Adaptive Limiter Gain

Hey guys i've had this problem for a while and there are plenty of ways around it but I just wanted to know if anyone else has experienced it. Bascially whenever I use the Adaptive limiter Gain knob, if I start to crank it more than 7.5 or 8 db it starts lowering the output ceiling. Is that a bug or is there a setting I'm missing? I'm not sure but i've just always wondered lol

No, cranking the Gain knob should not move the output ceiling knob, nor should it change the output ceiling value. Can you show a screenshot?

It doesn't do anything with the ceiling knob itself. It just changes the output ceiling. As you can see in the screenshot the output ceiling is set to -0.2 and it's peaking at -1.0. It only happens after you go past 8db on the gain knob though.

 

P.S. My screenshot is just to display the problem. I was NOT actually limiting my stuff that hard haha

 

Yes, that may be so, but these are überextreme settings, 10 dB extra input gain and 12 dB extra loudness gain? I think the ceiling is lowered because with those big numbers, the margin will be proportionally big, to catch out possible intersample peaks.

On a sidenote: I can not imagine this sounding anywhere near acceptable. Just because a setting can be made, doesn't mean it is useful. Or even used.

You could always put a second AdL after the first, Input Scale that 1.0 dB, crank the Gain to whatever, see what happens then? Don't be surprised if the sound thus produced summons Beëlzebub though....

 

 

 

On a sidenote: I can not imagine this sounding anywhere near acceptable. Just because a setting can be made, doesn't mean it is useful. Or even used.

 

My screenshot is just to display the problem. I was NOT actually limiting my stuff that hard haha

Are you trying to make me look bad? Huh Yeah, you! You, you... Judas! You Sleaze! You ehh... reverend!

 

 

OK, I apparently read over that, but it BEGS the question: if one does not use this setting, why does one call the behaviour at this (unused) setting "a problem"? Hm? Well? Why? WHY???

If something that I don't use doesn't work ("- as I think it should"), I don't call it a problem. 8)

 

I think zakkleifeste was using an extreme example to illustrate a point. 0.1dB difference is still a problem IMO.

Well it's not really useful in the setting I have it at right now, but I have run into problems where I'm doing a rock track that needs to be pretty loud and I've needed to go higher than just 8db of loudness gain. I just have to resort to putting a gain plugin before the limiter to get all the gain I need. It usually clips the limiter input meter, but I don't hear any audible clipping so I just go with it. Maybe that's the wrong way to do it though?

Yeah, I've noticed that I can have some (small) overs at the input stage and I can't really hear it.... which may be because the plug is presumably working in 32 bit floating point. But there's no free lunch here - one way or the other, you're going to hit the limiter with gain from the input or gain from the Gain knob so why add any potential distortion at the plug's input? Just use the Gain parameter; that should be enough if you've done a good job on the mix.

 

If you crank the input all the way and leave the Gain at zero and the output at max (zero dB) you'll hear the distortion that that creates. Pretty ugly!

Just use the Gain parameter; that should be enough if you've done a good job on the mix.

 

Hmmmm idk. You think if it's a commercial rock track that would still be enough?

Well that gets into the question of mastering which is a whole topic on it's own. It might not be enough if all you're using is the AdLimiter. Mastering involves various sound sculpting strategies applied to the 2-mix (Eqing, adjusting image width, compression, mid-side strategies, parallel compression, "color" plugs and limiting) with the limiter usually being the last part of all that. If you want to get into the dark arts of mastering to create louder mixes, there's lots on this site and elsewhere.

 

There's also a few things that can be done at the mixing stage to increase loudness and density; again, that's another big topic right there, with more EQ and compression strategies, side-chain compression and more.

Yeah I've read just about every mastering article I could find on the good ol' interwebs

It doesn't do anything with the ceiling knob itself. It just changes the output ceiling. As you can see in the screenshot the output ceiling is set to -0.2 and it's peaking at -1.0. It only happens after you go past 8db on the gain knob though.

Yes, I've also noticed that with extreme levels and gain settings, you'll see the peak level of the signal go down. Keep in mind all those "levels" (for example the ceiling level in the Ad Limiter) may be using different integration & return times, which would explain why they don't end up showing the same value in different places especially with extremely clipped signals which have a HUGE energy/peak ratio:

 

THAT is an impressive Input over... Oh, and I think the adjective "Adaptive" is not for nothing - that in fact means that the behaviour is non-linear.