What commercial recordings look like in Logic!

[David Nahmani]

Hi everyone, I thought I would share some interesting observations I have about how professionals use Logic in the real world.

 

Over the past few months, I have had the privilege of working with high-caliber professional producers (http://www.logicprohelp.com/clients.php), and on top of that, I have had the opportunity to open Logic session files of chart topping hit songs from multi-platinum producers in various genres, ranging from pop to rock to dance to rap to hip-hop, so my comments will be mainly for those genres. Classical, orchestral, jazz or acoustic recordings might follow different rules.

 

After looking at all those sessions, here are 3 points I find interesting:

 

• 99.9% of commercial recordings are recorded and mixed at 44.1KHz or 48KHz and 24 bits. (and after talking with some of the major industry players, it seems that's true of all modern music records, not just the ones produced in Logic)

 

• Nobody cares about hitting the red on the channel strip level (which is justified since Logic is 32 bit floating point). A lot of the sessions I have seen have more than half the channel strips way above +6dBFS.

 

• A lot of producers use pretty much 70 to 80% Logic plug-ins, and just a couple of 3rd party plug-ins. Several highly-successful producers (I wish I could name names) use 100% Logic plug-ins AND instruments !!!

 

It really seems to me that while many spend time arguing, debating, testing, and fighting over the advantages of higher sampling rates, the importance or proper gain structure in a 32 bit floating point mixer, or the necessity of this or that 3rd party plug-in that will change your life, a few couldn't care less and just use their ears, producing incredible sounding results and getting the money they deserve for it.

 

My conclusion? Manufacturers would LOVE for you to believe you need higher sample rates, faster computers, and more 3rd party plug-ins. Meanwhile, in many cases, you don't. The big advantage of Logic over competing DAWs is how Logic is self-contained. It's a package coming with high quality plug-ins, and high quality instruments. In many cases you have more than you need to make a beautiful record. Don't get too caught up in those debates, and spend more time producing music!

Edited May 18, 2007 by David Nahmani

[yojames]

Since we're pummeled continously with the latest, greatest, got-to-have gear, it's refreshing to hear your findings on the music we listen to everyday. What an insight! It brings us back to reality. I have to ask though, any 3rd party plug-ins seen consistantly? I am in no way limited by what Logic can do, but I'm curious to see where the pros go when they need that "somethintg else".

[AllyMusicGirl]

Marry me...

[David Nahmani]

 

I have seen quite a lot of Waves plug-ins. Especially the L1. You might want to give that free L1 clone a try!

 

http://www.yohng.com/w1limit.html

[nikkik]

Hehehe... all one has to do and look at human history, and despite thinking that "our generation" has more knowledge and insight DUE to the past being known, the average human will blindly follow. Most will even go so far as placing various amounts of energy/effort into proving to others (and thus, themselves) "how right" their belief is...when they could have placed that energy into research, physical and within themselves, and make (GASP!) a truly personal observation.

 

Waaaayyyy back in the day of first playing with personal computers, the amount of free stuff was overwhelming at first. I, like many others, filled up on this stuff, bloating and bloating and bloating. And I collected hardware pieces as well. And then I realized it was all distracting me. Life is far too short to waste time on some of this stupid stuff IMO.

 

Very cool to know, makes me feel better about some of my decisions (knowing others out there in Logic-land are doing similarly).

 

I have to know- how was it working with Steve Porcaro? Get to meet/hang with Mike or Jeff? So wild when you get families with that much talent...

[nikkik]

Oh yeah! Any chance of a walk through of one of your sessions some time David? With some screenshots? I would be very interested in the philosophy/thinking behind the workflow, and how you adapted your workflow as things progressed.

 

Actually, I think that would be a cool thread...maybe a cool section on a forum... "How I (we) wrote, recorded, mixed and mastered this song" Funny thing is, Logic actually has the feature set to allow a user to do a walk-thru like this for a song! But, how many of us actually have the time for all that extra work?

[xsiter]

yeah, I read an article a while back about the producer for bowies "reality" album , he used Logic to compose, demo, mix it all within Logic.

That is a great record by the way.

I also only use Logic plug's, wouldn't mind having a few 3rd party ones, but I have a lot of what I need.

 

-Gabriel

[David Nahmani]

I have added a banner at the top of the forum, link to Joe Hedges, which was produced by Blumpy. 100% composed, mixed and mastered in Logic, with some Waves plug-ins, EXS24s for drum replacements and some percussions, an ES2, a couple 3rd party plug-ins and a ton of Logic plug-ins (especially about 2 compressors/track!).

 

Interfaces used: MOTU 896 with Apogee clock, and RME Fireface 800.

[semtek]

Really interesting that so many pro producers use logic plugs. I can certainly see the benefits of working in this way. The human ear is able to recognize songs played back at even 1bit resolution, and so it's no surprise that the subtle differences imparted by certain 3rd party plugs are not essential to the end product.

 

However, I think it's important to note that great recording artists and instrumentalists are much less likely to need processing, especially if they are well recorded. If the quality of the source material is high enough then you could practically mix on any software as long as you have decent digits (good converters).

 

I've really got two points here:

 

1. Plug ins are perhaps most useful when working with material that's been recorded in less than ideal circumstances - as is the case for many bedroom producers.

 

2. If you're making electronic music, the plug ins are your source material in many ways, and it's worth getting to know which vstis work best with which vstfxs, in the same way you would pair a vocalist with a mic or preamp.

 

Rant over.

[David Nahmani]

2. If you're making electronic music, the plug ins are your source material in many ways, and it's worth getting to know which vstis work best with which vstfxs, in the same way you would pair a vocalist with a mic or preamp.

I forgot to add that a lot of those sessions are actually electronic dance music production. You'd be surprised how many famous electronic artists don't worry so much about what 3rd party plug-ins to get, and use the included ones in Logic.

[Ashermusic]

I wrote a lengthy response but i am deleting it as i realize I will not convince someone on the tenth argument that I did not convince on the other nine.

 

I will only say there are reasons that most of today's music is sonically dreadful despite technologivcal advances.

[David Nahmani]

most of today's music is sonically dreadful despite technologivcal advances.

 

Well there's a blanket statement! There are still great sounding tracks produced everyday, and the ones I have seen are some of them, at least to my taste. Again, modern music, so rock, pop, hip-hop and electronic music.

 

And semtek, while I agree on your point #1 (I have seen EXCELLENT sounding mixes in Logic that don't use a single plug-in at all - so my guess everything was in the performance, the room, the mic, mic preamp and converters), the sessions I was talking about in this thread make an intensive use of both processing and instrument plug-ins.

[Ashermusic]

most of today's music is sonically dreadful despite technologivcal advances.

 

Well there's a blanket statement! There are still great sounding tracks produced everyday, and the ones I have seen are some of them, at least to my taste. Again, modern music, so rock, pop, hip-hop and electronic music.

 

Go hang a little on the PSW forums and see what M.E.s in Brad Blackwood's forum, engineers in Terry Manning and Ross Hogarth's forum, etc. have to say about today's music overall sonically, not artitstically. Most of it is way over-compressed and distored.

 

The fact that one likes it does not make it good sonically just as the fact that McDonalds sells billions of burgers does not make it good cuisine.

[David Nahmani]

Sounds like another endless discussion is building... I'll pass!

[Ashermusic]

Sounds like another endless discussion is building... I'll pass!

 

LOL!

Good decision.

 

Seriously though folks, if you rely too much on David's opinion, my opinion, friend's opinions etc and do not avail yourself of the wealth of knowledge of these kind of guys who have been working with the top artists of the last 40 years and have a level of craft beyond what many of today's "producers" have you are missing the boat on a resource that i would have killed to have when I was beginning.

 

i am still constantly learning from them and I hope I never stop learning.

 

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/

[Simon]

I wrote a lengthy response but i am deleting it as i realize I will not convince someone on the tenth argument that I did not convince on the other nine.

 

I will only say there are reasons that most of today's music is sonically dreadful despite technologivcal advances.

 

I could not agree more....... There has been the trend of over pushing the final volume on mastering, and this trend is destroying the dynamics of the music.

 

I have always hated chart music ( well here in the UK).. it sucks big time unless you are below 20, and people just do not look for the more unusual stuff.......

[nikkik]

Sounds like another endless discussion is building... I'll pass!

 

LOL!

Good decision.

 

Seriously though folks, if you rely too much on David's opinion, my opinion, friend's opinions etc and do not avail yourself of the wealth of knowledge of these kind of guys who have been working with the top artists of the last 40 years and have a level of craft beyond what many of today's "producers" have you are missing the boat on a resource that i would have killed to have when I was beginning.

 

i am still constantly learning from them and I hope I never stop learning.

 

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/

Hehehe... yeah, heavily opinionated discussion can get so out of hand.

 

My only wish for someone reading thru ANY forum, or working with ANY engineer/producer/musician/etc is to learn the Laws. Then, begin to absorb Rules, and opinions, especially those of the more experienced people. But please- DO NOT mistake those things as being Laws; they are not, and never will be! At the same time, disregarding non-Law completely is plain ignorant IMO. If one were to learn under someone like, say, Phil Spector, and take that as Law, they would simply be...another Phil! But, learning under Phil and then realizing Laws, and adapting the pieces of wht they get from Phil and then finding their OWN "sound" is a good path (IMO!!!).

 

The "volume wars" and other things that tick me off (and others)..yeah, I am not fond of alot of production today. I am not into music produced for a specific target, crafted by teams of writers and producers and such... but, as much as I do not like it, I respect the fact that for many, this is their golden cow. They love it, see it as art, and fill their lives with a virtual non-stop soundtrack filled with it. Cool! More power to ya! But, it took me a long time to be able to see it that way. As sad as I think things are in the mainstream, I think it has always been this way, and it is simply a matter of degree. But, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction; the one from this is that it has opened up a world unheard of 20 years ago. For instance, I can now write my music, despite handicap, and I cna make it available to a community that is so much larger than it would have been back then, due to the very technology that has provided tools for the type of *music* I do not see as "art." (well, not the same type of art ).

 

Use the tools you have, make music, share with those around you who appreciate it. Entertain, provoke thought...emotion...dream. But please...PLEASE.. never forsake the ability to educate. Learn the Laws so you can break the Rules with some balance, and a hint of reasoning, driven by emotion and expression.

[nickweston]

I just finished an album with a Platinum-selling artist, producing 4 of the songs.

 

I used 90% Logic plugins (as I do on everything I do), and mixed in the box.

 

One of the other producers did everything through vintage summing boxes, printed to 1/2 inch, recorded at 88.2, etc. etc...very anal guy.

 

the mastering guy told me that my mixes sounded sonically the best on the album, that he had to do the least tweezing. Hmmm...

 

My point is, it's the EARS

 

the rest is needless discussion, really, IMHO. I believe technology is at a level where if you're truly talented (and experienced), you can get great sound out of just about anything.

The flip side is that is you don't have great ears, all the Apogee/96k/2inch analog stuff really means nothing.

zzzzzzzzzzz

[editbrain]

i always thought it was easier to draw a square than a landscape.

 

hey! what do i know?

[Beer Moth]

If you've got a ruler...

[Rolo Tomasi]

the rest is needless discussion, really, IMHO. I believe technology is at a level where if you're truly talented (and experienced), you can get great sound out of just about anything.

The flip side is that is you don't have great ears, all the Apogee/96k/2inch analog stuff really means nothing.

 

Probably not a truer statement spoken. Well said.

[editbrain]

If you've got a ruler...

 

or.. if you got a compressor/limiter

 

but not really i mean....

[themiddleman]

Great thread/post. Couldn't agree more. Just add a decent channel strip/front end and a Sherman Filterbank too;) Logic rocks.

[noeqplease]

I wrote a lengthy response but i am deleting it as i realize I will not convince someone on the tenth argument that I did not convince on the other nine.

 

I will only say there are reasons that most of today's music is sonically dreadful despite technologivcal advances.

 

Hi,imagine seeing you here...I was just in for some "icons"...

 

Yes,absolutely.Gone are the days of "The Song Is King".

 

I work in top20 radio music service,and also engineer a lot of the weekly "Top 20" radio shows heard around the globe.

 

So far,none of us at work here are blown away by any songs at all.It pretty much is a weekly competition to see what artist actually is WORSE!!! That's way easier than trying to see who has a good song.I ge to hear about 150 songs a week for the radio supply service,and they are all pretty bad.The only rare exceptions are established artists from back 30 years or so.They still seem to care about songwriting.They never get Top 20 airplay though...not anymore.

 

This Summer,after building my studio in my back yard garage,I'll be making some Jazz Fusion music.Forget Top 20!!! Forget "success"!!!

 

Cheers!!!

[editbrain]

noEQ, i have to say that it must suck to have your job.

 

i mean to work for people that have the opportunity to change what we hear on the radio but still choose not to.

 

 

i listen to NPR if I choose to listen to FM/AM.

 

 

I wonder when/if the US/EU/JP markets will ever choose to get off this shitty road there on, and stop poisoning our youth.

[nickweston]

this thread is getting distorted, but that's cool, it's a lot like making music.

 

Anyway-

 

no worries, radio is dead anyway, people now can dig for good music on their own and don't need some jive Clear Channel deciding "what's good."

I really believe (and hope) that those days are over.

 

BUT-

 

there is a lot of GREAT music out there. You just have to go look for it!

 

subscription/sattelite/internet radio/ all good, people will pay not to hear "and your mattress is FREEEEEEEEE"

[Ashermusic]

this thread is getting distorted, but that's cool, it's a lot like making music.

 

Anyway-

 

BUT-

 

there is a lot of GREAT music out there. You just have to go look for it!

 

 

Nick et al just to be very clear I wasn't commenting on the quality of the music, just how lousy many if not most of the recordings are sonically due to the current taste for over-compression and even intentional digital clipping.

 

The music itself is a whole other discussion:)

[nickweston]

to be clear, I was responding to the radio guy who isn't hearing good songs coming down the pipe in radio....just saying that radio is so controlled that it's almost impossible for something good to pop through...

 

definitely agree with the over-compression thing though!

 

here's a pretty cool article addressing that issue if anybody's interested:

 

http://www.austin360.com/music/content/music/stories/xl/2006/09/28cover.html

[noeqplease]

noEQ, i have to say that it must suck to have your job.

i mean to work for people that have the opportunity to change what we hear on the radio but still choose not to.

i listen to NPR if I choose to listen to FM/AM.

I wonder when/if the US/EU/JP markets will ever choose to get off this shitty road there on, and stop poisoning our youth.

 

I LOVE my job...what engineer do you know that has a 9-5 schedule? Not many,I bet.I do get to do quality control on all the music we sell to the International market.Believe me,you do not want to hear the stuff that I throw out!!! So in a way I am doing something.Now,how it is done....I can't tell you exactly...State Secrets and stuff...

 

As far as the Markets changing,well...it's a lot more complicated than that...

 

For example,we do NOT place out on the air ANY song that has explicit lyrics.So all the Hip-Hop guys MUST deliver a "clean" version of their music.That's a start.Also any ultra-violent stuff..forget it.

 

One of the big problems is that since we have to cater to the Sub25 market,THEY dictate what they want to hear,and we know just how gullible THAT market is.Whatever is "in" is what they buy and listen to.Yuck.Right now they want to listen to what you hear on the Top20.

 

Everybody thinks that the labes give out "payola"....well not in International markets,as muchas the US market,as there is less money there to compete for.Plus,the International markets usually FOLLOW the US market.Mostly.

 

I gues the thing to do,is,when you're within earshot of those nice teenagers you see at the mall,just say something like "yuck,that music is so old" to whatever they're listening to,because,believe it or not,OUR teenagers are the "trendsetters" in Radio.

 

There's my Radio Rant...

[noeqplease]

this thread is getting distorted, but that's cool, it's a lot like making music.

Anyway-

no worries, radio is dead anyway, people now can dig for good music on their own and don't need some jive Clear Channel deciding "what's good."

I really believe (and hope) that those days are over.

BUT-

there is a lot of GREAT music out there. You just have to go look for it!

subscription/sattelite/internet radio/ all good, people will pay not to hear "and your mattress is FREEEEEEEEE"

 

I underlined that comment,because it simply is not true.At least not in the rest of the world.In most 3rd world countries,Radio is the ONLY way to address the masses both with entertainment,advertising,and news.People in other countries that are not 1st world,cannot afford a TV,much less a computer,iPod,iTunes,etc..etc...etc...

 

In this country,USA,well,thanks to the "free" market,companies ar free to MONOPOLIZE things like Radio,and make it the fantastic mess it is now.You should hear the DJs complain about their freedom of speech being destroyed (Don Imus,anyone),all because the bottom line must be as large as possible.Don't thank Clear Channel,thank the Sponsors,who pay for the air time.The SPONSORS.That's the products you buy at the supermarket all the time.

 

As long as we all live in a free market,there will be a comapny advertising their products to us,and indirectly affecting what we see,hear and talk about.

 

Cheers