meaning 1000). You now work with 48 million and 96 million Hz. Excuse my nerdiness.

 

When people talk about plugins, do they mean things like reverb etc? The effects you can choose on the selected track?

 

Well, not if they're photo people. They have different plugins. As do video people.

 

But, in audio, there are two main plugin types: inserts (like reverbs, EQ's, compressors, choruses, flangers, fuzzes et many cetera) and instruments (they only show on the Input box of a Software Instrument track.

 

 

 

http://documentation.apple.com/en/logicpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=3%26section=0

[BookhouseBoy]

Eriksimon: Thanks for the reply! In Logic is says 96,000 khz... but I think I know what you mean

Yeah I had a feeling I was right about the MIDI thing. Well it's a good thing most of my music is keyboards. That way I don't have to re-record that much. What sample rate do you record in?

[Eriksimon]

Eriksimon: Thanks for the reply!

You're welcome.

 

What sample rate do you record in?

 

44100 Hz.

 

48000 Hz is most commonly used in movies and broadcasting.

[BookhouseBoy]

Eriksimon: It seems 44100 hz and 48000 hz are the most common. I wish I could call Depeche Mode on the phone and just ask them what they record in lol

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Sorry, just have to chime-in OT to say to BookhouseBoy: Best forum name ever!

[BookhouseBoy]

Sorry, just have to chime-in OT to say to BookhouseBoy: Best forum name ever!

 

The owls are not what they seem

[David Nahmani]

You mentioned jitter... is that uneveness?

I was talking about jitter from the clock signal fed to your converters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter#Sampling_jitter

[BookhouseBoy]

You mentioned jitter... is that uneveness?

I was talking about jitter from the clock signal fed to your converters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter#Sampling_jitter

 

You mean when I record vocals, guitar and bass? Analog signals?

Sorry, newbie here

[David Nahmani]

Yes, when recording any analog sources you have to convert them from analog to digital and that's done by an A/D converter, which needs to be clocked. The clocks in inexpensive converters such as yours are rarely good enough to see any improvements at higher sample rates.

[BookhouseBoy]

I understand. Can my soundcard handle MIDI keyboards in 96 hz without problems? Then it's just digital within Logic Express.

I've started some new projects in 48 hz now.

 

If I had a more expensive recording interface, would I get better sound quality when recording MIDI keyboards?

I mostly use sounds within Logic. It's enough for me. Let's say my FireWire Solo is set to 48 hz and another more expensive recording interface is set to 48 hz and I record the same track using the sounds in Logic, would there be a difference in sound quality?

 

I just saw an interview with you on YouTube

[David Nahmani]

Can my soundcard handle MIDI keyboards in 96 hz without problems?

MIDI is not audio, and it does not have a sample rate. The sample rate is a parameter of your A/D and D/A converters, so it only concerns your analog audio recordings.

 

Your software instrument plug-ins can be played back at any sample rate you select for your project.

 

If I had a more expensive recording interface, would I get better sound quality when recording MIDI keyboards?

It's hard to tell what you mean, because you don't record a MIDI keyboard: you record a MIDI performance from a MIDI controller keyboard, which either triggers a software instrument plug-in, or a hardware instrument (tone generator). In turn the audio from the instrument is recorded and/or played back at a certain sample rate.

 

I mostly use sounds within Logic.

Then you're using software instrument plug-ins to generate an audio signal. Try different sample rates under Settings > Audio and see if you can hear a difference. Honestly I'd recommend keeping it simple and working at 44.1KHz or 48KHz.

 

Let's say my FireWire Solo is set to 48 hz and another more expensive recording interface is set to 48 hz and I record the same track using the sounds in Logic, would there be a difference in sound quality?

Not directly, no, but let me make a parallel here if you don't mind: if I paint using the same brushes, canvas and colors, but once in a room with inexpensive lighting, and another time in a room with great natural lighting, does the lighting influence the quality of my paintings? Not directly, no - but it may make a difference in what you can see while painting, meaning you'll be able to make more informed decisions as you paint. Same with a better audio quality interface: it would allow you to hear a better rendition of the music you produce, therefore be more critical of the sound you're producing and being able to make finer adjustments.

 

I just saw an interview with you on YouTube

Great! Hope you enjoyed it!

[BookhouseBoy]

Thanks again so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

I don't think I should invest in another interface. It's worked perfectly since 2006 and it sounds good.

I listened to the same track in different hz as you said. I couldn't hear a difference at all.

Since you're an expert, when you listen to a CD that is 44,100 hz, can you hear what the original recording was in? Can you hear what sample rate the song was recorded in? I'm guessing no but... maybe you have magic ears

I just ordered your book actually!

 

I have a question about my FireWire Solo interface. Probably shouldn't ask you about it since it doesn't concern Logic directly but I'll take my chances since I already have you on the line so to speak. If you look at the picture in the link.... it's the software for the interface. The "1/2 sw rtn" on the lft. It's set to 5. I'm not sure what this is but I think it's just the output volume. At 50 the volume is off and at 0 it's the highest. I don't think it affects the recording. I was able to record sound when it was at 50/off. it's always been set to 5. The guy who installed it for me set it to five I think. Just thought I'd ask you.

 

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m98i8chHxf1rswthko1_1280.jpg

 

My master volume in Logic is always set to 0.0. I saw you say that in another thread

[David Nahmani]

Since you're an expert, when you listen to a CD that is 44,100 hz, can you hear what the original recording was in? Can you hear what sample rate the song was recorded in? I'm guessing no

You're guessing right, I can't. But that doesn't mean there's no difference. When you go to a restaurant, can you tell what spices were used? Can you tell for how long the broth was simmered? No. Does that mean those things don't make a difference? No.

 

 

I have a question about my FireWire Solo interface.

Since that question is not related to the topic of this thread, please start a new thread for it. It's perfectly ok to ask non-Logic specific questions in this "Music Production Techniques and Gear" forum. Just only one question/topic per thread: Forum Rules - please READ THIS before posting (#4)

[BookhouseBoy]

Ok will do

 

I'm glad I'm starting to understand how things work. Since I use the sounds withing Logic only, ESX24 etc, you wrote:

"you don't record a MIDI keyboard: you record a MIDI performance from a MIDI controller keyboard, which either triggers a software instrument plug-in, or a hardware instrument (tone generator). In turn the audio from the instrument is recorded and/or played back at a certain sample rate."

 

When does the recording interface come into play? In my case FireWire Solo. I know it does when you record vocals, guitar, bass, analog stuff etc. I listen to the music from Logic Express through the interface either via headphones or monitors. I control the output volume to the headphones or monitors on the interface. So the interface is involved in the playback of tracks in Logic at least in terms of volume. When I bounce a MIDI track, for example an ESX24 track, I bounce it in a 48000 hz WAV file, does this involve the interface? I'm talking about the actual bounce and the quality of the sounds in that bounced WAV file. It feels like it's more an internal thing within Logic and doesn't involve the interface directly. But I could be wrong.

 

Maybe this question should be in the other thread too. Sometimes it's hard to know where the line goes.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

When I bounce a MIDI track, for example an ESX24 track, I bounce it in a 48000 hz WAV file, does this involve the interface? I'm talking about the actual bounce and the quality of the sounds in that bounced WAV file. It feels like it's more an internal thing within Logic and doesn't involve the interface directly. But I could be wrong.

 

You are correct.

 

As long as the digital information stays in the digital realm as 0s and 1s, nothing can affect the "sound quality" as such, it's just 0s and 1s.

 

The interface's main job is to convert digital information into analogue information, and vice-versa. On output, this is so that it can be heard through your speakers. This is how an interface can affect the quality of playback, with the quality of its converters. It does it the other way too, converting the analogue input of microphones or DI instruments into digital information that can be processed by your computer.

[BookhouseBoy]

When I bounce a MIDI track, for example an ESX24 track, I bounce it in a 48000 hz WAV file, does this involve the interface? I'm talking about the actual bounce and the quality of the sounds in that bounced WAV file. It feels like it's more an internal thing within Logic and doesn't involve the interface directly. But I could be wrong.

 

You are correct.

 

As long as the digital information stays in the digital realm as 0s and 1s, nothing can affect the "sound quality" as such, it's just 0s and 1s.

 

The interface's main job is to convert digital information into analogue information, and vice-versa. On output, this is so that it can be heard through your speakers. This is how an interface can affect the quality of playback, with the quality of its converters. It does it the other way too, converting the analogue input of microphones or DI instruments into digital information that can be processed by your computer.

 

Thanks for the reply! I'm starting to understand more now.