Compression Difficulties

[Shane Collins]

Im using compression quiet allot lately and, just getting used to this and i run into this problem quiet a bit. I compress a kick, or snare, im using Logic's Compressor.

 

This is an example of what im working on right now, So the Kick is peaking on the channel meter, So i lower the fader to -17dB which will give me a peak of -5dB on the meter, which is good headroom. So now i need to sort out the kick and the peaking frequency within it, because by lowering the fader, its not peaking but its very quiet in comparison to the rest of the track.

 

So on the compressor i set my threshold/ratio on peak mode and even though ive set the threshold to something like -30dB with a ratio of 5:1 which lowers the output considerably its still peaking.

 

I figured out, hope this is right that the reason it was still peaking was the compressor was not compressing fast enough, so i set a ver fast attack time, a silly time of 0.5 which (takes away the body of the kick making it flat) almost solves the problem, it does stop the peaking like i thought but just barely, so now i cant turn up the Gain output by anything without peaking it again. Frustrating, i hope i explained that well enough.

 

This is my dilemma

[ski]

You don't need to create headroom on channel strips. Yes, it's good practice not to overload them (even though they are virtually immune from overloading in most cases) but that's another matter. Oh, and lowering the fader has no effect on the compressor. The fader is always post-FX. With that said...

 

In terms of peaking, it's really unclear what you're trying to avoid. When you say the kick is peaking on the channel meter, by how much? Is it going into the red? Or is it just peaking as kick drums (are supposed to) do (in most cases)? Peaking in and of itself is not in itself a bad thing. How much a sound peaks all has to do with the context of your track.

 

If you're not getting enough squash on your kick (for whatever effect you're going for) then consider using a different compressor type (Class_A, FET, Opto, etc.). Each one has a different response and sonic flavor. For example, the FET will noticeably color the sound, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

But if you do experiment with different types, be prepared to alter all of your settings to accommodate the response of each one. For example, let's say you've gotten close to the desired result with Class_A, but you want to try FET. Your attack, release, threshold, and ratio settings may have to be very very different from what you had with Class_A to get that particular compressor type to work for your sound.

Edited October 17, 2012 by ski

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

First off, I'd say don't use compression to alter peak levels (in general). Use it to change dynamics (difference between quietist and loudest bits) and shape attack/release of sounds, timbre comes into it too (different circuit emulations, distortion etc.).

 

Here's some options to start:

1) turn everything else down

2) let the kick go into the red, as long as your output isn't clipping

3) see what it sounds like with a limiter on it

 

[ski beat me to the draw!]

[SteveO]

I would activate the EQ plug-in on that track, then turn on the analyzer to see exactly which frequencies are spiking.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I would activate the EQ plug-in on that track, then turn on the analyzer to see exactly which frequencies are spiking.

 

Could be good too, but what I was trying to get at was if Shane has the kick sound he wants already, in terms of frequency and compression, then he shouldn't have to alter that sound for the sake of levels. That's why turning everything else down was first in my list of options.

[David Nahmani]

if Shane has the kick sound he wants already, in terms of frequency and compression, then he shouldn't have to alter that sound for the sake of levels.

Huge +1 with that reasoning there.

[ski]

+1 to the +1, considering that we don't really know what the problem is, be it a peaky freqy™ or something else.

[Shane Collins]

I would activate the EQ plug-in on that track, then turn on the analyzer to see exactly which frequencies are spiking.

 

Could be good too, but what I was trying to get at was if Shane has the kick sound he wants already, in terms of frequency and compression, then he shouldn't have to alter that sound for the sake of levels. That's why turning everything else down was first in my list of options.

 

Thats a very good point really. In most cases, most of the samples i used will peak, it goes into the red so i turn it down, which makes it allot quieter in comparison to the rest of the tracks. But i think i get what your saying, instead of compressing it, just turn down all other tracks to its level? Which in turn makes the overall output quieter, thats what im afraid of lol

 

Im not doing this to long, and im still getting used to the the fact i dont need everything to sound loud, i really just need sounds close to each others levels

Edited October 17, 2012 by Shane Collins

[Shane Collins]

 

In terms of peaking, it's really unclear what you're trying to avoid. When you say the kick is peaking on the channel meter, by how much? Is it going into the red? Or is it just peaking as kick drums (are supposed to) do (in most cases)? Peaking in and of itself is not in itself a bad thing. How much a sound peaks all has to do with the context of your track.

 

 

Peaking by 6dB and yes going into red

[ski]

 

In terms of peaking, it's really unclear what you're trying to avoid. When you say the kick is peaking on the channel meter, by how much? Is it going into the red? Or is it just peaking as kick drums (are supposed to) do (in most cases)? Peaking in and of itself is not in itself a bad thing. How much a sound peaks all has to do with the context of your track.

 

 

Peaking by 6dB and yes going into red

 

OK, good to get that clarification. But going into the red on a channel is no reason to use a compressor. Do you understand that concept, or do you need an explanation?

[David Nahmani]

instead of compressing it, just turn down all other tracks to its level?

YES.

 

Which in turn makes the overall output quieter, thats what im afraid of lol

Did you read lagerfeldt's article on loudness when producing? Hopefully it will help alleviate some of your fears and make you more confident about producing loud tracks.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

But i think i get what your saying, instead of compressing it, just turn down all other tracks to its level? Which in turn makes the overall output quieter, thats what im afraid of lol

 

When you're mixing, don't be afraid of having an overall low output. Use the volume knob on your amp/speakers to get it to the level you want to work at. Once the track is mixed, then you can worry about the output level, and apply compression/limiting to the whole mix to raise the level.

[Shane Collins]

instead of compressing it, just turn down all other tracks to its level?

YES.

 

Which in turn makes the overall output quieter, thats what im afraid of lol

Did you read lagerfeldt's article on loudness when producing? Hopefully it will help alleviate some of your fears and make you more confident about producing loud tracks.

 

No, where can i read this ? thanks

[Shane Collins]

 

In terms of peaking, it's really unclear what you're trying to avoid. When you say the kick is peaking on the channel meter, by how much? Is it going into the red? Or is it just peaking as kick drums (are supposed to) do (in most cases)? Peaking in and of itself is not in itself a bad thing. How much a sound peaks all has to do with the context of your track.

 

 

Peaking by 6dB and yes going into red

 

OK, good to get that clarification. But going into the red on a channel is no reason to use a compressor. Do you understand that concept, or do you need an explanation?

 

If you dont mind that would be very helpful

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

No, where can i read this ? thanks

 

http://www.popmusic.dk/links-us.html

 

"Levels In Digital Audio"

 

[Shane Collins]

No, where can i read this ? thanks

 

http://www.popmusic.dk/links-us.html

 

"Levels In Digital Audio"

 

 

Thanks allot

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

You're welcome

[David Nahmani]

Actually I was thinking of another article - but both are good reading. Here's the one on loudness: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/468170-loudness-when-producing-mixing-tips.html

[ski]

If you dont mind that would be very helpful

 

Most of what you need to know is contained in Lagerfeldt's guide. However, here's what I want to share...

 

Compressors are used to shape dynamics, as Rev. said. Their purpose is not to provide an "automatic" or "band aid" fix for levels that are simply too hot. And what you see as a hot level on a channel may not even be a problem (I'll get to that in a second). Any time you use a compressor, you will be altering the sound AND affecting the level. If you like the sound you had and simply want to tame levels of a bunch of tracks because they're too hot, turn down the level of all tracks proportionately.

 

You can't mix by numbers, and you can't mix by watching meter colors. Since 99 times out of 100 you can't distort a channel strip even when they're going into the red, so just seeing the meters pegging doesn't mean there's a problem sonically. Thus, there's no reason to put a compressor into use to lower the level because it's going to unduly affect the shape and tone of every sound. Instead, just lower the level.

 

How your tracks compare loudness-wise to similar tracks should not be of concern while you're producing and mixing. Loudness maximizing is something you can do to your final mix.

 

HTH

Edited October 18, 2012 by ski

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Actually I was thinking of another article - but both are good reading. Here's the one on loudness: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/468170-loudness-when-producing-mixing-tips.html

 

Ah yeah, cool. Another uber-helpful lagerfeldt gem!

[Shane Collins]

If you dont mind that would be very helpful

 

Most of what you need to know is contained in Lagerfeldt's guide. However, here's what I want to share...

 

Compressors are used to shape dynamics, as Rev. said. Their purpose is not to provide an "automatic" or "band aid" fix for levels that are simply too hot. And what you see as a hot level on a channel may not even be a problem (I'll get to that in a second). Any time you use a compressor, you will be altering the sound AND affecting the level. If you like the sound you had and simply want to tame levels of a bunch of tracks because they're too hot, turn the level of all tracks proportionately.

 

You can't mix by numbers, and you can't mix by watching meter colors. Since 99 times out of 100 you can't distort a channel strip, just seeing the meters go into the red doesn't mean there's a problem sonically. Thus, there's no reason to put a compressor into use to lower the level because it's going to unduly affect the shape and tone of every sound. Instead, just lower the level.

 

How your tracks compare loudness-wise to similar tracks should not be of concern while you're producing and mixing. Loudness maximizing is something you can do to your final mix.

 

HTH

 

Thanks for this, much appreciated, and im going to have a read of them articles too

[ski]

You're very welcome!

 

Lagerfeldt's article on levels is very informative. The info may take some time to absorb, and it may inspire additional questions too. Ultimately the best way to really understand what he and the rest of us are advising and teaching here comes when you're actually working on a project, and then another one, and then another one. It will eventually all sink in if you give yourself the latitude to gain experience over time.

[SteveO]

There must have been a multiple-thread merge, because my response didn't have any posts above it save for the original one at the time I submitted it!

[David Nahmani]

There must have been a multiple-thread merge, because my response didn't have any posts above it save for the original one at the time I submitted it!

You are correct sir. And a PM was sent to you. Click the pink message button in your toolbar at the top of this forum to read it!

[Shane Collins]

I read them articles and they are excellent indeed, Im pretty sure i will be ok with levels going forward now

 

But, compression again, for me this one subject is so frustrating, maybe im thinking about it to much. Ok so i know how to use the parameters, i know what its for, ''A compressor's role is to reduce the dynamic (volume) range of the audio file or instrument onto which one is inserted, effectively lessening the volume gap between a part's quietest and loudest moments.''

 

And then once you have achieved this, simply turn up the make up gain to bring the volume back to where it was before compression.

 

Now, i take it because its called compression that any sound being compressed above the threshold is being 'squashed' down? Like for example, with a Limiter the sound above the threshold is simply being cut, destructive lost signal, bye bye, but with a compressor is it just being squashed down? so you don't lose any of the audio file itself?

 

Im not sure if a compressor squashes down an audio files volume above a threshold defined by the ratio and keeps the audio wav/information and simply just lowers the volume or cuts it like a limiter. And when people say its used to shape a signal instead of lowering volume thats what makes it confusing, (and in what regards is it shaped?) because there is lowering of volume going on, this is where my brain turns to mush lol

 

Im not sure why im finding this so hard to understand but its just one of those things lol and its something i really need to understand because compression is such a fundamental part of music production

 

So again thanks for the help

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Limiters can work like an extreme form of compression.

 

Clip limiters "chop-off" peaks above the threshold, but not all limiters work this way.

 

The "shaping" of the sound comes from the attack and release settings, and the effect of this will depend on the pitch of the material too (just to make it more confusing). For example, with a relatively long attack, you will let more of the initial transient come through before gain reduction starts kicking in, which will lead to a more pronounced attack relative to the attenuated tail.

 

Maybe this article will help: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep09/articles/compressionmadeeasy.htm