Real room monitor simulation for headphones?

I'm in a situation at the moment where I have to mix with my headphones. I'm happy with the sound quality of my Sennheiser HD650s, but I feel that I get a little bit "off" mixes every once in a while due to the ear-isolation that headphone mixing brings to the picture. Obviously I A/B-compare with other tracks and listen in the car and club systems and I come back to the final mix and tweak things to correct any levels that I don't hear "correct" on the headphones (I'm not too worried about the stereo image itself), but I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with hardware, or actually preferably a plugin, that would simulate mixing in a real room?

112dB's Redline Monitor. I haven't used this but it might work for you. If you get this or demo it, could you share your experience here?

Well, I downloaded the demo, which is fully functioning for 60 days. The permanent license costs $69. I can't compare with my studio Genelec system (but I can set the plug to the 60° angle and 1,5m distance my speakers are), but I can definitely understand now why my mixes have sounded narrow at times (which for club use is not disastrous, but for home listening of course makes a difference, and of course can mess up the level relations in the mix). Clicking bypass on and off is almost like switching from stereo to mono! The headphones make the sound like 50% wider than it actually is. I think I'll try my next couple of mixes with the plug and if it translates to better mix I think the $ def worth paying. I'll come back later to let you know how it goes.

I also just downloaded the demo of this plugin last week. It sounds somewhat promising, but I'm still skeptical about it, since I've NEVER gotten good results mixing on headphones.

 

Also, this is the kind of situation where the placebo effect runs rampant. Even those of us with the best ears cannot fully trust them without a blind test. Therefore...

 

I'm going to do a little experiment. What I'm going to do is:

 

1. Take a fairly simple (8 tracks) song that I made a couple years ago.

2. Delete all plugins, zero all pans/faders, save.

3. Make 3-4 quick mixes of it, with some variations, on headphones with Redline Monitor.

4. Make 3-4 quick mixes of it, with some variations, on headphones without the plugin.

5. Bounce all, shuffle the tracks to random order, burn to audio CD without looking at which is which.

6. Listen to the mixes on monitors, in the car, etc. and note the quality & balance of each mix.

7. Look up which track was which, and see if there is any pattern.

 

This will probably take a week or two. My prediction at this point is that the plugin will help somewhat, but that we won't want to throw away those nearfields just yet.

 

Anyone else want to give this a try? It would be very interesting to hear the results, and I'm sure the author of Redline Monitor would like to know how it goes, too.

 

Matt

Very cool, I'm interested in hearing your results! I can't do anything like that myself right now, I'll just try and get a couple of works-in-progress to sound as good as possible.

 

Trust me, I'm not going to throw away my actual speakers and my studio for the headphones, I'm just not interested in coughing up the serious $ it would take to build a soundproof room to where I live at the moment.

 

If I find this plugin (or similar) works, I'll be very happy though, because then I can worry less about the times I'm not near my studio, and it should be great also for those quick checks on the laptop on the road or if I'm just too lazy to drag my bum to the studio and boot everything up for a two minute check.

 

A (possibly lame) little tip: Remember to bypass the plugin when you bounce! It's only supposed to be used for monitoring, and while I know it's logical, it still confused me a bit and I had to think it over for a second. And at the moment they don't have that clearly stated in the manual either.

I'm going to check this thing out too. Very interesting.

A (possibly lame) little tip: Remember to bypass the plugin when you bounce! It's only supposed to be used for monitoring, and while I know it's logical, it still confused me a bit and I had to think it over for a second. And at the moment they don't have that clearly stated in the manual either.

 

+1. No, +∞. This is the most important part of using a plugin like this!

I'm going to do a little experiment.

 

This will probably take a week or two. My prediction at this point is that the plugin will help somewhat, but that we won't want to throw away those nearfields just yet.

 

Anyone else want to give this a try? It would be very interesting to hear the results, and I'm sure the author of Redline Monitor would like to know how it goes, too.

 

I'd be more than interested to hear the outcome of your experiment, so please do post back here with your findings. FWIW a couple of users already reported doing a multi-track mix on headphones with Redline Monitor, and found that the end result needed just a few minor tweaks when evaluated on nearfields afterwards. (If anyone is interested I can post a pointer to an overview of recent discussions.) But I don't think anyone has taken it to the scientific blind-test level that you propose yet.

 

And I wouldn't get rid of my nearfields with or without Redline Monitor. No matter how good it may be it is intended as a tool when, for whatever reason--because of sound levels, bad sounding rooms, lack of portability, etc. etc.--you can't work on monitors. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest it is an equivalent replacement for monitors. Not yet, anyway.

 

Oh and good point about the manual not mentioning to bypass the plugin during the final mixdown. When you've spent as much time with a plugin as I have with RM such things become trivial and it's easy to forget that it may not be as clear for others. I'll add some notes on this in the next manual revision. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

Take care,

 

-- dj!

Thanks for posting here, dj. I'm very interested to try out the plug so I can at least get some decent sounding rough mixes when I need to be on the go. This seems like just the ticket. Can't wait to check it out. Also anxious to hear the results of Matt's Coke/Pepsi blind taste test.

Hey DJ!, it's nice to see software developers taking an active interest in how they're products are being used.

 

I also like how you're honest about how effective Redline Monitor is

Well, I messed around with it a little bit this weekend. Nothing to the extent of what Matt is going to do with his experiment, but just some quick A/B testing to hear exactly what it does. I've gotta say that I'm impressed and will most likely be dropping the $69 for this thing this month.

 

It really is amazing to hear how artificial the stereo separation is in a set of cans when you've got the ability to switch back and forth here. I always knew it was there, but never as extreme as RedLine Monitor makes apparent.

 

As dj! said, there's no way this thing should replace your nearfield monitors, but used as a tool when situations warrant it, anybody who ever needs to mix on the go (or even writing on the go) should have this at their disposal. It really cleans things up.

Well, here goes. These are 6 very quick mixes of a song sketch I did about 3 years ago. They are 96KHz AAC files, to fit within the attachment size limit.

 

I gave myself about 20-25 minutes to produce each version. I also took a different approach with every mix, experimenting with different guitar tones, reverbs, and effects - this was intended to create slightly different material to balance for each mix, and so I could explore the way the plugin + headphones influenced my instincts.

 

3 of these were mixed with Redline Monitor and headphones (and then bounced without RM, as required) and 3 were done without the plugin with headphones alone. The headphones used were Sony MDR-7506s.

 

I tried to keep the subjective loudness consistent, but apparently made a mistake somewhere, so I had iTunes' Sound Check balance them out. This seemed to put them all in the same ballpark.

 

Also, I blindly randomized the names & numbers of these, so I don't know which is which yet. Feel free to make comments (be sure you refer to track numbers), but I won't be reading this thread again for a day or two, until I have listened to all the mixes on a couple different systems and taken notes.

 

When commenting, please do NOT say whether you think a given mix was done with or without the plugin. Instead, comment on how elements sit in the mix, stereo spread, dynamic relationships, reverb choice, and other elements of overall balance.

 

I'm not expecting any mix to be particularly impressive, but in the headphones, each one sounded like a reasonable 20-minute-mix at the time.

 

Edit: Deleted attachments. Sorry; I'm not proud of these & don't want them up anymore.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Matt Mayfield

Will definitely be checking these out. Notice you're from St. Paul, Matt. Me, too! Just a bit east of you in the 'burbs!

General comments:

 

All these mixes turned out way too dark and low-midrangey. I didn't care for the sound of them at all; good thing I'm willing to make a fool of myself for the sake of audio engineering. I didn't compare my mixes to anything while making them, so this problem is not entirely surprising.

 

None of the mixes have the vocal sitting really properly. But then, I'm not always able to achieve that even with good monitors, so that's not surprising either. Some mixes got closer than others, though.

 

Changing the guitar tones was not a good idea. I tried a bunch of things just for the heck of it, and some tones sounded absolutely awful, throwing off the balance for the rest of the mix. Lesson learned.

 

Individual listening:

 

I shuffled the tracks on each listening so I didn't know which was which from one monitoring setup to another, until after listening to and making notes for all six. Then I collated the notes per track. Sometimes they contradict each other; as you can see, once again I'm willing to make a fool of myself for the sake of audio engineering. Here they are:

 

Mix 1

On eMac internal speakers: Too much low mids. Balance is in the ballpark but EQ is off and center elements are too hot.

Headphones sitting on desk (not wearing them): Lead vox, lead guitar too hot. Other elements pretty much OK between each other

Tannoy System 1200s: Not bad. Vocal balance in the ballpark. Still too dark. Lead guitar too dark but reasonably balanced. Drums a bit low. A bit dry? Bass too hot & not bright enough

NS-10Ms: Too much bass, lead vox, drums are low. Very muddy mids

 

Mix 2

On eMac internal speakers: not bright enough overall; too muddy, low mids. Yech. Vox stick out a bit, esp. backup. Too dry

Headphones sitting on desk (not wearing them): Lead guitar & vox WAY too hot. Not enough rhythm gtr. Drums OK relative to guitar

Tannoy System 1200s: Lead vocal doesn't sit - sounds isolated from the mix. Rhythm guitars too low. Lead vox too hot. Harmony vox OK relative to lead but too hot overall. Needs more drums. Bass sits reasonably well.

NS-10Ms: Dry? Too much vox in general. Other instruments balanced OK relative to each other. Lead guitar slightly too hot.

 

Mix 3

On eMac internal speakers: Also too muddy but also very bassy. Not enough drums. BGD vox are really buried. OMG yuck on the lead guitar tone. Bass is really dark but prominent.

Headphones sitting on desk (not wearing them): Lead guitar & vox ridiculously hot - worst one, probably. Back vox are lost almost completely.

Tannoy System 1200s: Center elements way too hot compared to sides. Lead vox, lead guitar, bass too hot. A bit too wet? Bass too low?

NS-10Ms: Rather wet. Way too much lead vox, backing vox ok. Bass seems OK balanced leaning toward too hot. Not enough drums. Too much lead guitar.

 

Mix 4

On eMac internal speakers: OK. Brighter than others but still too muddy. One of my favorites. Back vox are too muffled though. Very spread out. Guitar tones work well, bass well balanced.

Headphones sitting on desk (not wearing them): Like the rhythm guitar tone. Lead guitar & vox still too hot but less so. Needs more drums. Back vox somewhat buried.

Tannoy System 1200s: Like the rhythm tones. Bass ok; maybe a bit hot? not too bad. One of my favorites. Quite wet... back vox too hot? Leads fitting better than other mixes. Could be a touch more rhythm guitar?

NS-10Ms: Sounds better. A good one. Lead vox & guitar closer to balanced.

 

Mix 5

On eMac internal speakers: OMG yech re: guitar tones. Drums sound OK though. Balance-wise this one is meh. Not enough rhythm guitar. Lead should be less scooped & a touch hotter.

Headphones sitting on desk (not wearing them): Lead guitar and especially lead vox WAY too hot. Rhythm guitar almost gone. Drums ok between those

Tannoy System 1200s: Yech. The worst. Too much bass. All vox stick out, lead guitar too. Hard to describe. My least favorite. Not enough lead guitar solo?

NS-10Ms: Yech. Terrible - hard to say exactly how

 

Mix 6

On eMac internal speakers: Tone is pretty good. Balance is OK too. I like this one. Back vox balance good! Lead balance OK.

Headphones sitting on desk (not wearing them): Very wet (vox esp.) Lead vox, guitar too hot.

Tannoy System 1200s: Fairly well balanced. Needs less vox? Back vox should be brighter but lower. OK solo balance. Bass OK or maybe even a bit low. One of my favorites.

NS-10Ms: Lead vox a bit too hot but close. Needs maybe 3-5dB more drums? Guitar solo close to balanced but still too hot. One of my favorites.

Anyone else care to comment before I post which mixes were done with Redline Monitor, and which were done with plain headphones?

Mixes 1, 3, and 5 were done without Redline Monitor. Mixes 2, 4, and 6 were done with it.

 

Under the circumstances of 20 minutes to mix, no reference material, and relatively unfamiliar headphones, the best two mixes out of 6 were done with Redline Monitor. The worst two mixes were done without it.

 

More experimenting is warranted, but this suggests to me that Redline Monitor is helpful in making balance judgments more accurate using headphones.

If anyone is interested (which would surprise me, since I seem to be the only one left in this thread) here is the "real" mix of the song.

 

This was originally an exercise in speed songwriting & mixing. Bonus points if you can name the band after whom I modeled the song, guitar tones, and mix.

You Want It Too.m4a.zip

I'm still here, I'm still here!

 

In fact I've been a bit busy, was just about to check out the 6 mixes when you already posted the key. Have to say I'm honestly impressed (not to mention grateful) with the effort you put into this, and perhaps even more with your ability to rough mix an entire song in 20 minutes flat--I would probably still be tweaking the kick compression.

 

And of course really happy to hear that Redline Monitor proved your skepticism wrong--up to a point at least. Then again I think you need to get used to the RM sound much like a new pair of monitors, so I would suspect that after a while the difference become more marked.

 

Going to check your mixes now!

 

Take care,

 

-- dj!

Have to say I'm honestly impressed (not to mention grateful) with the effort you put into this, and perhaps even more with your ability to rough mix an entire song in 20 minutes flat--I would probably still be tweaking the kick compression.

 

Well, wait until you hear the so-called "mixes." There goes my credibility on the forum!

Matt,

 

big props for doing the test, seems there's something to this thing, although it kinda pisses me off... My mixes of late sound rather narrow now when I listen to them thru the plugin, grrrhh. The good thing is that in a club system the narrowness might be more a positive than a negative, as long as the cancellation is not an issue.

 

I've been working with the plugin on now for several sessions and I've gotten used to it a bit, to a point that when I bypass it, the wideness freaks me out, and the "fake" reverb makes me grab the wet control right away until I remember "it's the headphones..."

 

It bothers me that I get to go to my own studio to compare not until mid May, so I only have the angle and distance to adjust to approx how I have my sweet spot setup there. I think my center level is still off a little, or it's a little weird because there's a big difference when I move a sound around in the stereo image, panning something to the side makes it a lot quieter, and I already have the center 1,5dBs down. I also think that some synth sounds with "natural" wideness or further artificial widening do something weird from time to time, there's minor phasing or something going on I think.

 

It's a positive step for me anyway, if nothing else (and I'm not saying so, I'm just still getting used to it), it'll give me another reference in addition to the couple pairs of headphones, laptop speakers, tv, car and friends' stereos.

 

dj, you've got plans for updating or further developing the plugin, new features coming? (like MacBookPro soundcard compensation! )

Matt, just wanted to say again how much I appreciate your efforts. After listening I have to side with you in that it's neither the world's greatest source material nor polished airplay-ready mixes, but the pattern of Redline Monitor improving the mixes is definitely there. Cool that even a headphones skeptic performing a proper blind test arrived at the conclusion I of course long knew to be true! 8)

 

I also think that some synth sounds with "natural" wideness or further artificial widening do something weird from time to time, there's minor phasing or something going on I think.

 

Most likely the articifical widening resulted in some minor stereo phase problems that aren't too noticeable on neither speakers nor regular headphones. Try mixing the stereo channels to mono and then listening on speakers, I'd be surprised if that didn't reveal the phasing as well.

 

you've got plans for updating or further developing the plugin, new features coming? (like MacBookPro soundcard compensation! Wink )

 

Definitely! I'm already working on improving the core algorithm even further, a much more comprehensive and customizable HRTF implementation--the current Distance control--, and support for (hardware) headtracking to allow for almost "real" localization. Also if you have any feature requests or suggestions I'd be more than interested to hear them!

 

Take care,

 

-- dj!

Tried to purchase this little guy after falling love with the demo but 112db's checkout system seems to be whacked. Went through the whole process of setting up an account and it isn't recognized. Trying to complete the transaction merely redirected me back to my cart. No license, no plug-in. Anyone else have any issues? I ask because the automated email response says they are gone until the 4th of April but I want to take advantage of the March sale!

Tried to purchase this little guy after falling love with the demo but 112db's checkout system seems to be whacked.

 

Just to make sure: we did already resolve this over email, right? And the sale runs until April 21, so no worries either way.

 

Take care,

 

-- dj!

Tried to purchase this little guy after falling love with the demo but 112db's checkout system seems to be whacked.

 

Just to make sure: we did already resolve this over email, right? And the sale runs until April 21, so no worries either way.

 

Take care,

 

-- dj!

 

Hey dj!,

 

All square. Been using it for just over a week and it is working great. Thanks for checking in, sir!

 

Brent

Has anyone else had this problem? The plugin seems to be incompatible with Soundtrack Pro. At least on my system, if it is installed, when I open STP and click the effects tab I get the spinning beach ball and I have to force quit STP. I remove Redline from the components folder and STP works normally.