Mastering/ Getting the best sound possible b4 mastering?

[adam2007]

Hey everybody, i need some help...

 

I have been working on a number of projects in which i have completed but i am just in the process of touching the 'mixes' up the best they can be b4 i send the instrumentals out to various artists.

 

If there is anyone that could help here that would be great to make the wisest decisions possible.

I am running logic pro 7.2 on a mac pro.

 

I have mixed everything in proportions that i am happy with. I DO have a lot of the tracks inside the mix clipping to +3 on average some of the time. I have not put any compression or plugin on the MASTER tracks of all these projects.

 

What should i do? Is it okay to have clipping on the tracks inside the mix?

I know for a fact all the Master tracks are clipping possibly quite high. I left it all open and 'dry' so that i could get the best sound possible b4 plugins. But now i am ready to send out to ppl for everyone to listen. And i need the best mixes possible, most clarity possible, and closest 'sound' quality to professional released tracks on the market.

 

With all to conisder? B4 Professional Mastering/mixing in the high end market.

Whats ur opinions, recommendations and tips?

thanks a lot

[teamworkmammal]

your goal is to make everything sit together, like a jigsaw. give each sound its own space to dominate. if you have too many sounds dominating a specific frequency range, it will be muddy. for instance the bass, kick, and guitar all share some common frequencies so you have to play with them so they dont get in the way of each other. if you boost vocals at 1k, drop 1k a little bit out of other instruments that dont really need 1k to sound good. then try to give everything a common sense of 'space'. maybe use a common reverb and/or delay on a little bit of all of your tracks, so it sounds like theyre coming from the same place.

 

pretty impossible to convey, but hope that maybe sorta helps a little.

[adam2007]

Yes that helps a bit.. Thanks a lot

i need to hear more about the output master track and try to touch each thing i mentioned in my post plz... thanks very much tho

appreciate it

any more suggests from anyone?

plz help

thanks

[adam2007]

IGNORE THIS REPLY

.(internet screwup doublepost...)

[teamworkmammal]

you shouldnt have any tracks clipping. try to keep each frack from exceeding -3 db at any point as a good rule of thumb. its not the end of the world if some are at +3, just try to avoid it. also, if your going to have the songs mastered professionally, dont put anything on the master bus- just make sure that -3 db applies there too, so drop the slider accordingly. trust the pros with that one.

 

im a little confused about your expectations....are you trying to get something to record execs?? before mastering?

[adam2007]

Hip hop instrumentals being sent out to artists for them to listen. If they want the tracks, we go into the studio and lay down the vocals.

 

So the master track at -3 eh?

how come?

i was reading a post on this forum about a week or 2 ago and someone was sayin that they were looking at professionaly released tracks and they were clipping all the time.

And not to worry cuz 32 bit floating point..

i dont know..

anyone?

 

why master track at -3 tho b4 mastering, curious

loll

[teamworkmammal]

you keep the levels low for premastering. that way, limiters dont overly squash and the audio has room to breath. and -3 is by no means a magic number, but it tends to work. mastered tracks however clip all the time. ever listened to Californication by the RHCP? that pissed off a lot of people because you can actually hear distortion. people want their song to be the loudest possible so it grabs attention on radio or in a club. sometimes engineers even sacrifice some distortion.

 

from what it sounds like, you want to attempt to master it yourself so people can hear it, then have a pro master it later? if so, the best i can tell you without writing a book here, or sending you off to the library to read thousands of pages, is to use logics preset master sets. they suck, but for non-commercial, show to clients and buddies, it should be alright.

[adam2007]

Mainly i want a good sounding mix. If the volume is not there compared to commercial masters its okay. Cuz thall be done later.. I want clarity for now, i know that they can beef it up in the mastering studio.

Clarity and clean sound is what i want to show, if they have to turn the volume up a bit its cool, im sure they know whats goin on and that theres no vocals and its not mastered

btw my attempts to master in the past have been unsuccessful, i know there using the best compressors and techniques and monitors and rooms to master commercial s#!+. Theres no point in me even trying.. for now till i work my way up the ladder

what ya think

thanks dude!

[davidrice]

A fictional dialog:

 

Guy with a track he wants to sell to a rapper: "Hey, i'm gonna email you a track I've got. You'll love it.

 

Rapper: "Hey, I got the track. It's got no balls. There's no bottom. I'm not feeling it - plus I had to turn it up to 11 to even hear it! It doesn't sound anything like what I hear on the radio"

 

Guy with a track he wants to sell to a rapper: "But I didn't want it to clip, and I thought I should print it with no compression or mastering, but you know, if you wind up buying the track and laying your vocals down, then I'm going to print a mix with no levels above -3 db, and my mastering engineer has this really killer limiter that will make it louder and he can always add a little bottom end if you want later - but I think you should be able to get the idea of what it will eventually sound like once...."

 

If your object is to "sell" these tracks to hip hop artists, I disagree with all the previous advice in this thread. I suggest hyping up the tracks to make them as loud and exciting as possible. And I'm not just picking on hip-hop clients. When I'm trying to sell a client on a track (for a commercial or TV cue package, etc.) I present the most "mastered" sound I can produce. Only tech-heads and mastering engineers care about your clinical, no-compression mix. A guy wanting some beats for his raps, or an ad exec wanting a track for his truck ad both want to hear something that sounds like the radio. Even if it's over-processed I know that I'll eventually be printing and delivering un-hyped stems to the post house for mixing, or printing a stereo mix of a finished song with minimal processing for delivery to a mastering engineer. No one cares about what it COULD sound like (once this or that happens) - they want to hear it sounding like the real deal from the start or it's not gonna sell.

[yoink]

It's all about headroom.

 

Remember that you get 6db per bit. So even if you have a track that peaks around -6 you still have a 23 bit recording, and 30 db more headroom (a fair amount less under real world conditions) than a comparable 16 bit file.

 

There has been a lot of talk lately of converter reconstruction inter-sample peaks which actually cause clipping even if your tracks are mixed at -3db.

 

Lower levels=better is nothing new though. In the analog days of yore if you pushed inputs (or outputs) too hard they didn't just give sweet overdriven sounds, they got crispy and wore out over time.

 

They whole thing got a little messed up with 16 bit audio and the loudness wars, but hopefully some sense is returning to the art.

[davidrice]

I re-read my last post and realize I may have come off sounding a little obnoxious. When you get to the stage of delivering pro mixes to a mastering engineer, definitely observe everyone else's advice. Before then, consider mine.

[nickweston]

I always add a bit of compression for my "artist" mixes, to tighten things up.

 

A good quickie is to add the stock Logic compressor, and simply lower the threshold to it's lowest setting, that usually is a good starting point. It's a suprisingly good-sounding compressor!

[tre_hollywood]

I re-read my last post and realize I may have come off sounding a little obnoxious. When you get to the stage of delivering pro mixes to a mastering engineer, definitely observe everyone else's advice. Before then, consider mine.

 

Actually you didn't sound obnoxious at all. In fact it was the best 'real world' advice given thus far.

[velvet]

Hip hop instrumentals being sent out to artists for them to listen. If they want the tracks, we go into the studio and lay down the vocals.

 

So the master track at -3 eh?

how come?

i was reading a post on this forum about a week or 2 ago and someone was sayin that they were looking at professionaly released tracks and they were clipping all the time.

And not to worry cuz 32 bit floating point..

i dont know..

anyone?

 

why master track at -3 tho b4 mastering, curious

loll

 

My suggestion:

 

Keep everything low, low, low.

Even lower

 

I agree that it doesn't have to matter when track is clipping here and there occasionally in Logic - but why to take that risk? Read Paul Frindle's excellent answers.

 

If you record, stay low (-8db to -18 db is really fine in 24bit world).

Leave some headroom for plugins - they need it often more than we can imagine to get the best of them.

 

Keep the main Bus or Output lower than -3 db (peaks ofcourse). Even -6 is better for Mastering engeneer. Bounce this mix for them.

 

Than insert gain plugin, compressor, multiband comp if you need one (you shouldn't if your mix is well ballanced) , EQ (if needed) and a Limiter and get the RMS gain up. Bounce this for client.

 

PS- Sonnox Limiter is the way to go

 

A lot have been said/written about difference between 48 fixed point mixing engine (ProTools) and 32 bit floating (incl. Logic)

[adam2007]

Wow, i havent been on the forum in a couple of days.. been really busy. And i am happy to come back with all the opinions and advice from everyone. Its great to hear. Thanks very much. Obnoxious guy was funny btw, and believe it or not from person to person, is very true. LOL. Good one. hah

 

I have to tell the honest truth. In my situation, I am quite happy with my mixes. However i am getting different results from car to car. Especially, car with subwoofer, and car without subwoofer. I have found that me mixing on my yamaha hs80m with subwoofer package, (subwoofer gain a little higher than presetted). I am still mixing too much bass when i listen to a car WITH a subwoofer. In a car WITHOUT a subwoofer, the bass sounds higher sometimes compared to pro mixes, maybe distorts from track to track.( my car no subwoofer is s#!+.) But my mixes AND pro mixes sound good in my car.

 

As for clarity, ive noticed that it may be best to make sure the output in logic is not clipping, for the most part since ive left everything fairly dry, and gotten my mixes to sound very close to professional. I still would have to say that there is some distortion sometimes. Is this due to clipping on the output bus? or clipping on all the tracks?

 

I guess to sum things up.

 

How much clipping is okay on each individual track? whats the highest db each track should read?

 

On the output bus, how much clipping is okay on the output bus, what should it read b4 adding comp/limiter?

 

What logic comp or limiter should i put on the output to have a pretty good mastered track to send out? Should i even put one at all? anything else?

 

Thanks very much

-adam

[VSOP]

Hey adam,

 

This is something I can really help you with, it is an area of expertise. I work as head engineer for a big hip hop producer in the midwest (one with good bass, not kanye) and Ive been around most of the guys in Chicago that have made anything happen in the last 5 to 10 yrs or so. I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like to point out here that you will mix again after the vocals get put to the tracks, and Ive never heard of anyone going to profession mastering for their beat CD. Well at least anyone making it happen.

 

I DO NOT think this will help you chance of landing a placement with maybe 98% or rappers out there. I would recommend clipping the crap outta everything and making sure the Kick Sare/Clap/Snap and Bass are LOUD AS GOD in the ruffs and then just straight clip the mixes until your at like, -6 RMS on the the Level Meter.

 

Having you tracks sound MIXED wont HELP the process, having them be bass light (Even tho it is a more correct sounding mix) compared to the last DISTORTED CLIPPED BASS HAVY BEAT CD that they were just listing to, you s#!+ will sound weak and that WILL hurt. It doesnt take much to make an MC say "Skip onto the next track" sometime the first 5 seconds is all you get.. better WANG!

 

I do know that as an engineer myself, as well as a producer and Beat-maker Im constantly asking myself "Am I trying TOO HARD at the stage of whatever production Im involved in?" I always try to remind myself that the sound of the track is 90% the production done, and 10% the mix and engineering. something

 

There are so many different places that cats listen to beat CDS nowadays its way too hard to make something sound nice and get your point across in a Beat CD. I mean if you have a really cool sub bass part that really makes the track happen than you need to mix it so heavy that on a huge system it is wangin outta control, but on an iPod or ona these little iPod radios you can still hear the part.

 

Hip-hop is a GRIMY dirty art-form and you should revel in it. Dont be afraid to let the dirt thru until you get to the FINAL MIX-DOWN. Then its up to you.. Listen to soma the other succesfull producers beats CD in you are and you my be suprised 2 see what your up against. Maybe after you get as hot a Pharell, you can get away with crappy bass light sounds and.. oh wait, his s#!+ flopped...

 

Just kidding, (But not about him flopping)

 

IM not trying to come off as preachy, but remember this type of music was begun with just samplers being reprinted to CASSETTE.

 

MH

[adam2007]

Thats really great to hear VSOP.. I have been comparing my mixes to pro tracks. Always. Thats how i have improved soo much since i started. Now, after a lot of hard work, money, and persistance i finally feel like im in a good spot with my mixes. Theyre punchy, loud, and quite clear(each instrument could be a little clearer) but its pretty good.

 

So your saying the whole song gets mixed again with the vocals on top... meaning, each track(instrument) is mixed with each track(vocals) all together for a final mixdown?

 

if thats the case that is great to hear. Since i am young and new to the game i wouldnt know this. But i was hoping this was the case and i kinda figured this would happen. Great to hear.

 

Thanks a lot for the advice...

[Rolo Tomasi]

compared to the last DISTORTED CLIPPED BASS HAVY BEAT CD that they were just listing to, you s#!+ will sound weak and that WILL hurt. It doesnt take much to make an MC say "Skip onto the next track" sometime the first 5 seconds is all you get.. better WANG!

 

Unless of course the song just happens to be a good song at any dB level. MC's can still recognize those I suspect?

[VSOP]

Thats really great to hear VSOP.. I have been comparing my mixes to pro tracks. Always. Thats how i have improved soo much since i started. Now, after a lot of hard work, money, and persistance i finally feel like im in a good spot with my mixes. Theyre punchy, loud, and quite clear(each instrument could be a little clearer) but its pretty good.

 

So your saying the whole song gets mixed again with the vocals on top... meaning, each track(instrument) is mixed with each track(vocals) all together for a final mixdown?

 

if thats the case that is great to hear. Since i am young and new to the game i wouldnt know this. But i was hoping this was the case and i kinda figured this would happen. Great to hear.

 

Thanks a lot for the advice...

 

Yea... Let me make a caviot (SP?) here tho. If you are submitting to a label, yes the will remix with the full multitrack and your straight.. that is unless they decide to just flat out rip you off/jack you beat. Then they will not mix it.. obivisiouly. But im sure you knew that.

 

If you selling to a local artist, ask them thier plan. When im doing local mixtape stuff alot of cats just run with the 2track. Its all about the budget. Id probably have to say tho even if they were looking at 2 tracking the whole ting, ME PERSONALLY AS AN ENGINEER, would rather have an unmastered 2 track were working with cauze its hard enuff mashing vocals into a 2 track.

 

Ask the artist if you worried... but if they have any sort of deal inplace you definitly get a seperate mix session.

[VSOP]

Unless of course the song just happens to be a good song at any dB level. MC's can still recognize those I suspect?

 

Well I dunno, since were talking about BEATS not SONGS. If were talkin about submitting song demos for a major artist to buy a compleated SONG then you had better mix and master cauze that demo needs to sound perfict... Unless im wrong he was talkin about shoppin beats... the songs havent been written yet.

 

Also on a funny sidenote, its not untl MCs reach a pretty high level b4 they stop thinking ALL of thier songs are hits...

 

MH

[adam2007]

Seen!..

Im gona get at you soon VSOP with some beats once my website is up. Couple of weeks should be up and runnin.

Thanks a lot for the advice and expertise

 

And just to confirm and misunderstandings. Yes VSOP i was talking about just shopping the beats. No vocals.

 

BGTD wrote:

 

Unless of course the song just happens to be a good song at any dB level. MC's can still recognize those I suspect?

 

 

Well I dunno, since were talking about BEATS not SONGS. If were talkin about submitting song demos for a major artist to buy a compleated SONG then you had better mix and master cauze that demo needs to sound perfict... Unless im wrong he was talkin about shoppin beats... the songs havent been written yet.

 

Ya BGTD mcs definately recognize good songs at any db i think too. However, better mixes are always preferred. But some beats ive heard the mixes are low db but the beat is fuckin sickkk.. Song is still sick. lol.. low db.. but u know.. food for thought

 

Thanks guys..

[VSOP]

FaSho!

 

MH

[nickweston]

hmmmm.....

 

I think people imagine "mastering" as a separate process, whereas a lot of us build it into our tracks.

 

The advice "not to master" seems shortsighted to me, as "mastering" is only a process to make the music sound BETTER.

 

When wouldn't that be good? And what Hip-Hip producer can tell me whether my demo has been "mastered" or not?

 

It's either good or it's just not. Learn how to get your sh&*t as tight and as representative to the genre as you can.

MOST of the time that means a little compression and limiting to get the track loud and rude!

[VSOP]

hmmmm.....

The advice "not to master" seems shortsighted to me, as "mastering" is only a process to make the music sound BETTER. When wouldn't that be good?

 

For the record.. I wasnt saying DONT Master. I was saying SELF master you beat CD, even if just by clipping and over hyping. Also.. and maybe this is ME.. but, mastering is NOT a process that makes the music sound BETTER. A good mastering engineer can make a sub par mix shine, a great mastering engineer knows when it sounds great already and simply makes it louder. Making a blanket statement that it will be BETTER is misleading.

 

Im not trying to pick at what you said Nick.. definitly not trying to sound aggressive either.

 

And what Hip-Hip producer can tell me whether my demo has been "mastered" or not?

!

 

That seems like an ignorant statment to me. Not only can I think of many many many that CAN, I can think of a few that woldent take kindley to implying that they couldent.

[nickweston]

funny that you read my remarks as a slight against hip hop producers, when it That was a comment on the genre and the way it's recorded, not on the talent of hip-hop producers!

 

my point is that almost EVERYBODY puts some compression or limiting on their tracks and mixes, that's all. Drums are crushed, the guitars smashed, vocals mangled, ESPECIALLY in Hip Hop. A lot of the demos I get from writers are horribly smashed.

 

That was my point. It's hard to tell whether it was done during RECORDING or MASTERING. That's all.

 

so anyway, you can chizzill.

[VSOP]

funny that you read my remarks as a slight against hip hop producers, when it That was a comment on the genre and the way it's recorded, not on the talent of hip-hop producers!

 

lol sory.. my bad mang. Sometime I feel im constantley on the defensive on the forums cauze thier so much hate tward the hip hop game.

 

My bad.

 

Yea I agree.. Distort Mangle Compress get it there by any means.

 

MH

[adam2007]

Actually, believe it or not, i like my mixes dry better!

LOL

as of now.

 

I think all i need is a bit of limiting just to keep the master track at 0db and im good. Barely any eq or compression on all the tracks, the drums maybe could use some comp. Thats about it tho. Sometimes overly processing things could really f*%@ things up, and im sick of doing that.. maybe i need some more experience with the eqing since i tend to think things sound good on my monitors, bring it to my car, and i dont like it. Yet all the mixes i left dry, sound the best. And sometimes are sounding just as good, if not better than pro cds that were just released by major artists. I think i get a lot further with panning, then eqing everything, and if i eq it has to be very mild, because everytime i do too much eq, everything ends up having to be too much eqd, and then the whole mix is just not full. No eq or very little, things are full! round, and punchy. Any arguments to that? would love to discuss..

Its crazy..

i dont know.. whatever works for the individual i guess.

thanks guys

PEACE

[nickweston]

yo VSOP, it's all good.

 

take care of Chi Town, my old home...

 

oh, and Adam2007, the only thing I would say is the fact that your stuff doesn't sound as good in your car as it does in your studio COULD partly be because of a lack of compression on your mix, as the car is surrounded by ambient noise, which could eat up the details of your mix that sounded so great in a controlled environment.

Try dusting that mix with just a bit of compression and see if that helps...

 

otherwise, experiment, experiment, experiment! One good thing to do is to make three or four different mixes (don't forget to document what you do to each one) and see which one translates the best.

 

good luck with your music and your mixes

[adam2007]

Yes.. i do agree with the little bit of compression, especially the fact that when ur driving there is other noise to intefere. Excellent point there , hope the bit of compression will help. I have just been staying away from eq and compression since i have had bad experiences with trying to overdrive a mix and in the end just killing it. Meanwhile these new mixes with no plugins, instead, ive been making sure of picking the right instruments and volume and pan, are the best mixes ive ever done. Just a dust of compression should do the trick

 

Thanks everyone for your help..

Peace