What commercial recordings look like in Logic!

[Meezy]

David how come Darude isn't on the VIP users List? How many other major dj/producers post on this forum I wonder!

hehe . . .Hi Darude!. . .hehe . . . my name is Meezy . . hehe

 

Sorry I'm star struck

[David Nahmani]

I haven't updated that list in a while. One more thing on my plate! (Darude definitely belongs there)

[Ashermusic]

A couple of thoughts:

 

My conductor in college used to say, "My boy, music is 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration." He was right.

 

Going from bad to better choices:

1. Bad skills-mediocre gear.

2. Bad skills-good gear

3. Good skills-mediocre gear

4. Good skills-good gear

 

Logic plugs are fine and if you have the requisite skills you can make good sounding music.

 

That said, there simply is another level of plug-in quality.

 

The UAD-1 for example has great plugs, the latest of which is a modern Neve channel strip, surprisingly CPU and UAD-1 card use efficient.

 

Someone with good skills who makes great sounding tracks using the Logic plug-ins will make even better sounding tracks with plug-ins like this.

 

The Logic plug-ins, while fine, very usable, and IMHO the best included plug-ins with a Daw, noneheless do not inherently sound as good as these. No way, no how.

[David Nahmani]

I'll take it one step further: I'd rather have a good song than a good recording anyday. In my opinion, it is neither about skills or gear, or talent, but about emotion. If there is emotion, I'm in. Give me someone who doesn't know how to use a mic, and give him a 4-track cassette deck, if he knows how to capture an emotion, I'll buy that recording over any high-tech good sounding non-distorting recording of an emotion-less track anyday.

 

Example? Ever heard PJ Harvey's 4 track demos (iTunes link? Even Bjork's "Post" has digital distortion... an not because the engineers didn't notice it, but because they knew it was a smarter decision to keep a distorted track with a LOT of emotion than to re-track something clean without that same emotion.

 

So anything that can capture the emotion works for me. Whether it's Logic, a 3rd party plug-in, a 4 track cassette deck or a was cylinder, I couldn't care less. One of my favorite albums of all times (Remanufacture by Fear Factory) was programmed in Cubase on an Atari. Another one (Stereo MC's Supernatural) with a couple of AKAI S900 and a hardware sequencer.

 

I was watching "Shooter" the other day. The soundtrack is "grandiose", but lifeless. No emotion. OK you've got all your great sounds, amazing orchestra reproductions, great distorted guitar tones, incredible sounding drums... but at the end of the day the result is BO-RING. Oh and I'm sure they used a lot of 3rd party plug-ins on that one. . . In fact I'm in general bored by all the soundtracks of recent major Hollywood movies.

[Ashermusic]

I'll take it one step further: I'd rather have a good song than a good recording anyday. In my opinion, it is neither about skills or gear, or talent, but about emotion. If there is emotion, I'm in. Give me someone who doesn't know how to use a mic, and give him a 4-track cassette deck, if he knows how to capture an emotion, I'll buy that recording over any high-tech good sounding non-distorting recording of an emotion-less track anyday.

 

Example? Ever heard PJ Harvey's 4 track demos (iTunes link? Even Bjork's "Post" has digital distortion... an not because the engineers didn't notice it, but because they knew it was a smarter decision to keep a distorted track with a LOT of emotion than to re-track something clean without that same emotion.

 

So anything that can capture the emotion works for me. Whether it's Logic, a 3rd party plug-in, a 4 track cassette deck or a was cylinder, I couldn't care less. One of my favorite albums of all times (Remanufacture by Fear Factory) was programmed in Cubase on an Atari. Another one (Stereo MC's Supernatural) with a couple of AKAI S900 and a hardware sequencer.

 

I was watching "Shooter" the other day. The soundtrack is "grandiose", but lifeless. No emotion. OK you've got all your great sounds, amazing orchestra reproductions, great distorted guitar tones, incredible sounding drums... but at the end of the day the result is BO-RING. Oh and I'm sure they used a lot of 3rd party plug-ins on that one. . .

 

Absolutely but why does it have to be either/or? We have a right to expect both in this day and age and if there is emotion and talent there is no reason for it not to sound great other than shear laziness or lack of skills.

 

The Beatles had talent and emotion big time but even though the technology was limited they were working with some very talented and well trained engineers, not to mention a great producer, and as a result they made recordings that sounded great and were artistically satisfying as well as commercial. THAT is what we should be aspiring to.

 

Of course, a lot of this is subjective. Much of the music you like David I hate and probably the same is true of music I like for you. Like you my daughter loves P.J. Her vocals are so out of tune, by design my daughter tells me, that it is so painful for me to listen to that I just cannot get past that.

 

Anyway, this is all kind of OT. The bottom line for me is that IMHO as their skills improve and of course when they can afford them Logic users should start to explore some of the wonderful 3rd party plugins out there.

[nebula]

Nah. 2 17' trumps it vertically, which IMHO is more important for Logic than horizontally, and it is a heck of a lot cheaper. Do the math.

 

Keep telling yourself that. I picked up a 30" Dell to replace my 2 x 21". I will never look back. (I would have preferred the Apple, but 800 bucks is 800 bucks). Seriously - for Logic, vertical (how many tracks you can see on an arrange window) and horizontal (how much time in Arrange, how many mixer channels) are both important. And suddenly that space in the middle of your workspace that used to be divided by two physical displays becomes usable.

 

If you have the means, no combination of smaller monitors is better than a 30" at 2560 x 1600.

[Ashermusic]

Nah. 2 17' trumps it vertically, which IMHO is more important for Logic than horizontally, and it is a heck of a lot cheaper. Do the math.

 

Keep telling yourself that. I picked up a 30" Dell to replace my 2 x 21". I will never look back. (I would have preferred the Apple, but 800 bucks is 800 bucks). Seriously - for Logic, vertical (how many tracks you can see on an arrange window) and horizontal (how much time in Arrange, how many mixer channels) are both important. And suddenly that space in the middle of your workspace that used to be divided by two physical displays becomes usable.

 

If you have the means, no combination of smaller monitors is better than a 30" at 2560 x 1600.

 

Here we will simply have to agree to disagree. I love being able to have my screensets with different editors assigned to the two monitors and able to drag them back and forth. And that screen resolution is just too small and fine for these tired old eyes.

 

Now if I could have 2 30", well......

[David Nahmani]

Absolutely but why does it have to be either/or?

Agreed. Emotion should be the utmost priority, then comes talent (however you define that), then skill, then gear.

 

I guess I wouldn't even have started that thread if people were reasonable in their use of 3rd party plug-ins, like, for example, Darude seem to be. What got me to start it is that I find a danger in the perpetual quest for the best gear out there. It didn't start with DAW's, guitarists are the same with their pickups, their strings, their pedals, amps, tubes, modifications and whatnot. When Eric Johnson says he can hear the difference in tone depending on the brand of the battery used in his pedals, it's one thing. When a guitar student spends hours everyday arguing over that topic, you want to tell him to get a great tone in his fingers first. I had the chance to personally see Eric Johnson play the shittiest 15W transistor amp one day, and he sounded... AMAZING!

 

In fact as a kid I remember spending hours upon hours salivating over catalogs of new parts for my BMX bike. In the world of flatland (freestyle acrobatics on the ground), the necessary item was a good rotor: a piece that allows you to turn the handlebar 360 degrees as many times as you want without tangling your break cables. When I finally could afford one, I watched videos of the absolute best of the best flatland riders: they didn't even use breaks on their bikes.

 

So beware and don't get caught by the hype. Don't ask "What does that 3rd party plug-in do, and do I need it", but ask yourself "I need a better XXX (compressor/EQ/whatever), which 3rd party plug-in is going to give me that?".

 

And just like Darude suggested, after a while, stop buying new stuff and get to work with what you have. Or you'll spend most of your time buying and learning new plug-ins and researching, which can be exhilarating, but doesn't make you produce more or better music.

 

But yeah, once in a while, a new instrument can be a good source of inspiration. I remember at one point I started researching a good bass sampler instrument, and after a few days I slapped my forehead with my right hand, opened my wallet, took my credit card and ordered... a Bass guitar! Best $125 I've ever spent.

Edited June 28, 2007 by David Nahmani

[David Nahmani]

Here we will simply have to agree to disagree.

That's because you guys don't work the same way. If you like to always have both a mixer and an arrange open, then 2 monitors might be a better choice. If you like to use screensets and mostly need one big ass arrange window, nothing can beat a 30". I'm always amazed when I work with one. You tend to forget how to scroll on those, since you don't need to! You can see the whole song right in front of you, at a decent zoom level. Priceless.

 

I'd love a 30"! But for now I have to make do with my 20" which is really not that bad.

[Ashermusic]

Absolutely but why does it have to be either/or?

Agreed. Emotion should be the utmost priority, then comes talent (however you define that), then skill, then gear.

 

I guess I wouldn't even have started that thread if people were reasonable in their use of 3rd party plug-ins, like, for example, Darude seem to be. What got me to start it is that I find a danger in the perpetual quest for the best gear out there. It didn't start with DAW's, guitarists are the same with their pickups, their strings, their pedals, amps, tubes, modifications and whatnot.

 

In fact as a kid I remember spending hours upon hours salivating over catalogs of new parts for my BMX bike. In the world of flatland (freestyle acrobatics on the ground), the necessary item was a good rotor: a piece that allows you to turn the handlebar 360 degrees as many times as you want without tangling your break cables. When I finally could afford one, I watched videos of the absolute best of the best flatland riders: they didn't even use breaks on their bikes.

 

So beware and don't get caught by the hype. Don't ask "What does that 3rd party plug-in do, and do I need it", but ask yourself "I need a better XXX (compressor/EQ/whatever), which 3rd party plug-in is going to give me that?".

 

And just like Darude suggested, after a while, stop buying new stuff and get to work with what you have. Or you'll spend most of your time buying and learning new plug-ins and researching, which can be exhilarating, but doesn't make you produce more or better music.

 

But yeah, once in a while, a new instrument can be a good source of inspiration. I remember at one point I started researching a good bass sampler instrument, and after a few days I slapped my forehead with my right hand, opened my wallet, took my credit card and ordered... a Bass guitar! Best $125 I've ever spent.

 

We are in total agreement.

 

But ooh, la, la, this UAD-1 Neve 88RS is sweet!

[David Nahmani]

But ooh, la, la, this UAD-1 Neve 88RS is sweet!

Definitely. In fact that's the one 3rd party plug-in I would really consider adding to Logic. It sounds pretty amazing.

[nebula]

Someone with good skills who makes great sounding tracks using the Logic plug-ins will make even better sounding tracks with plug-ins like this.

 

The Logic plug-ins, while fine, very usable, and IMHO the best included plug-ins with a Daw, noneheless do not inherently sound as good as these. No way, no how.

 

Can they be made to sound exactly like Logic's plugs? If not, is your assertion not purely subjective?

 

Will a synth player sound even better in front of a Minimoog than a Virus?

 

(To be fair I haven't heard the UAD stuff - maybe I should try it out)

[Darude]

And just like Darude suggested, after a while, stop buying new stuff and get to work with what you have. Or you'll spend most of your time buying and learning new plug-ins and researching, which can be exhilarating, but doesn't make you produce more or better music.

 

But yeah, once in a while, a new instrument can be a good source of inspiration. I remember at one point I started researching a good bass sampler instrument, and after a few days I slapped my forehead with my right hand, opened my wallet, took my credit card and ordered... a Bass guitar! Best $125 I've ever spent.

Haha, if anyone's ever listened to my first album they've heard (maybe even recognized) the inspirational power of JP8080 and NordLead2... Two or three presets of those machines more or less tweaked and mangled are the foundation of the sound of that album (and many of them still are in use, though best bits sampled to EXS24), and why? Because we freaking loved the new worlds that we heard in those new synths my producer friend had just bought to his studio.

 

There are very few things more inspiring than going thru well-made preset sounds of a brand new synth... But with the price-to-preset ratio we get these days with softsynths it's gotten so ridiculously overwhelming! When I get my current album project finished I've already planned I'll have synth-learning and preset-checking week (or a month!) with at least two or three synths that I've had for two years yet still barely scratched their surface...

 

Same goes with fx & processors: I have a PowerCore FireWire system that I've used very little outside Character, which is fantastic. I just am so used to certain Logic's plugin interfaces, you know, down to the colour and placing of knobs etc, that I feel confused if I try to do something quick with some of the PoCo plugs. You can tell me that a TC channel strip sounds better than Logic's and I believe you but for me at the moment the difference is minimal and so not worth the learning curve. The gadgets we have had say the last five years are on a level where pretty much no one can blame the equipment if the piece of art sucks, it's the dude in the mirror who's responsible. Trust me, I've been there, I am there...

[nebula]

And just like Darude suggested, after a while, stop buying new stuff and get to work with what you have. Or you'll spend most of your time buying and learning new plug-ins and researching, which can be exhilarating, but doesn't make you produce more or better music.

 

Hear, hear.

 

The original post in this thread pertains to "what the pros are using" and that people might be surprised to hear how much people are using Logic's native suite.

 

The fact is, Logic's stuff sounds somewhere between good and great. The plugs themselves are mostly clearly laid out, it integrates beautifully with Logic, and everything you want is right under your fingers (thoughtful additions like a good-quality built-in spectrum analyzer in the channel EQ are a godsend).

 

Now, how much time do I have to sift through all the crap that's out there to find something that sounds even better and still suits my workflow? Is it worth it then take the time to install Audio Units (and/or host DSP cards) that may cause other issues?

 

The only non-Logic thing I'm using lately is Arturia's Minimoog V, and even it causes issues.

[Ashermusic]

Someone with good skills who makes great sounding tracks using the Logic plug-ins will make even better sounding tracks with plug-ins like this.

 

The Logic plug-ins, while fine, very usable, and IMHO the best included plug-ins with a Daw, noneheless do not inherently sound as good as these. "No way, no how.

 

Can they be made to sound exactly like Logic's plugs? If not, is your assertion not purely subjective?

 

Will a synth player sound even better in front of a Minimoog than a Virus?

 

(To be fair I haven't heard the UAD stuff - maybe I should try it out)

 

"Can they be made to sound exactly like Logic's plugs? If not, is your assertion not purely subjective?"

 

Of course. But if 50 of you heard them a/b my guess is 49 would agree with me.

 

"Will a synth player sound even better in front of a Minimoog than a Virus?"

 

Perhaps not with those but yes with a Casio.

 

"To be fair I haven't heard the UAD stuff - maybe I should try it out)"

 

if you do, keep your credit card handy:)

[Ashermusic]

And just like Darude suggested, after a while, stop buying new stuff and get to work with what you have. Or you'll spend most of your time buying and learning new plug-ins and researching, which can be exhilarating, but doesn't make you produce more or better music.

 

But yeah, once in a while, a new instrument can be a good source of inspiration. I remember at one point I started researching a good bass sampler instrument, and after a few days I slapped my forehead with my right hand, opened my wallet, took my credit card and ordered... a Bass guitar! Best $125 I've ever spent.

Haha, if anyone's ever listened to my first album they've heard (maybe even recognized) the inspirational power of JP8080 and NordLead2... Two or three presets of those machines more or less tweaked and mangled are the foundation of the sound of that album (and many of them still are in use, though best bits sampled to EXS24), and why? Because we freaking loved the new worlds that we heard in those new synths my producer friend had just bought to his studio.

 

There are very few things more inspiring than going thru well-made preset sounds of a brand new synth... But with the price-to-preset ratio we get these days with softsynths it's gotten so ridiculously overwhelming! When I get my current album project finished I've already planned I'll have synth-learning and preset-checking week (or a month!) with at least two or three synths that I've had for two years yet still barely scratched their surface...

 

Same goes with fx & processors: I have a PowerCore FireWire system that I've used very little outside Character, which is fantastic. I just am so used to certain Logic's plugin interfaces, you know, down to the colour and placing of knobs etc, that I feel confused if I try to do something quick with some of the PoCo plugs. You can tell me that a TC channel strip sounds better than Logic's and I believe you but for me at the moment the difference is minimal and so not worth the learning curve. The gadgets we have had say the last five years are on a level where pretty much no one can blame the equipment if the piece of art sucks, it's the dude in the mirror who's responsible. Trust me, I've been there, I am there...

 

Well this assumes we like the way your stuff sounds

[Darude]

Well this assumes we like the way your stuff sounds

Huh?

I think you took something wrong in my earlier post... I just meant that I certainly have seen the-guy-responsible-for-the-crappy-sounding-track in the mirror several times in the past and I still do with every other project...

Edited June 28, 2007 by darudevil

[Ashermusic]

Well this assumes we like the way your stuff sounds

Huh?

I think you took something wrong in my earlier post... I just meant that I certainly have seen the-guy-responsible-for-the-crappy-sounding-track in the mirror several times in the past and I still do with every other project...

 

Don't we all, don't we all

[simonphoenix]

Some of you seem to forget the bottom line I announced earlier when it comes to 3rd party plugins.

 

At the end the audience isn't even going to notice or even care what you used to achieve a particular mix. Even if you did A/B them. Sure the will probably notice a subtle tonal difference, but most can't even begin to speculate which one is even better.

 

I do believe in 3rd party plugins, because it also raises the bar for Apple and what people expect and demand from them in Logic. I also like to have a little choice, and there will most assuredly be tonal differences from one plug in to the next.

 

But don't lose sight of your resourcefulness.

 

Instead of looking a buying a different sounding compressor, you could always chain a Channel EQ along with a standard Compressor, just for an approximate effect. If you want more detail you can always add the tiniest amount of Overdrive, and some introduce some automation so some of the EQ/Compressor/Overdrive character kicks in the more things get dynamic.

 

And that is going to cost you nothing extra, and in the end you will have a Channel Strip Setting and associated techniques you can reuse in over & over again.

 

Some of the best things EVER were created just out of innovative use. And they are the ones that stand out more, not because somebody spent extra cash on 3rd party plugins.

 

So in the end, don't bury yourself with the notion that you need 3rd party plugins to create anything brilliant. Sure they help, but they are not the be-all and end-all.

 

Get innovative.

[Meezy]

 

So in the end, don't bury yourself with the notion that you need 3rd party plugins to create anything brilliant. Sure they help, but they are not the be-all and end-all.

 

Get innovative.

 

I agree except as David (I think) pointed out before, When you are a beginner like me, it's good to have a few third party plugin's that have different pre-sets so that I can learn good starting points for settings for different instruments. If I where to rely on just the Logic settings, my tracks would sound even more unprofessional.

Most of the songs on my myspace page are using WAVES plugins that we have at uni (WAPPA). If you where to compare the two tracks "Sunshowers" and "Still Having Fun" (link at the bottom), I bet you could guess which one uses the WAVES and not Logics even though the one I wrote with Logics plugins was done a semester after, I couldn't get it to sound as good.

I realize that this is because I'm still learning how to set my EQ's and compression. But for now, to sound slightly better and get an edge over my classmates (I want the one HD awarded per class) I rely on WAVES

 

http://myspace.com/shiftytranslation

[simonphoenix]

I didn't realise Logic's plugins were that tricky!?!?

 

Kind of second nature to me.

 

Maybe I'm the only oe who finds it super-easy to get an awesome sound out of it?!?!

[simonphoenix]

Heard all 3 of those tracks Meezy and I really dig the 3rd one, "Still Having Fun" though, I got no idea what you used Waves plugins on just by listening!!!

 

Sunshine sounds a bit "hotter"... LOL, Sorry I just realised, no pun intended, but it could have been mastered that way, the organ did bury the vocals a bit though.

 

And Still Having fun sounded like it could use a bit more of some mid ranges, like pumping up the bass a bit or the guitar, even throwing some laid back B3 tones or a Rhodes... but i liked that song the best. Maybe it could have been mastered a touch hotter too, just to inject a little more energy, but I wouldn't go over board with that.

[ultrameek]

This has been an excellent thread. I will not claim to be any great talent or even a professional but I have been in the music game for over twenty years now (inbetween kids and life in general) and I have noticed two major groups of Studiophiles: 1.Those Who Produce (people who make music)

2.Those Who Obtain

(people who obtain new gear and talk about making music)

 

You folks seemed to have addressed that quite well here. I would hope I fall into the first group (even if I wanted to "obtain" my funds prevent this from being a hazzard!)

 

anyhow, good thoughts here, good thread.

 

cheers!

m e e k

[Meezy]

Heard all 3 of those tracks Meezy and I really dig the 3rd one, "Still Having Fun" though, I got no idea what you used Waves plugins on just by listening!!!

 

 

Thanks for listening, it was "Still Having Fun" that used waves. I'm still learning about all how to set effects for the best results and my point was that it's a little harder for me to get a nice sound out of the Logic Plug-ins but when I get better I'm sure I wont need to cheat with waves

Sorry I wont hijack this thread any more, I'll post them in the Listening Booth forum. Thanks for your comments Simon.

[simonphoenix]

Meezy. if ever you guys are in Melbourne you should give me a holler... maybe we could organise a jam or collaboration or something. Just something low key.

[kingniels]

I'm following this thread for a while.. and like the screenshots, nice to see how others do..

 

Maybe more people can post screenshots? Would be great..

 

(i haven't any screenshots yet.. working for several years with ProTools LE and now switching to Logic because of the many limitations of PT LE.., so i'm learning a lot from threads like this )

[David Nahmani]

OK, here are a couple of screenshots where I went totally crazy editing a live multitrack drum recording. One picture spans the whole song and the other zooms in on a part.

[David Nahmani]

Couple of screenshots from the MIDI programming job I had for Yamaha (far from being commercial sessions.. but hey I made good money doing that).

 

Main Arrange screenshot shows my monitor audio channel as a floating environment window, replacing the MIDI channel strips that I don't use (all MIDI automation was entered in hyperdraw and cleaned up in event list), and also a little "Compare" button I made to quickly switch between the original audio song and my MIDI version of it.

 

Matrix screenshot shows some of the vibrato automation I wrote to make a cello more human sounding.

[dkgross]

cool

[Waterboy]

Those do look like some cool pics.

Did you get that "original" track from another source - or is that your work?

 

The reason that I ask is because it looks like there are little dynamics towards the end of that track. No offense meant - just curious