Score Editor: Line Break Behavior

Here's a breakdown of some line break behavior that might be handy to know about... In the following, "track" refers to an individual track's staff display as seen when a single MIDI track is opened in the score editor. By "part" I'm referring to an official "part" as extracted from a Score Set (accessed by OPT+holding on the current Score Set and then selecting a track).

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There are apparently 4 places where line breaks can be inserted and act independently to influence the display of the score (namely, bars per line). The first three listed below are all useful, but the last one is, I think, to be avoided:

1. Score Set

Inserting a line break on any staff (track) in a Score Set will break the system as expected. You can enter line breaks on any track/staff in your Score Set (e.g., a conductor's score) to shape its appearance (number of bars per line). And each Score Set can have its own set of line breaks. One example of the usefulness of this would be to duplicate an existing Score Set to experiment with alternate layouts for your conductor's score.

2. Individual Track (part)

While displaying any Score Set, double-click on an individual staff (track). You can now enter line breaks on that staff which are totally independent of any line breaks you entered while viewing the conductor's score; any of these staff-specific line breaks will not subsequently affect the display of your conductor's score! In other words, you can change the number of bars per line of any individual staff (track) independently of how the score itself breaks lines. This seems to be a feasible way of creating parts without using the "official" parts extraction function (accessed with OPT+click/hold on the Score Set name. This is detailed below).

3. Individual Part (from Score Set) Top Level

Let's assume that you've previously entered line breaks in the score or perhaps on an individual track. You now want to use Logic's built-in part extraction feature to extract a part from a Score Set by OPT+holding on the Score Set name, and selecting a part from the resulting menu. Here's the behavior: that part will be displayed without any line breaks (virgin). You can now establish your own set of line breaks for that particular part; these breaks will not affect the appearance of your conductor's score (Score Set) nor will they affect the appearance of any individual track's display, per #2 above.

By "top level" I mean this: if you are viewing the conductor's score (Score Set) and then OPT+hold on the Score Set name to select a part, you will note that the " arrow level indicator* " (to the left of the link icon) is grayed out. This indicates that you are viewing the part, as extracted, as you'd expect. This is the "top level" of the part. Let's say you enter a bunch of line breaks to shape the appearance of this part. That's all fine and good. But if you were to now double-click on the part's staff (or double click on the background), the following happens...

4. Individual Part (from Score Set) One Level Down

...the " arrow level indicator* " becomes active, and shows you yet another display of that staff -- "down a level". The line layout display will have no bearing on any previously entered line breaks that you may have entered (at least none that I can discern). So this seems to be yet another level of display for which I cannot, at this time, see the need for.

CONCLUSIONS

• If using Logic's part extraction feature, ensure that you are looking at the "top level" of whatever part you've extracted to avoid using the "mystery display" described in #4 above.

• It would seem that there are two methods you can use for creating parts from a score: using the "official" part-extraction-from-the-Score-Set feature, or, 2-clicking on any staff (when viewing the entire score set) and entering your line breaks right on the track/staff.

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I'd like to encourage any/all feedback on the behavior I reported above. It would also be interesting to see how all of this figures in when using multi-bar rests...

* = probably not the correct nomenclature

great info. you should make this a Sticky in the TIps and Tricks area so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

-

Thanks!

I'd like to get some feedback on this before making any of this info "sticky-official" tho...

Everything works per your "recipe" on my G5.

I'm so old school that I've always prepared a separate score set for each part and never used the part extraction feature for manipulating and printing parts. Perhaps to be answered here, or moved to a new thread - what technique do you use? And, with editing parts in parts extraction mode as per above, are the parts edits independent of the score and other parts? They seem to be here.

Thanks for checking this out Doug, and for confirming the behavior.

I've been very old-skool in my approach to extracting parts also... I actually save each part as a separate song (no assets). That way I can see the parts by name. And I adopted this long-winded approach because in previous incarnations of Logic, the part-extraction feature made no sense to me. I'm not sure it actually worked at all. A few failed attempts and I readily gave up. But now that I've taken a closer look at the L8 behavior I'm going to try the "official" part extraction routine on my next project and see how it goes.

And, with editing parts in parts extraction mode as per above, are the parts edits independent of the score and other parts? They seem to be here.

Do you mean edits other than adding line breaks?

Do you mean edits other than adding line breaks?

Actually, I just meant line breaks. But I guess I'm curious about anything else you'd come up with.

I too will have to try the part extraction on my next project.

BTW, I tested on multiple rests - set up a four bar rest. Looked the same in all incarnations, but it was a quick test and and didn't try any usual line breaks.

Thanks for taking the time , Ski !

You just beat Logic User Manual's seven lines about the subject.

Worked as you described over here.

The "#2 Individual track" it will only work for layout editing if you have all the track data in one single region in the arrange window. If you have it splited it will only show one segment of your part.

I've been very old-skool in my approach to extracting parts also... I actually save each part as a separate song (no assets).

Does that means that when you're doing some orchestral work you save 40 songs for the same music ?

I've always use OPT+holding for part extraction. It works very well for me. Why it doesn't make sense to you?

Thanks for taking the time , Ski !

You just beat Logic User Manual's seven lines about the subject.

Worked as you described over here.

Cool, thanks for confirming!!

Does that means that when you're doing some orchestral work you save 40 songs for the same music ?

I should clarify... when working in L7 I couldn't get the part-extraction thing to work for me. This was mainly because there was (or so I thought) only one set of line breaks available for all score sets. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's the assumption I was under. So that was a major consideration for saving individual songs for each part. In other words, each part was formatted with line breaks to specifically make it look good.

But now with Logic 8, it's clear that line breaks are separate for each part (using either method), so I can foresee this being the way I work in the future: one score set, with part extraction done using the OPT+Click on Score Set function but within limits... This is because there are a variety of reasons why saving individual parts as separate songs is necessary:

1. Global Score Prefs: Constant and Proportional Spacing

- These are parameters I'll tweak on a part-by-part basis to make them look good. The problem is that these prefs are global. The only way to apply specific values to a part is to save the part as a separate song

2. Page Size

- My conductor's score will be printed on 11x17, parts on 8.5x11. Since the paper size/scaling settings (Print Dialog/Page Setup) are saved with each song, when I recall the conductor's score or parts, I automatically see the correct display. So in my case, when I try to extract parts from a conductor's score, everything you see will be based on the 11x17 paper size. So at the very least I need to save one version of the conductor's score (set to 11x17), and another version for parts (8.5 x 11, from which various parts can be extracted when the contant/proportional spacings work for several parts).

3. Staff Style Size Parameter

- Due to a lovely, long-standing bug in Logic, I no longer adjust the size of my score/parts using the Score Set's Scale% parameter. This is because setting this to anything other than 100% will cause graphic markup (cresc/dim, text, etc.) to shift when a song is re-opened. So to make parts look right, I'll adjust the Size parameter within the Staff Style (usually taking it down from 8 to 7). That fits more on the page and makes everything look a bit better and "tighter".

4. Staff Style Spacing

- The spacing I use to fit a part on a Conductor's score will likely be much tighter compared to how I want that spacing to be for a part. So here's another reason to at least save a separate file for parts -- you can go in and adjust the spacing above/below the staff of any given part, a procedure which would definitely mess up the look of your conductor's score.

In conclusion, while I plan to make use of Logic 8's Score Set line break features, I can foresee still needing to save at least some parts as separate song files.

like ski, i do not use the quick part extraction for reasons similar to the ones he has outlined. however, i don't think there is any need to make a song per part. you can achieve a similar thing by making an instrument set per part.

it's as simple as selecting a region of the instrument and hitting 'create instrument set from selection' KC. if you have the instrument names set up correctly in arrange/environment then it will even name the instrument set correctly.

then you are free to do any formatting you want independent of one another (within reason) and its very quick to access each part - no slower in fact than quick part extraction.

the other thing of course is you can go back and correct - i am always doing that. i always print pdfs before committing to paper. i invariably need to correct a part i have made when i notice something in another part. i don't have ski's eye for detail. come to think of it, i doubt anyone has....

Sure Sky.

I'll also save a second song for the Conductor Score exactly for the same reasons you point it out (Page Size & Staff Style Spacing).

I also reduce my Staff Style Size Parameter to 7, I even work the individual parts with that same value. But even then I have to decrease Score Set's Scale to 75% so the conductor score fit's in the A3 paper size. I remembered that you suggested while ago using a custom paper size to avoid graphical markup to float around, but I did some tests and I found out that, at least here, things (texts, tremolos, etc) stay in the same place when I change Score Set's Scale.

For individual parts OPT+Click method works ok for me. Making an instrument set gives you the ability to Score Set scale and edit short names, but thats something I usually won't need while dealing with individual parts.

Constant and Proportional Spacing is something that I don't tweak often. But that's probably because , as stevenson said, i don't have ski's eye for detail.

like ski, i do not use the quick part extraction for reasons similar to the ones he has outlined. however, i don't think there is any need to make a song per part. you can achieve a similar thing by making an instrument set per part.

 

it's as simple as selecting a region of the instrument and hitting 'create instrument set from selection' KC. if you have the instrument names set up correctly in arrange/environment then it will even name the instrument set correctly.

 

then you are free to do any formatting you want independent of one another (within reason) and its very quick to access each part - no slower in fact than quick part extraction.

 

the other thing of course is you can go back and correct - i am always doing that. i always print pdfs before committing to paper. i invariably need to correct a part i have made when i notice something in another part. i don't have ski's eye for detail. come to think of it, i doubt anyone has....

That's now called a Score Set, Rohan:)

Here's one lil' detail I couldn't help but notice...

www.jayasher.com

Wouldya look what the cat dragged in!

TC,

In light of what you wrote, I'm going to have to experiment again with the scale setting. One thing's for sure -- I find that it's difficult to place symbols with accuracy when the scale is set to less than 100%. Do you find this as well? For example, try placing a tremolo symbol on a note stem when the scale is at, say, 85% or 50%. Does the symbol get placed where you clicked? Or does it move up or down from where you clicked?

But my biggest gripe (as you know) has been that symbols would move upon reopening a file when scale is less than 100%. That's the behavior I'll have another look at. Fingers are crossed that this no longer happens on my system running L8.

8)

-=sKi=-

the other thing of course is you can go back and correct - i am always doing that. i always print pdfs before committing to paper. i invariably need to correct a part i have made when i notice something in another part. i don't have ski's eye for detail. come to think of it, i doubt anyone has....

 

 

That's now called a Score Set, Rohan:)

...or jay's when it comes to it.......

I find that it's difficult to place symbols with accuracy when the scale is set to less than 100%. Do you find this as well? For example, try placing a tremolo symbol on a note stem when the scale is at, say, 85% or 50%. Does the symbol get placed where you clicked? Or does it move up or down from where you clicked?

-=sKi=-

You're right. Pretty hard to work with reduced scale. But if you place the tremolo sign with a 100% and then change it the tremolo stays at the same place.

Tremolo and slurs edit I always do it by section. I create score sets (thx Jay) for strings, brass, woodwinds, etc with scale at 100%.

i have never had - or don't recall ever having the problem with markings moving around as ski describes it and i routinely use scales other than 100%. here are some possible reasons:

- they have moved and i didn't notice, or i noticed but didn't realize that was the cause

- i usually insert my symbols at high zoom. the reason for this is because i received advice (actually it might be in the manual) that logic has excellent WYSIWYG but only at high resolutions. this is because monitors have much lower resolution than printers.

- so possibly inserting my symbols at high zooms which is probably good practice anyway, either reduces the effect of the problem/bug ski has noticed, is how to enter it reliably without the bug, or a combination of both.

- i am really crap and happy to let my scores reflect that.

on reflection the most likely scenario is the last....

This is such a great thread that I want to bump it back into the limelight - perhaps one of you guys can answer the question about the ORANGE PADLOCKS:

•why do they appear at random on staves, usually in a Score Set but not on all staves?

• how do they relate to memorising the line breaks etc

cheers

M S

Line Break behaviour - the spectre of an old thread back to haunt:

I have been experimenting with the bookend symbol in an attempt to try and LOCK DOWN the line break choices.

Forgive my ignorance on this still but ... I understand the orange padlocks indicate that the line has reached its MAX number of bars, ie depending on the Score Preferences/Settings etc

But those book end symbols - added them in a rush with the pencil tool at the end of each line for a whole 3 page tenor sax part and then discovered they were dotted at random around all the other charts of a 5 horn arrangement?

Any guesses as to why this happened? I thought they were supposed to be specific to that Score Set/Instrument Set - ie that part only

Also they dont seem to be editable events in the Event List..

MS,

Email me your file and I'll have a look. Once I see what's going on it will be easier for me to explain what might have happened.

I understand the orange padlocks indicate that the line has reached its MAX number of bars,

That's not correct. What they mean is you have changed the number of measures in the bar from the original layout. The locks are worthless as far as keeping it locked, as you know. As far as the line and page breaks, I've found the breaks work, the "anti" breaks don't.

delete any previously-entered breaks but preserve an indication of where you had them placed originally

That's more than I figured out with them....... I just kind of walked away in disgust and disappointment.

Hi MS...

Got your file, thanks! Always a pleasure to hear your music. You're just one amazing, soulful musician!

Question for you... when doing charts within a single arrangement do you regularly change the number of bars-per-line setting in the Score Prefs?

3. Staff Style Size Parameter

- Due to a lovely, long-standing bug in Logic, I no longer adjust the size of my score/parts using the Score Set's Scale% parameter. This is because setting this to anything other than 100% will cause graphic markup (cresc/dim, text, etc.) to shift when a song is re-opened.

That must be the same bug I'm (still) getting right now - although it happens to me on "print" as well.

I set the score part to 81% and most times I "print" (to PDF) just before it renders it skips/jumps and re-arranges my line endings (ie ruining quite a bit).

I thought it must be a bug, because it actually even fails to print the last page of the song - because it's "readjustment" spilled my careful, painstaking effort to fit onto 8 pages, onto 9.

I think I've now spent nearly 50% of my entire time on the score, rearranging bars with the layout tool back to where it was after Logic "poofed" it into something else.

I just opened it now, and it's poofed it again. That'll be another 20min to get it back to 8 pages again...

I'll just have to save the PDF with 8 pages and regard it as sacred. Any further copies requires the 20min dance.

BTW it's a piano accompaniment score, so having 8 and not 9 pages is essential to avoid the situation of having to turn the last page to read the last 2 bars.

 

3. Staff Style Size Parameter

- Due to a lovely, long-standing bug in Logic, I no longer adjust the size of my score/parts using the Score Set's Scale% parameter. This is because setting this to anything other than 100% will cause graphic markup (cresc/dim, text, etc.) to shift when a song is re-opened.

I also felt, in the past, that various actions (like changing the 100% value to eg 105%)in Logic could make cresc/dim, text, etc jump to unexpected places. I later realised that when I place an object without paying close attention to not only where it appears to be located, but to it's accurate bar/beat position, I'm creating trouble for myself. And this gets even worse if I use the layout tool to move eg a ppp slightly left or right.

The very useful remedy for preventing such situations in Logic 9 are the so called Guides.

(For those not familiar with the guides: When enabled, they will shown graphically, a dotted line pointing to the actual positions of such events, which in surprisingly many cases happen to be something different from what I thought they were.)

I'm not saying that this explains your mysterious and unexpected shifts, Ski, but I'm pretty sure that some of these will not happen in Logic 9 if you enable the Guides from the View menu. This is because when changing from 100% to 105%, one bar may jump down to the next line, and if the objects we discuss aren't places absolutely accurate, they may jump down a line as well.

+1 on never using the anti-breaks. I can't fathom what purpose they serve, other than to delete any previously-entered breaks but preserve an indication of where you had them placed originally

Check my last post here:

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