best mic and way to record sax

[Injured Rezz]

my studio is in a smallish square room, and i have a rode n1 mic, ive tryed recording he sax about a foot away to the side so as not to pick up unwanted noise from the air, i am however pickeing up the noise from the key presses on the sax. is there a good way to get around this, ie positions, or different mic. etc

 

im running a dual 2ghz g5 with delta 66 omni in/out box as the mic pre amp, and of course the n1 mic,

 

 

thanks

 

Reza

[Beer Moth]

Not necessarily a bad thing unless it's way over the top.

A lot will be lost in the mix,anyway, and it's at least real....

 

Or get your horn overhauled!

 

Maybe a bit less gain????

[bryla]

you shouldn't be afraid of air? but you could maybe pad the keys with some clothing so they don't get in the way of the notes being played

[marcel72]

Traditional mic choices for horns would be a Sennheiser 421, 441 or 409 dynamic close, and a large ribbon mic a little farther off, especially with an ensemble, an RCA (now AE) -77 or 44 (IIRC) or Coles 4038.

 

I have heard from some guys that a Royer R-121 is a nice single mic for brass.

 

Don't be afraid of a little distortion on the close dynamics, can really add energy to the sound (think 'Money' by Pink Floyd). Any good clean pre will work, pretty much anything for the dynamic mics.

 

I also know that the room where you are recording will be very critical to the sound you get... As always(!)

 

I have only done one real horn session, as a busy assistant, so as far as placement and EQ or dynamics technique, I can't be much help.

 

Best, Marcel

[Injured Rezz]

thanks for the response, i think padding the keys is a good idea, as the sax stuff ive listented to in the past dont seem to have any key pressing sounds in the recording, out of the mics that were surgested is there a particular one that you think would be good to go for that would have a good advantage over the rode n1 for this type of recording? (obviously cost being an issue )

 

thanks

Reza

[fader8]

Marcel's mic suggestions are good. My choice would be the Sennheiser 441. I've used that tons on saxes. Regardless of mic choice, you'd want it pointing almost straight down into the bell, to put the keys into the mics maximum rejection range, and to minimize room effects.

[marcel72]

I agree that the 441 would probably be the coolest, just from my experience of how they perform in other areas. This is on my list of mic's I constantly look out for, along with the Sony C-38, AKG D-19, and old D-12s.

 

The 421 is probably the cheapest and most available of these mic choices. Its off axis rejection (ability to pick up bell without getting keys) is also stellar.

 

Best, Marcel

[Drumhum]

Regardless of mic choice, you'd want it pointing almost straight down into the bell, to put the keys into the mics maximum rejection range, and to minimize room effects.

 

woa there!

 

I couldn't disagree more to that!

 

Most of the sound of a sax comes ~from the holes~. This is why you will often see two mics being used: one on the bell and one one the holes.

 

Courtney must value his hole sounds:

http://www.jazzpages.com/Schelpmeier/CourtneyPine_500p.jpg

(its hard to see the bell mic -but its there)

 

You will find that where most of the sound comes from depends on the note being played so if you just mic up one area (like the bell) you'll find that some notes seem more quiet than others.

 

Assuming the sax is being played solo (ie not with other players) I would suggest to use just one mic in the studio, positioned as much as 2m/6foot away about 6 feet up pointing towards the sax in general. many folk then put two close mics on it too (one on bell one on holes) to provide extra "tweak freedom"

 

If your acoustics are not so good then you might have to go in closer to get a more direct dry sound but this will bring out the clicking key sound. Now I mention this could this be why you have too much click with the keys, that you are too close? If acoustics is the problem don't forget to try other rooms - even the corridor/hallway/bathroom etc etc.

 

If the key clicks are excessive then it will be down to the sax itself or the player, or the mics are too close.

 

One mic that has not been mentioned yet, which is a very popular model for sax is the Electrovoice RE20. Oh and the sennheiser 421 (sort of little brother to 441)

 

Personally I would use a nice capacitor mic such as a neumann U47 or km84, An akg414 might be nice too. Dynamic mics are used a lot live where they are placed close to avoid feedback and to compete with the drumkit etc, but they can certainly still provide a good sound in the studio, and often are.

[ajlayne22]

Drumhum is right. For woodwinds sound comes out of all the "pores" of the intrument. Thats why there are no straight mutes for saxes. Also with the keys, the player might just need new pads. As they age they get hard and "loud"

[BassBottom]

Trust marcel72 suggestions. He really knows what he is talking about. The Sennheizer 421 is the way to go. I also like the Neumann TLM 193 but Its a little more expensive than the Sennheizer 421.

[fader8]

Regardless of mic choice, you'd want it pointing almost straight down into the bell, to put the keys into the mics maximum rejection range, and to minimize room effects.

 

woa there!

 

I couldn't disagree more to that!

 

Well I'll respectfully disagree with that.

 

Your suggestion is certainly true in ideal situations, but ignores the original posters issues; a clicky sax in a small square room. Under those conditions, you'll be forced to compromise.

[Drumhum]

fader8

 

I take your point but one can compromise too far! Only mic-ing up the bell is a step too far to me. Its like only mic-ing the bass strings of a piano because there isn't room for a second mic stand for the treble strings - "it'll be fine so long as you only play the notes below middle c", said the engineer

 

It depends entirely on what results are desired, but if the only way you can record a sax is to stuff a mic down the bell then perhaps you need to accept that you just don't have the resources to record a sax. I struggle to believe that though. If acoustics are bad (and no other space is suitable - like I suggested earlier, hallway, kitchen etc) then close mic-ing might be the only way. Two mics, one on bell and one on holes, will bring a far better recording than just one on the bell.

 

Another suggestion is consider using an omni mic (no really) about 1 foot from the middle of the sax, so that it is "hearing" both holes and bell equally. being so close should minimise "room sound" a great deal and one can try using blankets, quilts etc draped on mic stands to help the room too. There's no proximity effect and the "sweet spots" are typically larger too. I say this as omni mics are my latest fad. I've found myself using them (earthworks and akg414 mostly) on all sorts of things I would not have considered before. I used Omni's for all instruments of my last project which included acoustic gtr, mandolin, violin, shakers and hand drums.

[Injured Rezz]

thanks again for the comments, im going to give it a go with nt1 mic 1 foot from the middle of the sax as a little distance a drumhum suggested, and try to sort out some padding for the sax keys! i cant quite afford a new mic quite yet although the 421 looks good for the money. what other instruments is it good for?

[marcel72]

Common 421 uses include kick drum, toms, bass cab...

 

I like them much better than a 57 close on a guitar cabinet, doesn't have the high mid hype of a 57 (or most cheap LDCs, for that matter).

 

Originally designed as a broadcast mic, IIRC. Close realtive (sonically) of the SM-7 and the RE-20, with perhaps a little more attenuated bass than either of these.

 

All around good mic, been the same for many years, which is actually pretty rare. Nothing super hip or cool, just good solid sound. I tend to feel better when I purchase things that fall in this category, rather than gear that is 'fashionable'...

 

But I'm old and boring.

 

Best, Marcel

[Drumhum]

As we are talking mics, for those that don't know there is a great mic web site -thanks to Rycote.

 

http://www.microphone-data.com/

 

Pretty much every mic known to man (and its spec) can be found here. A very good collection of articles too in the "Library"

 

You have to register but its free.