MikeShapiro Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Hi forum, I have a few Gigastudio PC's routing in through External instrument plugins. During a loud cue my levels are fine for each individual instrument, but going way into the red in the Output channel. (i.e. the mix itself) I'm curious if there's any difference between lowering each of the External instrument plugins (i.e. the Gigastudio feeds) by a few dB versus simply lowering the Output channel level. Does one approach better preserve bit depth or any other aspect of audio quality? Or are they exactly equivalent? Thanks in advance! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkik Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Hi! I am so hesitant to reply... I would approach it with proper gain structuring, using pre-fader levels intiially to determine what is feeding what with how much. In *most* digital audio apps in a native arena, you can actually "overfeed" the main outs, and then by simply backing off the main fader, eliminate the clipping of that main out..which is in direct contradiction to certain analogue principles. In a completely native solution, such as Logic Pro, with 32-bit float, some may treat this as license to ignore levels feeding inserts/sends/plug-ins, as the general *rule* is that with 32-float, the headroom is nearly limitless. While in certain circumstances, this could apply, I would 100% discourage applying it in this manner, and instead use proper gain staging that would apply to analogue, digital, hybrid, whatever. Good habits are good habits IMO. But, there is nothing preventing you from taking advantage of what we have in the digital realm, that we may not have in the analogue realm!!! As for "preserving bit depth" and such... this is where serious debate can occur. And, I have seen it get ugly. My personal experience, and most I have debated this with, agree that we do not need to push into the "yellow" too hard when working with 24-bit audio files in a 32-bit float environment. Your converters have so much headroom, and since the cons of recording too hot to try to "preserve bit depth" are FAR more damaging than erring on the side of caution could ever do, it is simply good practice (IMO!!!) to track with the converter hitting -6db or less, and ditto for the app itself. Funky stuff goes on when pushing those upper bits, and you are not ever going to utilize 22-bits, let alone 24. 16 bits is actually enough, even if one uses caution there as well. However, 24-bits is even safer, provides a bit of a "comfort zone" and simply is good sense to use IMO. I could go on and on, and then cite professionals left and right (such as Bob Katz, Dan Lavry, George Massenberg, etc) and quote and reference public threads discussing this...but, opinions are opinions.... Another argument will come from the side that fully believes it is the most evil thing to move a fader. Yep, keep those DAW faders at unity if at all possible, and simply track with proper levels that form the best mix. While there is *some* validity to this, I personally do not perceive the "destruction" that non-unity faders being summed can cause as being anything but very, very negligible. So, bottom line, IMO, feed those input channels from Giga with pre fader monitoring showing -6db or less, and then at your next sum point, if it is overloading, lower the faders feeding IT, or simply lower that sum point (main outs, for instance). With pre-fader metering, and even throwing a meter into the first insert, you can pretty solidly establish what is going on where, and then adjust accordingly. Try to avoid overloading any "point" in the chain, with extra attenton paid to the levels being fed directly into any plug-ins, and what comes out of them. That's my 3 cents. And that is all it is worth- use your ears, use common sense, but take the time to seriously consider each step. There are a thousand ways to approach anything...and then some... Good luck! (BTW- Tascam is supposed to be working hard on the GVI plugin for Mac!!! Woohoo!!!! As a XP->OS X convert, I cannot wait!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 If, as you say, they're OK coming in at the interface, leave that part be. That's the only place you'll lose bit depth by reducing level. Reducing level on the output object is fine because from your Instrument object channels to the Output object, it's a 32bit floating point audio path. (Unless you insert some plugin midstream that converts to 24 bit fixed, but these are getting rare now.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeShapiro Posted April 27, 2007 Author Share Posted April 27, 2007 Thanks so much. I definitely got my money's worth with that reply! I remember being told that it's okay, in Logic, to let the input levels go into the red occasionally, since the 32-bit internal mixing can handle the "overages". Conceptually this makes sense, but I'm not brave enough to try it. I wouldn't mind all this complexity if the paradigm (and thus my DAW routing) didn't keep changing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Nikki beat me to it. He does have a good point about "good habits", but in your case, if you're careful about what you're doing, you'll still be OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 I remember being told that it's okay, in Logic, to let the input levels go into the red occasionally, since the 32-bit internal mixing can handle the "overages". Not the input levels. As Nikki suggest, use prefader metering there and don't let that go into the red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 There was a HUGE couple of threads about this with every aspect imaginable discussed. Search for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkik Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 She. But no worries- it happens alot Going into the red. This is what the sighing was for. There are certain things that happen that are not visually represented in a DAW. Intermodulation peaks, etc. Going into the red is NOT a good idea, it is the direct opposite of "good idea." I do not have the time to present one of the lengthy explanations and such that I have done so many times (applause here for my not doing so! ). Instead, I will simply say, and offer to provide references to anyone who would care to spend the time perusing them and then deciding for themselves what the "best" way to do things is. PM me, email me...more than happy to offer books, threads, etc. They provide relatively simple things you can do to actually show you why it is not a good idea, even though every fibre of your mind might be screaming out, "BUT NOOOOOOOO!!!! I need to use those 24-bits, or at least as many as I can!!!" It is like when you have some dinner, and it is SOOOO good. And your mind is screaming, "Yummy!!! Keep eating! KEEP EATING!!! Who cares if you are full!!! You can fit more, you KNOW you can!!! The stomach, it s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-s!!! We want more!!! Our preciousssssssessssssssssssss!!!!!! " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 She. But no worries- it happens alot Sorry Nikki, I won't let that happen again. I do not have the time to present one of the lengthy explanations and such that I have done so many times (applause here for my not doing so! So you're saying we've . . "dodged a bullet"? Seriously yes, this subject has been beaten to death, then rolled over and beaten some more and shot at several times. It can be exhausting, both as participant and witness! It always seems to boil down to 2 things though; you've got well over 110dB of usable dynamic range with 24bit even recording with so-so microphones, AND, don't always trust that your DAW software meters are telling you the truth. Uh-oh, I better shut up now. I'd hate to be the instigator of yet another multi-page forum tome . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkik Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 No worries.. You've all dodged ONE bullet... and yep- so severly beaten... I truly wish there were a single place that had each version of explanation of what is going on as far as bits and samples. There really are not many...2 or 3 I think, with "bastard-ized" sub-versions that go into lands of...well...lol.. Then at least armed with some info, forget ALL you just read, and use your damn ears!!! I saw and heard all kinds of myths about sex being bad, touching yourself is pure devil's work, etc, etc. You guys think you got those myths bad? Pfft- girls get a bit more stigma with it I think... I do not consider myself an evil person, and despite the little *tragedies* we all experience in life, it has been a blast. Discover your world, enjoy it. (BTW- I never did have any devil appear amidst any of my supposed "wrong-doings"...not that that proves anything ) What you are told deserves contemplation, experimentation, and self-experience. Even more so when what you are told just sounds completely ludacris (not to be confused with a certain musical artist...) As usual, there is a botom line in my world, once again! Simple one too: If it feels good, and does not interfere with someone else's enjoyment and pursuit of a fulfilling life, have a blast. You are not now, nor will you ever be, completely alone. Even if you are wrong :D (oops- guess that bullet grazed y'all...lol... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Hey, good words. Perhaps a . . "little more" . . than I really needed to know about you, but I respect your candor. (BTW- Tascam is supposed to be working hard on the GVI plugin for Mac!!! Woohoo!!!! As a XP->OS X convert, I cannot wait!!!) It's about time they stopped ignoring half the market. "Paying" market that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 so nikkik...are you the same nikkik of protools/duc fame ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkik Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 LOL! Yeah, I forget to censor myself at times... If anyone found it offensive, please say so, or PM...I will gladly remove/edit it. Was trying to drive home a point, and as I will do, I did not consider what it was I was saying til it was already posted and reread it. Of course, David, you are free to edit my remarks I will try to think of something perhaps a little more...erm... appropriate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 no it's not that i remember reading your posts on the duc...very knowledgable... ah the duc....... hours filled with reading about allensteins, quadzillas, davec's and generally loads of bulls&*t while my digi 002 lay there, barely compatible and generally uninspiring i had my 002 for a few months and was on the brink of building a core duo pc, when in a fit of desperation (or moment of perfect clarity) i sold my digi 002, bought a macbook pro and logic i now make music again...and most of the logic forums are inspiring and informative places to be...a real learning experience the duc was such a depressing place, full of people paying the price for a buying into a companies reputation only to find that the native version of this market leader just didn't cut it.... no track limits,mp3 encoding at no extra cost...conv reverb...free...all those instruments and plugs.....oh and the duc favourite...plug delay compensation if only those poor souls knew what they could have so you made the jump too....or did you always run both??? how are you liking it ??? sorry to hijack the thread it's funny how people always assume you are a guy..... maybe women just don't use daws or at least not women as knowledgable as you....how many dverbs do you think my beautiful macbook pro could get ??? is it even compatible ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkik Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 Hiya El! Well, I decided to leave "pro life" behind and concentrate on my own world for a bit, and for composing, PT just wasnt cutting it. Great for tracking, and for mixing. But I need MIDI, and virtual insturments for those musicians I cannot have at the ready anytime I please (lol). Since I switched to Apple when I went for a new system (selling off almost my entire rig! And after all that work I did on the XP stuff...), and since I am SOOOOO loving the OS X world (and Apple hardware, believe it or not!), I had DP, LP and C4 to choose from. After a couple months of torture (to me, and them), LP has won. LP, plus SIbelius 4, and Melodyne Studio3. Wicked combo IMO. No regrets, loving Logic Pro (almost as one might love their mistress' whip tho some days... ) Have a bunch of Kontakt 2 and GigaStudio stuff (from when I helped Tascam for a short period), but still have this weird fear of taking time to convert it all to EXS24. I almost want to remain able to jump between apps, and K2 is the only one that allows me that liberty...but EXS24 is so cool...bugger.. (sorry to 'jack the thread! just wanted to reply) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 Of course, David, you are free to edit my remarks I don't want to start censoring the forum! So far in the past 2 years I must have removed ONE comment (other than spam), and that was a nasty racial slur. I want you all to think of this place as a place where we are free to discuss openly and without censorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 yeah nikki... osx is a dream..... get the feeling i'll never buy a pc again.... even for day to day tasks i payed more than my budget for a little white macbook rather than pay for the headache that is windows anyway fare thee well and have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkgross Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 I bet if we start talking about clipping and stuff we'll get censored (VERY BIG GRIN) 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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