Guitar Players, How Do You Get A Good Rock Sound?

[BigWheel]

Hi,

 

I've been recording in Garage Band and Logic for a little over a year and I've struggled to find a good guitar sound for hard rock. My biggest issue is that all of the amps have a solid state feel and I need the warmth of tubes. I can ultimately end up with a decent sound in the mix after I've recorded and tweaked the settings. But when I'm playing it just doesn't feel right and it effects my playing and creativeness. I grew up playing through a Marshall (back in the 80's) and I'm looking for that type of sound.

 

I use an M-Audio Fast Track Pro to go into my iMac. I play a Fender Strat and I'm about to change out the single coil pups with humbuckers. I know this won't be the silver bullet that fixes everything, but I bet it will give me a better starting point for the sound I want.

 

I've played around with AmpliTube and POD Farm just a little so I don't have much experience with plugins. Do you think a POD will be a big improvement over the amps that come with Logic?

 

Can anyone relate to the solid state feel of Logic amps and have you found any solutions?

[Gravity Jim]

The only modeler I know of that "feels" anything like a tube amp is the Fractal AxeFX, and it costs a stupid pile of money. Also, leep in mind that a lot of that "feel" you're used to is from the volume of the amp in the room.

 

Yes, humbuckers might help. But here are some things I've learned from using modelers for many years:

 

1. Yes, I do think that Amplitube or POD Farm can sound better than Logic's own amps. although no one modeler does everything well.

 

2. Record with way less distortion than you think you need (a Marshall roar isn't nearly as bbroken up as people think it is).

 

3. Layer guitars (that massive recorded sound is rarely just one guitar).

 

4. Give your doubled electric rhythm parts punch and sparkle by layering an acoustic guitar playing a similar part (ask Pete Townshend about this).

 

5. Track it loud!

[strikingtwice]

Welcome to the ultimate tradeoff. You can have 300 amps at your finger tips without the balls, but the convenience of a dry track, infinite tweakability, limitless creative possibility, but with a good bit of elbow grease.

 

Or, you could plug in your marshall half stack, fix up a mic, position it, try to get a decent recording volume because you got a great idea at 10pm and your neighbors may not think it's as great of an idea as you, get a good sound tweak a bit, and get the take of your life with that and ONLY that sound.

 

Ha, seriously though, life long guitar player, and I feel your pain. I have logic's, pod farm 2, and NI Guitar rig's amps. They're all very good. They all sound good. They don't feel good (necessarily). I have the ZBox from MOTU, and as much as I love that company and their hardware, i really think it missed the claim. I still use it, really just to get my money's worth.

 

I have to echo all the stuff that Jim said (I just saw that he responded to this literally as I hit the reply button), but it's all good info. The other alternative, and you may not want to do this just to get an idea down but don't neglect that you still probably have a great amplifier. I have a modded hot rod deluxe and a mesa express 5:50. They feel WORLDS better than the best plugins at all. Throw a track down with it, then beef it up with models! There's a whole load of sheiße that you can do with re-amping (try Radials re amp box).

 

What kind of hard rock? Metal guitars are completely different than "hard rock" guitar sounds. Metal has the very tight sound where a hard rock tune that's doing open strum power chords may not be as squelchy.

[strikingtwice]

The only modeler I know of that "feels" anything like a tube amp is the Fractal AxeFX, and it costs a stupid pile of money. Also, leep in mind that a lot of that "feel" you're used to is from the volume of the amp in the room.

 

Yes, humbuckers might help. But here are some things I've learned from using modelers for many years:

 

1. Yes, I do think that Amplitube or POD Farm can sound better than Logic's own amps. although no one modeler does everything well.

 

2. Record with way less distortion than you think you need (a Marshall roar isn't nearly as bbroken up as people think it is).

 

3. Layer guitars (that massive recorded sound is rarely just one guitar).

 

4. Give your doubled electric rhythm parts punch and sparkle by layering an acoustic guitar playing a similar part (ask Pete Townshend about this).

 

5. Track it loud!

 

Jim, do you find yourself just copying and pasting takes and choosing different amp sounds to do double tracking nowadays, or do you still take it twice? Have you ever tried the dupe and nudge by a few ms?

[Gravity Jim]

Striking.... I prefer to play the part a second time. It always sounds "livelier" to me. For a demo, I'll cut-n-paste, but for the final, I'll play the double (or triple as the case may be).

 

As for micing a real amp: I'm an Egnater Artist, and in the studio I use a Rebel 20, which is already an insanely versatile amp (power scaling, power tube blending, "bright: and "tight" switches)... in front of it, I run a Barber Tone Press and a Wampler Euphoria overdrive. with a Line 6 M13 in the effects loop.

 

From a clean Deluxe Reverb to a faux Dumble to a melting Fender tweed to a Marshall to a Triple Rectifier, I can dial in just about any tone I want in a few minutes.... mic'ed with a killer smooth ribbon like the amazing Sontonics Sigma, whatever I hear at the mic position is exactly what goes to the recording.

 

I was the world's biggest defender of modelers, and I still use Guitar Rig, POD's and amp effects in both Logic and DIgital Performer for demo work. But since I put together this extremely versatile (and surprisingly cheap) studio rig, I never use them for a final. FOr studio tools, the Rebel rules.

[David Nahmani]

Have you ever tried the dupe and nudge by a few ms?

That'll only give you some kind of odd phasing.... the only way to get a thick warm double-tracking sound is to double track in my opinion: re-record the same part trying to play it as close as possible but with a different guitar, or different pick up, different pick.... (even if you don't change anything at all the small imperfections in your playing are enough to give you the warmth and thickness you need).

 

Think about an orchestra. You know that part of the concert where all the strings play the theme together? They all play the same part, but it sounds huge, warm, thick, and moves you to tears. Why? Because they all have a slightly different sound, attack, vibrato, intonation, etc.... if you recorded a single violin and reproduced it 17 times with slightly different delays, slightly different EQs plug-ins, different pan positions, levels etc... could you get close to that sound? Not anywhere close IMO. You'd just get a big synthetic phasey fake violin sound that would make you cry for all the wrong reasons.

[BigWheel]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the replies. I've learned to go with "less is more" when using most effects and I do this with distortion as well. I do layer the guitars sometimes. And like I said, in the end, the sound is okay. It's really more about the feel. I guess it truly is a big trade off.

 

I looked at the Fractal and I don't have an extra $2K+ just laying around.

 

So let me ask this another way. If you had Logic and no other guitar gear for effects and plugins, what would you buy to get a good hard rock sound? Would you go with plugins or get a desktop unit like a POD? And if you could only buy one which would be your top pick?

 

And regarding the sound I'm looking for, I could name dozens but lets just go with a Slash sound.

[Spiralsurfer]

And regarding the sound I'm looking for, I could name dozens but lets just go with a Slash sound.

 

You could try Amplitube 3 with the Slash models. http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/cat-view.php?C=family-at-slash

 

I've been using nothing but amp plug ins and cabinet impulses for the last few years due to the wide range of sounds on offer, the convenience and cost, working with a couple of guitarists who are very picky about their sound and getting pretty good results. It does take some tweaking, but it is achievable. As mentioned by the previous posters, double tracking helps a lot, by actually playing everything in twice. I usually do at least one track on each side, sometimes two.

 

I've found the following plug ins useful:

 

Studio Devil http://www.studiodevil.com/products/amp_modeler_pro/

Amplitube 3 Custom Shop lets you try models for a couple of days so you can demo a few and see if any match the sound you're looking for.

ReValver Mk III.V http://www.peavey.com/products/revalver/

LeCto http://lepouplugins.blogspot.com.au/2010/10/lecto.html

 

Combine these with cabinet impulses like RedWirez http://www.redwirez.com/mixir2.jsp using mixIR2 or Logic's Space Designer to host them and you can definitely get some realistic sounds happening.

 

It's all in the tweaking

[DanRad]

Don't forget drop D or even C tuning. A lot of the heavier bands I hear these days are tuned down there, also, putting the "5th" of the standard rock 5th below the root (but above the bass) is another fattener. Synth bass instead of, or with your played bass will also make it feel big. I hate micing amps, but the best sound I ever got was one of the top LA guitar guys close miced through his Fender Champ Amp. I have Wave, Pod Farm (had) Amplitude and of them all, I like NI Guitar Rig.

 

The way you play has a lot to do with it. There is a muffling from the right hand that is also part of the sound of those big modern guitar tracks.

 

Lastly, not so much reverb, double tracked and panned. My 2.5 cents..

 

BTW. how do your spell "miced" can't find an accepted spelling.

Dan Rad

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I use amplitube custom shop heads with redwirez cab impulse responses, and I use the redwirez mixir plug-in to blend Mic IRs. The amplitube speaker emulation just ruins the good job they did on the amp emulation IMHO.

 

All in all I've probably only spent around £100 on this, which is very cheap considering how happy I am with the sounds I can get out of it.

 

I also use Nebula free (which essentially uses many different IRs, but dynamically and programme-dependent to more accurately model gear) and a free preamp for it called TopDog, this goes before the amp sim and really gives it a nice kick.

 

Though this is all done after recording, when I'm playing it's more important for me to have a 32 sample buffer than realistic sound, so I just use Guitar Amp Pro because of its small CPU hit.

 

Another thing to try for layering guitars: blend in a track (or tracks, as I tend to do seperate L & R versions of each blended layer) with a wah at a set amount - it can work really well in some cases.

 

EDIT: Hey, Spiralsurfer beat me to it (got distracted before hitting "submit"), when the Studio Devil demo first came out I was impressed at the modelling, it was the first plug I used that sounded like an amp, I've not heard them since though. Worth a try?

[Spiralsurfer]

EDIT: Hey, Spiralsurfer beat me to it (got distracted before hitting "submit"), when the Studio Devil demo first came out I was impressed at the modelling, it was the first plug I used that sounded like an amp, I've not heard them since though. Worth a try?

 

Studio Devil is definitely worth a try. Inexpensive and sounds good used with Redwirez impulses. I think the built in Studio Devil cabinets are Recabinet impulses, so they sound pretty good anyway.

 

I usually bypass the cabinet emulation and use either Redwirez mixIR2 or Recabinet with most of the amp plug ins I use, though not always - some sound fine. It really is all about experimentation and the individual sound you are after. There are some great preset sounds on Amplitube's preset exchange. I've used Logic's Guitar Amp Pro quite a lot with Delay Designer, with Redwirez impulses or just the stock speaker emulation for heavy Tool type sounds and had some good results. I forgot to mention NI's Guitar Rig 5, I also use that a lot as well.

[Eriksimon]

These guys have some nice (and free!) virtual modern retronica. I have only used The Anvil, and that I liked a lot. Not just for guitar either.

 

http://www.igniteamps.com/en/audio-plug-ins

[strikingtwice]

Yea, my guitar tech has the 30. I love that thing man. I was actually tossing around getting the tweaker, but caught a great deal on the hot rod, and the mesa 5:50 was actually given to me. Good setup though. I actually have said people who say money can't buy happiness have never owned an m13.

[blogan]

You've probably already tried this but insert a compressor on the guitar trk. I'm more of an R&B Jazz player, but I have a marshall, boogie, and various fenders, and yes, nothing is going to duplicate a live tube amp. But tube compression is why we like the tubes. Just an ever so slight delay that you can feel when you play. Just a thought.

 

I've been able to get pretty good sounds and FEEL when recording, with the amps in logic. I also mess with the different cabinet configurations, and mic, and mic proximity to speaker configuration.

 

Nothing can ever replace tube compression, except tube compression. You might get something that feels good when playing with a compressor in the channel, and mess with the setting a little bit.

[BigWheel]

Hey, thanks for the recommendation on the AmpliTube Slash amps. I just downloaded the trial version of both amps and I was pretty impressed. It was one of the best examples I've heard of a Marshall amp.

 

Tell me more about the Red Wire IR's. What are these impulse responses you speak of? It sounds like they allow you to bypass the speaker in your current amp plugin and use their speaker sims? Sorry, I'm still trying learn all of this.

 

I appreciate all of the advice and help!

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

http://www.redwirez.com/

 

Yes, you bypass the speaker sim and use an impulse response file instead. They are the same files that Space Designer uses to recreate the reverb of real places.

 

Redwirez has a free set of Marshall cab IRs that you can load into Space Designer to hear for yourself. Because of the huge choice of mic positions Redwirez have in their packs it will take longer to find the sound you want, but it's time worth investing IMO.

 

I would recommend their MixIR plug-in, much easier to deal with multiple mics than tons of instances of Space Designer, and a fraction of the CPU hit too.

[Spiralsurfer]

EDIT: I didn't see Rev. Juda$'s post, he beat me to it

 

No problems, I just picked up the Amplitube Slash amps myself.

 

Redwirez impulses are speaker cabinet impulses, you load them into either Space Designer in Logic or a dedicated speaker cabinet impulse plug in like mixIR2. So in Amplitube for example you would bypass the speaker cabinet section, then insert either Space Designer or mixIR2 in the next insert, load a Marshall cabinet or other cabinet depending on what you're after, with choice of mic type, distance from speaker and placement at speaker cap, cone or edge. I recommend the mixIR2 plug in because then you can run a couple of different speaker cabinets (up to 6) and blend the signal to suit between the different cabinet and mic types. So you can blend a close mic with a more distant mic and even add room sound to taste. You can buy the Redwirez impulses separately by cabinet brand or as a set. If you buy the BigBox collection you get mixIR2 free. That's what I did and it's been great, very useful indeed and not that expensive considering what you get. Here's a link so you can check it out:

 

http://www.redwirez.com/bigbox.jsp

 

I think combining these with the Slash amps you should be able to tweak your way to a great sound! It may take some fine tuning, but if you spend a bit of time on it you will find some good sounds.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

EDIT: I didn't see Rev. Juda$'s post, he beat me to it

 

Now we're even

[Spiralsurfer]

Lol yep

[deckard1]

+1 for Redwirez and their mixIR2! I just got it about a week ago and it makes a substantial difference. I use it with my Sansamp distortion pedal and I also use it for getting good clean sounds as well. Sounds terrific!

 

You can demo it using Space Designer at the above mentioned link for Redwirez.

[marcel72]

Silverface Fender Champ - $400-ish. Just make sure some douche hasn't put a high wattage speaker in it over the years. Supro/Valpro, etc. are also nice options, but much more hit and miss.

 

Lindy Fralin, Lollar, Bareknuckle, etc. pickups for your guitar - $300. Don't buy Fender's modern junk. Do some research into the potentiometer and capacitor values and wiring layout in a '60s Strat, buy those parts, and rewire your guitar to match those schematics. Buy some pickups from the manufacturers listed above. Trust me, it will be like a different guitar.

 

Sennheiser e906 - $200-ish used. There are many ways to mic a cab, but this is a great, cheap, easy to use, stick-it-against-the-grille-cloth option. As long as you have the correct side of the mic facing the speaker (it is cleverly stencilled 'front'), it probably won't let you down.

 

Great rock guitar sound for under $1k. And that amp is quiet enough to be used just about anywhere. It's only when you hear it through a mic that it sounds huge.

 

Best, Marcel

[steveo12ax7]

I've been spending a lot of time lately demoing plugins and cab sims to try and get myself a nice roster of usable guitar tones in the box (I'm a guitar player, and picky about my tone). The other guys have pretty much covered the important stuff and I agree with them, so I'll just add my 2c.

 

- RedWirez impulses are completely worth it, even just the free Marshall cab (although once you get into loading impulses you'll want to buy it just for MixIR2).

- LePou has released AU versions of his very popular free amp sims and they have some of the best "feel" you can get in simulations.

- Amplitube has some fantastic amps in the custom shop, their SLO is very close to the recorded sound of my own real Soldano.

- Compression and EQ before your signal hits the amp sims can help a lot. Don't be afraid to treat the signal chain like a guitar track, and not your own analog rig.

 

No single product covers all the bases yet, but there are some great aspects of many of them. Personally I've narrowed my plan down to buying the RedWirez BigBox, a few amps from Amplitube's custom shop, and then just adding here and there when I find something that works. Even Logic's amp designer has some great tones in it.

[krist]

I grew up on Marshall and Fender tube amps. But I've also had to rely on amp simulation extensively, starting w/ Roland stuff back in the early 90s, to track demos. I was an early adopter of Line 6's POD, way back in 2000. Since then, I've also worked w/ pretty much every software amp sim out there, as I had to rely on software exclusively while on tour.

 

For me, in terms of sound, they all have their flaws, be it a POD or a software amp sim, but, I do seem to play better when using a POD than when opting for software only. I remember reaching a point last winter when we were in Russia where I thought I'd completely lost it as a guitarist, because all I had was software.

 

Obviously, there are many cases where software amp sims will be sonically superior to a POD, particularly when used in conjunction w/ impulses. But I'll pretty much always prefer the performance that was tracked using the POD.

 

One thing that helps close the gap when working w/ software amp sims is to compress/prime the signal just a tiny bit before it hits the converter. For that purpose, even a cheaper compressor will work - a pedal like Boss Compression Sustainer. If you have a Tube Screamer, you may also want to give it a try - not to add dirt but just to tighten up that flaccid guitar sound. I often use a DBX rack unit to just give the signal more "bite". It seems to get me closer.

 

That being said, in terms of performance, nothing beats an actual amp.

 

Anyway, in the end, for me, there's got to be some hardware involved at one point or another - short of an amp, a pedal, a rack unit, a POD or whatever. Though I know that some people are happy recording direct w/ nothing but the amp sim.

[Presence]

Hey Krist, was just wondering what DBX rack are you using for that purpose? I kept around an old DBX 286a mic preamp, not sure if that would be useful. I had a bunch Boss pedals at one point that I sold that I wish I hadn't. Also had a sansamp psa-1. I would have loved to hear how that sounded going into Logic now.

[krist]

I'm using a 266XS compressor/gate - definitely not what you'd call a nice compressor, but for this purpose, it works just fine. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it but I grabbed one for peanuts last summer in NY - and then DBX threw a second one my way for free.

 

In fact, the guy who first suggested adding a comp to my signal chain uses an old Behringer if I'm not mistaken. The idea is that we're not looking to really compress the signal as much as to just prime it a bit before it hits the converters. As such, the compression barely shaves 2-3 db here and there, but allows me to shape the sound and it helps building a little bit of sustain before it hits the converters.

[Presence]

Thanks for the idea will definitely try once I get my hands on a cheap compressor pedal. (like that blue boss compessor pedal I had damm!) And a real tube screamer pedal as the front end with the dist all the way down might be cool too. I guess it's basically doing the same thing as in the insert strip by putting a compressor or a boost of some kind before an amp sim. By the way the Slash booster pedal in AT3 is really good for this, nice and beefy as is the torpedo pi free plug.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Ignite amps have a great modded tube screamer plug-in. For free!

[krist]

You're welcome. What pushed me in that direction is that I first tried to add Wave Arts' excellent Tube Saturator in front of the software AT while I was messing around. The results gave me a hint that I might be looking in the right direction. As you mention, the Slash Booster in AT can also give a taste of what we're after. The Diode Overdrive in AT is also good at that. Or the free Ignite Amp TS 999.

 

I do prefer the results when we apply that concept before the converters, but that being said, I can agonize over the tiniest detail for days when it comes to guitars. I guess that that blue Boss comp could be even better than the DBX, but since I had those sitting around...

[Presence]

Yeah it will be interesting to hear the differences with hardware pedals into the Duet. Oh how could I forget the TS-999! Also TSE Audio is starting to port over all his plugs to AU. He's got a tube screamer that's suppossd to be really good. So far only the Rat pedal is AU and it's awesome. Check it out- http://www.theserinaexperiment.net/software.html

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Wow, thanks for that TSE link! And it only costs a beer!

 

I was very underwhelmed with the Amplitube Rat, and their Tube Screamer sucks IMO.

 

I've been meaning to try my Guv'nor pre-interface, I'll definitely give it a go tomorrow now.