Tape Simulator Plug

[nikkik]

Oh how I could get into so much trouble with the snobbery side...I have been scolded, reprimanded, etc. I understand being a noobie, we all have been from birth. But ignorance thru laziness and a "gimme now!" philosophy? LOL! I have an easy button for that- it loosens a monkey with a mallet...guess what happens next...

 

Sorry, but I am (partially) in the Bill Gates club on this one: "People should have to have a license to use a computer..." If you dont put in the effort, you shouldn't expect results. And if you do not have any talent in the musical realm..well, that is purely subjective, isnt it? Be happy with what you have and get on with it. Assemble music, or write it. Paint-by-numbers, or choose your brushes, canvas and paints.

 

As far as "warming up" digital recordings...well, it can be as simple as, "I heard that digital is harsh and cold, and would like to get one of these 'warming' plug-ins...which do you guys suggest?" Or, one could do some serious education, and then try demos, and then post your personal experiences, and ask for others to share theirs. The latter is something I love, as it can often open doors, as one can not be expected to see every refraction

 

Anything but experiencing the live performance is distorted anyway...

[the sinner]

Obviously if there wasn't a market for this type of Plug In, there would be none to be found. It's frustrating to hear the same argument about how its the player not the gear over and over. I am enjoying the demo of the vintage warmer, especially on the mono setting, some nice presets also.

[AllyMusicGirl]

nikkik, not you love!

 

We gals have to stick together!

[instantpop]

I'm split in the camps on this one. At one point I was a total Logic noob and couldn't even figure out how to get the program to make any sound. I was given some friendly nudges in the right direction, but to be honest, most of my learning experience has been trial by fire and deciphering the manuals.

 

I really think that if you take the extra time to educate yourself on how to do something vs. having somebody just show you how to do it you're doing yourself a favor. But maybe that's just me. Sure, I love that there are compression presets, exciters, limiters, etc., etc. - but I want to know how they work. Not to sound corny, but knowledge is power. Easy buttons are found at Staples.

[nikkik]

Education before gender! Sorry...lol..

 

Ya know, it really is funny how the thread disintegrated. Easy to follow how, and pretty easy to come up with reasons why. It is also one of those *problems* of the internet and forum posting: the personal aspect, even in a larger classroom setting, is (nearly) completely lost...unless you have had personal interaction with those posting.

 

I have always said, Learn the Laws, so you can break the Rules.

 

The original queston was how to get your 2007 digital recordings to sound like they were recorded to 2" tape. IMO, and apparently others, you might get close with plug-ins and techniques. Another (valid) question is...why would you want to? Do you want to build a house made of nails and wood only to have it appear to be cement? Are you expecting that wood n nails house to withstand the same weathering as a cement one?

 

Even better question: could you expand on the "2" tape" sound you are after? What tape formula? Ampex? 2" 24 track? 2 track? 16? What type of desk? Or is it an assembly of various channels? What aspects of tape are you looking for? "Hiss"? Improperly degaussed? 15ips? 7.5ips? Are you loking for something that would best emulate slamming tape (which would kill transients horribly)? What model 2" machine? Some aspects of certain tape and machine types might be desireable, while others might not. Also, tape output is typically run thru a desk of some sort, and when the summing stages are taken into consideration, it will additionally distort (colour) the sound...just as EVERY stage of recording and playback will, which further afects the "colour" of the material you might be trying to better emulate, albeit with (primarily) digital tools. Just as a hammer is best suited to *pushing* a nail into an area of wood, but would not be best suited for doing the same with a screw, so are various plug-ins better suited for emulating certain aspects of an analogue chain, and the various models and applications one could come up with of said analogue gear.

 

Granted, some replies might have been a bit scathing, but such a broad, general question that speaks of a lack of understanding of analogue principles on the outset, it *could* be understandable that some would reply in the manner they did, especially when this question is among types of the hundreds of thousands that will appear every year on forums of this type. Every once in awhile, a post such as this will be viewed by someone with a very generous attitude. They will proceed to post a reply that explains certain things that would ask the original poster to consider, and then reply with a more detailed request, and hopefully, a genuine desire to learn a bit more about the tools they are looking for, and the foundations upon which they are built. Unfortunately, many times, the *generous* poster offering help is met with indifference, and this, sometimes, will reduce the number of those *generous* posters by one. I have been there....

 

So- to the original poster- what aspect of 2" tape are you looking to capture/emulate? Do you have a reference? Are you sure it is the "tape" itself, and not the techniques and/or equipment used?

 

As far as there being a market....lol...oh my...let me put it this way...politely..

There is a market for ANYTHING. I could sell turd sandwiches on ebay if I could set aside my conscience. Fart in a jar? Pet rock? Ghost in a jar? My ex-wife's wedding dress that I model in the pics, even tho it doesnt fit me well and here is my sardonic boo-hoo story? "I aint no hollaback girl"? Like I said- there is a market for ANYTHING...and EVERYTHING. Heck, people buy religion everyday, and then buy weapons to kill those who dont buy in. The world is a harsh place...maybe our recordings should reflect that, and simply leave the warming to Mr Gore?

 

(oh- and btw- yes, I am attempting to outdo Chandler Bing at being sarcastic as much as possible....)

[the sinner]

Original Poster here:

 

I work in the TV industry, not albums, my turn around is fast. I work primarily with Samples which I have spent time manipulating, assembling and researching in order for them to sound as real as possible. I overdub solo instruments and things especially hard to sample. Why would I want something like this? If my client decides to do a retro episode then I need to be able to simulate as closely as possible the sound they desire for the demos - show and tell.

 

Orchestrationally I know what that entails (the example for this thread was Mancini) , cup mutes, solo tone mutes, brushes, vibes, bells, organs, accordions, rips, falls, shakes etc... Since I do not have the luxury of time to do all this fancy recording stuff I was hoping to try a plug in to get me closer to this sound of the old recordings, - Mancini once again. I am just researching options at this point. To all who say you have to write music that sounds like that, I agree totally. I am not an expert in old recording technology and was looking for a plug to help simulate the tape sound, via EQ and compression and what not.

 

PS mancini's book is a must have for those interested in the topic of his works.

[nikkik]

Ahh- clarification helps alot!

 

OK...since we are talking classical (basically), was there a particular recording you were looking to target? A broader range of recording types? Tape is just the slightest consideration IMO, as classical recordings (along with jezz, etc) will typically call for the recordist(s) to opt for *purity*, or as close to as possible. Pristine, uncoloured...the truest representation of th eoriginal. Unfortunately, IMO, tape did not do this, and digital presents a better medium (IMO, and many others I know who do these types of recordings). The types of distortions that tape will impart are not typically desired.

 

HOWEVER! You are attempting (from your description) to recreate a "period piece," and as such, tho you are using digital equipment (primarily), you are looking to impose a bit of the "sound" of a recording made from such period of this genre. No?

 

If so, IMO, you have a multitude of tools at your disposal, all capable of contributing to an end result that would be a decent emulation. Run stems direct to analogue desk, to tape, and then either right back in, or print tot ape and then re-record to DAW...sort of like "re-amping," but in this case...re-taping! This would be the ideal manner IMO, as it would reproduce more accurately what you are after, were you able to obtain, setup, and use equipment suited to the task.

 

Shy of that, there are some cool tools out there....plus, as mentioned, techniques. Something like Izotopes "Vinyl" plug-in, used extremely sparingly, and mixed in at the lowest of levels and set properly, could add some of the dirt, grit and grime of mechanical components. Then, you could opt for something like PSP Vintage Warmer, and slap that on summing points, or simply on the main stereo stem/mix. Sonnox (previously Sony Oxford plugins) also has an excellent suite of tools for this, including the Inflator and Limiter. I would view the topic on Gearslutz.com in the Music Computers section, stickied at present, that has the creator of th eplug-ins, Paul Frindle, providing his personal insight on using those plug-ins, and how each operates/interacts.

 

Nomad Factory Blue Tubes are also supposed to be excellent. And there are others. I would suggest grabbing several, including the Sonnox stuff and Vintage Warmer, and trying each on the main stereo mix/Main Out, as the last plugin in that chain. Mix THRU it. Does it have a sound you feel fulfills your needs? If not, try them on summing points next. You have so many choices and combinations. Unfortunately, for your ears to be satisfied, it will simply require demo'ing each one until you find a winner. I truly feel the only thing people here could contribute would be various techniques/usages of these plug-ins (such as I outlined), and possibly some personal feedback on what each plugin sounds liek to them. However, I really do believe that unless you try the plug-ins yurself, and have replies from people using the same plugins on similar genres/types of material, comparing another's opinion would have no point of reference. If someone said, "Sony Inflator sounds great on my main out as the final plugin on good old rock, but for jazz, I find it 'clouds' things a bit much except at the lowest settings; therefor, for Jazz, I typical opt for using Vintage Warmer on a submix of the entire mix, and then combine that with a clean submix to provide a final, summed Main Out mix" and if you then tried both of those plug-ins, you would then have a *common* point of reference (what you hear with that plugin and similar material to what they heard). To take someone else's opinion without that point of reference...to not "understand their ears" a bit...would seem a bit useless to me..no?

 

Further, a general answer of, "Yeah, that Nomad Facory stuff sounds great, I love it on jazz music" says nothing useful IMO, except that it estblishes a possible point of reference should you later try Nomad Factory plugins on some of your own material. Even so, it would be a very broad reference, and still, not of much use (IMO). Why does this matter? Because any plug-in that claims to be an analogue warming, tape saturation, catch-all emulation, etc can probably do just that. In fact, as pointed out, plug-ins that are touted as being specifically for analogue emulation/warming are not the only ones capable of accomplishng that "sound."

 

If you were to serve up a specific recording on a specific medium, such as "Muppet Orchestra's Mozfart in D Minor for a Panda," performed by the Muppet Orchestra, captured on July 18, 1953, as remastered and listened to on DVD-A issued in 2006...well, obviously the point of reference for the type of sound you are after would be MUCH easier to solicit appropriate responses. If you wanted to emulate an older recording, only able to be listened to via turntable (no offical CD or DVD remaster/release), then the playback device would also require consideration I think, albeit a very slight amount of consideration.

 

Sorry, a very long answer to a broad, general question. And the bottom-line is: any one of the aforementioned plug-ins, or combination of, in conjunction with some (artistic) techniques in digital mixing, should be able to provide your desired result, without having to *resort to* analogue stemming/re-taping. Plus, someone might reveal a secret or two they have had success wth in their endeavors to accomplish the same as, or close to, what you are attempting to do. Good luck!

[velvet]

I do not understand why anyone would ever record on tape again after all the advancement in technology. To get rid of the tape hiss you use noise reduction ,which changes your natural tone, therefore tape isn't giving you the true sound. The digital realm is giving you a more accurate sound than before. I would recommend using some tube mic pre's which warms up the sound, has no hiss, and saturates to the fullest.

 

Simple answer: it sounds good.

You would be probably surprised, how much of today's rock/pop music is STILL recorded or/and mixed to tape.

Recording drums and bass to multitrack and than transfer to DAW - that is quite obvious thing.

You mentioned tape hiss and noise reduction... there is a known technique of recording vocals (from 70's) with dolby switched ON during recording and than turned OFF during mixdown. Some kind of emphasis, a compression relative to frequency is added to the track. I think that one might achieve similar effect for example with Logic's Exciter plugin, but I believe that many producers are still using tape for this kind of effect when they want it... they are just familiar with it.

 

I have to say, that I am glad, that after all the advancement in technology, recording/mixing to tape is still "alive"

[velvet]

nikkik, you made some excellent points!

[editbrain]

To the Original Poster -

 

 

I haven't read all of nikki's reply, but from what you posted it sounds as if you could utilize the Match EQ feature in logic.

 

if your client wants retro then you could do a match eq of a retro song. i.e. the beginning of C.H.I.P.S. or something equivalent.

 

it seems that you might be a little lost when it comes to using digital effect to get what you need. it is all there you just have to use it.

[JPZ]

>>Simple answer: it sounds good.

You would be probably surprised, how much of today's rock/pop music is STILL recorded or/and mixed to tape.

Recording drums and bass to multitrack and than transfer to DAW - that is quite obvious thing. <<

 

I have 2 2" machines collecting dust if you want em hehehehe. I used to buy into that whole capture bass and drums on the 2" and DAW simultaneously and then transfer over to the DAW as well but in A/B tests people preffered the straight to DAW stuff more often than not. I kid you not. Also locking loops to analog drums after the fact is a pain because setting the grid to a drifting analog maching was time comsuming even though it was locked to smpte.

 

As far as tape/tube emulation plugins go, I've tried for years to like them but they just don't seem to do much for me so what's the point? There are so many cooler ways to mess with stuff and the tape emulator plugs are kind of like unimpressive. Massey tapehead is ok though and an old one called magneto was kind of cool in a dirty L1 kind of way

[marcel72]

I have 2 2" machines collecting dust if you want em

 

What kind?

 

Seriously.

[marcel72]

Sinner:

 

Is the possibility of a cheaper 1/4" machine and a couple spools stretching things too far? Would probably not cost you much more than software (maybe a lot less) and you could bounce your samples through it, straight back off the repro heads, at will. Do this to any audio a handful of times (nice and hot, or cool and noisy) and it sounds very effected and cool.

 

It's not a mixdown deck, so quality is less of an issue...

[Salted]

I use airwindows channel, and recommend it to you.

 

Of course it doesn't substitute good mixing, but beside that.

 

I use it mainly during mastering to beef up the mix. I would not recommend to over-use it, since you do have an advantages with digital that I wouldn't like to lose.

[teamworkmammal]

it kinda bugs me when someone asks a 'how do i' and gets preached at for 3 pages.

 

has anyone said izotopes "vinyl" yet? ive found you can get some cool tape like sounds with it, and its free.

[dkgross]

I'm also a really big fan of the DUY stuff..amazing, and WELL worth the $$$

 

http://www.duy.com/

 

http://www.duy.net/duystore/product.asp?numPageStartPosition=1&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&strSearchCriteria=&PT_ID=88&P_ID=190&btnProduct=More+details

[danthebirdman]

Great comments nikik.

 

Obviously there is a great deal of subjectivity here. Personally, I'm all for knowing the fundamentals, starting with a good sound, and using your ears.

 

Lots of plug ins have been mentioned here. I've personally had some good experiences with Izotope Vinyl-used sparingly as well as Izotope Trash- used very sparingly and after a lot of tweaking, to get some of what I think the original post was asking for.

 

To my ears there isn't a lack of warmth or punch inherent in the digital realm. As far as the gear goes, I beIieve that the front end is super important. Find the mics and pres that you love the sound of and that fit your needs, just like engineers have always done, regardless of what medium they record to. For me, those are better investments to make than emaulation plug ins, although I use them as well when they are needed. Or a hardware EQ. And then there is the performance question. Music that is created with only samples manipulated entirely with plug ins can sound exactly like what it is and I think that is what many people have a reaction to.

 

Happy recording.

-

[hellleutel]

it kinda bugs me when someone asks a 'how do i' and gets preached at for 3 pages.

hehe absolutely. unbelievable especially in that case if you think how many great engineers do use tape and other various strange equipment for coloring and saturating their signals.

While I do not consider myself a "great engineer", my plugins include PSP Mixsaturator, VintageWarmer, Duy DaDValve; I love Logic's distortionII as well - you must try this with the "growl" setting!

 

has anyone said izotopes "vinyl" yet? ive found you can get some cool tape like sounds with it, and its free.

 

I thought it only narrows bandwidth and adds noise and dirt?

 

ul

[marcel72]

To my ears there isn't a lack of warmth or punch inherent in the digital realm. As far as the gear goes, I beIieve that the front end is super important.

 

Welcome, danthebirdman.

 

I totally agree.

 

I think converter quality plays a huge role in this, too. When you go hear a good band live in a good venue, you hear all that cool stuff - good distortion, punchy transients, clear, strong tones - it's all there long before any hint of analogue tape. I think poorly designed AD conversion destroys a lot of this for a lot of people, and as you stack up a bunch of 'poor' recordings into a mix, things just get worse. Trying to recover this (or actually simulate it) is a bit of an art, I guess, but I'd way rather concentrate on good recordings if given a choice.

 

I remember reading an interview with Alex Newport in Tape Op magazine where he described hating digital because of the poor quality of the mix projects he received that had been recorded in this format. At one point, he had to re-track something for a PT session he was mixing, and realized that the results he could get from digital recording were basically the same as he got from tape. The other stuff was just... Poorly engineered.

 

I think good summing plays a role in this, too... I can't usually tell if something has been recorded to tape or to digital necessarily, but there are times when I can definitely hear when things have been mixed and/or mastered ITB.

 

I think...