need serous help for logic in hybrid mixing situation

[Aramism]

this has been something that has been bugging me for a while but is becoming more of a problem as my workflow is this setup increases.

 

first let me explain my set up and workflow and then hopefully someone can help: i am using logic primarily for mixing and have a hyrbid setup. i have mac pro with apogee symphony interface and the symphony 64 card. all my mixing is done using analog summing and rely on a lot of outboard gear (compressors, eq, effects, etc.)

 

so i submix stems as stereo outs into a dangerous 2 bus and then record back the 2 track in logic as a stereo track with input monitoring on. so when i mixdown a song i am doing it in realtime and one stereo track is armed recording the 2-track back from the dangerous 2 bus. at the same time I use the I/O utility plug in for outboard gear. for instance, will run a bass through a tube tech compressor and a vocal through lexicon delay.

 

using these 3 as an example let me explain what my problem is: i am experiencing odd latency-type issues. for instance, once i set up my session in logic with the summing mixer i notice that what i hear and what is on the screen doesn't add up. even if i put the metronome on it doesn't line up with the audio. the audio seems to be lagged. so for like edits or looking at audio regions there is a slight difference between what i see and what i hear. like without the setup being in hyrbid if i want to find a downbeat or a bad note in a vocal i can listen and zoom in on a region and when i hear it stop and see exactly where it is, but in hybrid mode it is slightly off.

 

this "non syncing" also creates paranoia within me. let's say to use my example of bass. i have a bass track in a rock song and i want to process it with compression. now i put the I/O plug in as an insert and go out into the patchbay into a compressor and then come back on a return. it's hard for me to hear but to my ear sometimes it sounds slightly off. and it can throw the bass out of the pocket of the song.

 

i know this sounds silly but it seems so slight that when i try to "ping" for compensation in the I/O plug in i can't tell if it makes it better or worse. this especially becomes problematic when i have a tracks that i want to parallel compress. let's say a kick drum. the main version is treated in the box but the parallel version is outboard gear. if the two tracks are not 100% in time it will cause problems with the transients not being aligned.

 

i do not have this problem when working in cubase in the same studio and setup (hybrid mixing with analog summing)

 

i'm thinking maybe i don't have things set up right. none of these issues exist in cubase with things being out of sync. how am i supposed to be doing it and am i doing anything wrong like settings or procedure????

[RedBaron]

so i submix stems as stereo outs into a dangerous 2 bus and then record back the 2 track in logic as a stereo track with input monitoring on

 

Why not use your Symphony's DSP mixer to send the Dangerous 2 Bus recording straight out to your monitors? You record those channels in Logic AND send them to your monitors at the same time. That's how I do it. I never software/input monitor the stereo output (return) from my summing chain, I send it straight back out. This will save you a whole round-trip.

 

What I/O Buffer Size are you using?

 

Have you determined your base Recording Delay, without any I/O Plugins inserted?

 

 

at the same time I use the I/O utility plug in for outboard gear ...

 

Remember, if you use the I/O Plugin on Auxes you incur a round-trip (+/- outboard device latency, aka Ping). If you place an I/O plugin on an insert of an input monitored track, another round-trip occurs (fully latency compensated) before the round-trip incurred by the I/O Plugin(s) you have on your Auxes. That's potentially 1-2+ extra round-trips because of the use of I/O Plugins.

 

 

... parallel version is outboard gear. if the two tracks are not 100% in time it will cause problems with the transients not being aligned.

 

Logic always keeps audio aligned at the outputs. However, when you use the I/O Plugin on an Aux, your recordings will be late. Logic delays faster audio streams, so that these audio streams line up at the outputs with slower audio streams. The result will be that your recordings appear late. What you hear at the outputs should be correctly lined up though. Typically, incorrect pinging of your device may only mean a potential error of about 1.5-3 ms. If that's not jittering, that may be hard to hear, but obviously precise Pinging is essential for sample accuracy and transient phase. But your problem sounds to me like it's clearly audible, so I think something else is going on.

 

Are you pinging when your outboard is in bypass?

 

 

i do not have this problem when working in cubase in the same studio and setup (hybrid mixing with analog summing)

 

Have you thought about going straight to summing from your outboard instead of using hardware inserts? My best 3 outboard FX take up 6 channels of my summer. No extra round-trip. Also, 2 of my other FX aren't coming into Logic at all. I eq a little in TotalMix and send the FX returns straight to summing again, on any stem I want. My FX is still all hooked up as hardware inserts if I want to print digital anytime.