Pitch Detecting to tune Kick drums?

I have no problem detecting the pitch of my percussion samples when I put them in Ultrabeat and use the Tuner insert, but when I apply the Tuner insert to an audio file, or even a sample played thru EXS24, the Tuner doesn't detect pitch (of say, a kick). Is this normal?

Many (most) percussion sounds do not have a pitch. Can you hear a pitch?

Many (most) percussion sounds do not have a pitch. Can you hear a pitch?

 

Well the Tuner applied on Ultrabeat says my kick is a "G", and from tutorials I've been watching many producers make sure their kicks are in the same key as the bassline, melody, etc. Little confused as to what you're getting at--if I can tune the kick up and down, then technically ya there's a pitch I would assume. I was just hoping for the Tuner to work on top of other Apple plug-ins besides Ultrabeat, or simply on an audio sample...

Just because you can pitch something up or down doesn't mean it has a recognizable pitch - by a human, or by an electronic tuner. White noise, for example, does not have a pitch (by definition), and yet you can sample it in the EXS24 and play it up and down your keyboard, hearing it pitched down or up.

 

Yes, the tuner works, both "on top of other plug-ins" as you say, and on audio samples, even on live audio (that's how I tune guitars and basses, for example). But the noisier the sound, the harder it will be for a human (therefore for a tuner) to recognize a pitch.

 

Pitch is not an absolute thing. Some sounds have a pitch that's easier to detect than other sounds. For example vocal pitch correction plug-ins fare much better on nicely sung lines than on screamed throaty vocals - even though us humans can still detect a pitch, at least in the context of a song.

I see, fair enough. Could you think of a reason why the Tuner works in Ultrabeat but not when applied to EXS24 or the same sound played as an audio file? I've tried lowering the "noise" (i.e. volume?) to no avail...

Could you think of a reason why the Tuner works in Ultrabeat but not when applied to EXS24 or the same sound played as an audio file? I've tried lowering the "noise" (i.e. volume?) to no avail...

 

No, I can't think of a reason. If it's the same audio signal, the tuner should react in the same manner. I've used the tuner on the EXS24 to tune samples more than once... never had a problem.

 

What sound is it? Is it a factory Logic sound? Is it a sample you can share with us? That way we could check it out, see what's going on... If you cannot share it I totally understand of course.

Sure, but I'm having trouble attaching the audio sample, how do you recommend I go about doing it?

Compress it first: in the Finder, control-click it and choose "Compress....". Then attach the resulting .zip file.

Compress it first: in the Finder, control-click it and choose "Compress....". Then attach the resulting .zip file.

 

Oh cool. Well here it is then:

Avicii Kick (Levels) copy.aif.zip

Tried it in Ultrabeat, with the "Drag and drop samples" preset, the tuner did not detect a pitch. I hear a percussive sound and a pitched sound on top. The pitched sound sounds like an F that drops slightly in pitch over the course of the sample.

Ok I took that directly from a track, I knew it sounded like something else was added. Yet even more basic sample kicks are not being detected: I just took a somewhat dry sounding kick from a Vengeance CD and am having the same result--Ultrabeat picks up the pitch, but not EXS24 or as an audio file. See attached please.

VEH3 Kicks 002 copy.wav.zip

When you say "Ultrabeat picks up the pitch", you mean that when you play the sample through Ultrabeat, the tuner can detect the pitch?

 

If that's what you mean, how do you use Ultrabeat to playback the sample? What are your steps? What Ultrabeat setting do you start with?

Yes, that's correct. All I do is open UB, right click on a note and select "Init" -> "kick". Then I switch the lower right section from "phase osc" to "sample", then I load the sample and enter MIDI notes for it. Tuner picks it up no problem.

When you init a sound to "Kick", you have the Osc1 at the top playing a synthetized kick. Even if you turn on Osc 2 and add a sample, you're layering your sample with that synthesized kick. Maybe that synthesized kick is what the tuner is picking up on. I just tried to init a voice to kick and the tuner picks it up as a sharp "A0", although to be honest I don't hear a pitch.

 

On that preset, the sample also goes through the filter section, then through EQs, etc... so you're not just playing your naked sample anymore.

 

I tried following your procedure, and after adding the sample, the tuner still picks up the pitch of the synthesized kick produced by Osc1, a sharp A0. If you turn off Osc1, the tuner no longer detects a pitch.

 

To truly get your naked sample played by Ultrabeat, use the "Drag and Drop Sample" preset.

I see, wow I need to learn Ultrabeat some more, haha. So what do producers mean by "tuning kicks" to the rest of the song if said kicks don't have pitches, per se? Your result matches mine: I got no pitch picked up when I used the raw sample in "drag and drop".

Some kicks do have a pitch. More or less, depending on the kick. You can tune an acoustic pitch to have more or less of a pitch as well. Some electronic kicks have a clearly perceptible pitch. In those cases, it can be an interesting effect (although not a hard and fast rule) to tune the kick to the song.

 

I would give you an example but I'm in a hotel room and don't have my headphones with me.

Gotcha. So is only option for finding the right tuned kick just trial and error of tuning a kick up and down--judging what sounds best simply by ear?

Personally that's how I do it, yes. I've learned to trust my ears much more than a tuner for that kind of stuff. I don't think I've ever seen a producer pull out a tuner to tune a kick drum. You just tune it by ear. Sometimes you tune it to the root, sometimes you tune it to the 5th. Sometimes you don't tune it. You can use tools (like tuners) to help you figure out what's going on, but IMO you should make your final call with your ears.

I feel like that's easy to say for musicians. Not that I'm tone deaf, but detecting kick pitches seems like deciphering Japanese. But alas, that's my only option. Actually, I just thought of the program Melodyne--ah yes! Thanks for all the advice once again, David.

If the Logic tuner can't detect a pitch, chances are Melodyne won't detect it either. I don't think you need to be an experimented musician to detect the pitch of a kick that has a detectable pitch. I think you might just be working with non-pitched kicks, which would explain your frustration.

If the Logic tuner can't detect a pitch, chances are Melodyne won't detect it either. I don't think you need to be an experimented musician to detect the pitch of a kick that has a detectable pitch. I think you might just be working with non-pitched kicks, which would explain your frustration.

 

I'm sure you are correct, but if I transpose the kick +1 or +2--THEN I get a pitch readout. Is this still accurate?

 

Also, when I transpose up in UB, I hear the kick obviously in higher pitches. But when I drag the transpose in EXS24 either way (+ or -), I don't hear any sound at all. ?

 

EDIT: I guess I can just tune +12 or +24, but that's weird. Also, "TuneIt!" AU seems to be on point when transposing. http://tuneit.free.fr/Site/Home.html

Audio Finder has a Pitch Analyzing tool...here's what it says about these samples you've posted...sounds about right to me. I should say I usually rely on my ears for this kind of stuff, too.

 

The fist pic is the VEH3 Kick and the second the Avicii Kick.

As David mentioned, kick signals can have an initial tuning, but typically fall in pitch almost immediately. This happens as the front skin is usually tuned a semitone or so lower than the beater side skin. Synthesized kicks are usually set up with this kind of pitch envelope too. So it's nearly impossible for a tuning detector to read the frequency if it's changing this quickly.

 

If you really, really need to know the "initial" tuning, open the kick in the sample editor. Change the view to show milliseconds. Select a range that covers one wavelength of the lowest and loudest frequency. Note the duration of the range in mSec's. Open OSX's Calculator app. enter that number, press the Inverse key. That's the frequency. Do the same for subsequent wavelengths and you'll get the pitch drop.

 

Your kick sample starts at 142Hz and drops in pitch to 59Hz over about 100mSec's. That's over an octave drop from C# +42 cents, down to A# +22 cents in a tenth of a second.

I'm sure you are correct, but if I transpose the kick +1 or +2--THEN I get a pitch readout. Is this still accurate?

 

Hard to tell. Sometimes tuners "attempt" to give you a reading, but it's not accurate. The noisier the sound the more the tuner will have a problem detecting the pitch.

Many (most) percussion sounds do not have a pitch. Can you hear a pitch?

 

Professional dance music producers would tell you otherwise - in fact it's essential to get all your percussion tuned and working in relation to the track.

 

And all good drummers should tune their kit to the key of the song. Lots of drummers are very bad at doing this

 

I think all percussion has some sort of pitch, albeit some sounds are extremely short and more transient than anything else.

This is how I tune (if I tune) my kicks:

 

I listen to the kick soloed (and maybe hi hat & clap to not get bored to death in 10 seconds... ) and I start humming whatever minor chord the kick overall sound sounds like... (minor just because it works for me, dunno why... maybe because 85% of my kinda music is in minor keys)

 

---> thump-thump-thump... C - D# - G --- umm, wait, no, how about A - C - E, yeah, Am it is...

 

So if the track key is a reasonable semitone or two away, say Bm, then I'll try and tune the kick accordingly up or down and see if it still sounds good as a kick, not too thin when tuned up, and not too growly or losing tightness tuned down. And like David said above, it could sound good tuned to 5th as well. And then there's fine-tuning by ear, because of course it can be +/-50 cent flat or sharp, too. If the song key/root is very far from the perceived kick tuning, then I might change the kick, or just decide it sounds fine without matching it to anything. Case by case, listening, trying different things, there's no shortcuts, really.

 

Some times tuning doesn't matter, as kicks usually have short duration and they don't contribute much to the perceived pitch of the track (but the bass, pads and leads, vocals, the melodic contend do) or don't often clash with anything, unless they're of a classic 808 type, or otherwise have a long tail of actual kick, or maybe because of reverb.

 

A little of topic, but...

I'm just working on a remix with some of the original material being traditional rock drum kit, and I want to use the snare, but it has this nasty looong pitched ring, but the actual body of the snare sounds great. I've selected a couple of good snare samples, cut their tail really abruptly short to get rid of the ring that doesn't fit the key of the track, but you don't hear it during the actual drum hit. Then I've got another similar snare from a sample CD which has a long tail, but no real note to it, just the noise/rattle, and mixing those two together gets me around the problem without losing the original sound I obsessively wanted to keep in the mix.

Audio Finder has a Pitch Analyzing tool...here's what it says about these samples you've posted...sounds about right to me. I should say I usually rely on my ears for this kind of stuff, too.

 

The fist pic is the VEH3 Kick and the second the Avicii Kick.

 

Audio Finder is AWESOME, thanks jordito!!!

Having worked on more dance tracks than I care to remember sometimes ( ) I can report that none of the producers I've worked for EVER used a tuner on a kick. Either it had the right vibe or it didn't. Occasionally we'd change the tuning of a kick up or down slightly to change its character, or to tighten it up with the bass line, but there was never a need to find out what note it was. Besides, when a kick is tuned to a specific and noticeable pitch, it can easily become THE bass in the song. If that's the effect that you're going for then yes, you'd need to tune it to the right key for the song. (And yes, it can be a cool effect, but it can also get very monotonous). FWIW...

And all good drummers should tune their kit to the key of the song. Lots of drummers are very bad at doing this

 

I've never seen a good drummer play live then. They never tune their kit between songs, how lame!

And all good drummers should tune their kit to the key of the song. Lots of drummers are very bad at doing this

 

I've never seen a good drummer play live then. They never tune their kit between songs, how lame!

So true!

 

I guess you're f@cked if the song ever modulates too!