Automation: Data Being Read Too Far in Advance? [SOLVED]

Trying to automate the release time of an EXS-24 string patch (something I've done a million times before without problem). But now I'm having a problem...

I have a passage of staccato notes. The release time is set pretty short (157 ms). On the very last note of the phrase I want to increase the release time to about 970 ms so that it rings out. Now, this is very easy to do -- I ride the release time slider in real time and write it to automation. After a little clean-up, the automation curve looks like this:

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/exsrst1.jpg

But on playback it sounds wrong -- the release time sounds like it's being turned up on the two notes before the last note. As a result, the end of the passage sounds like mush. It's like the automation data is being read too far in advance and being applied too early.

To get this part to sound right, I have to move the automation forward in time, so that it looks like this:

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/exsrst2.jpg

Anyone have an idea as to what this is all about? I'm stumped...

Is the project you're working on a copy of another project? There's something about that in that thread - and other good troubleshooting ideas even it's not:

http://logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=188044

Thanks for the quick replies David. To answer your questions...

It's a brand new project, made from a new template I made just today. The template was blank, i.e., no plugins. Just a bunch of audio instruments, tracks, bus objects, and auxes all "pre-created" so I don't have to create them on the fly as I'm working.

The song starts at 1 1 1 1, and an inspection of the automation arrange page shows nothing abnormal.

The strange thing is that mute and volume automation moves are spot on. But these EXS-24 release time parameter changes are consistently about a beat out (similar to what the OP in that other thread is experiencing). I can even see the release time slider move upwards before the playhead passes over the release automation.

Totally stumped...

http://www.yehoodi.com/beaver/images/beaver.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5wBTR2kKTqA/SKnNtEnpvPI/AAAAAAAAAY8/Vdi0XgJD9ns/s400/2H_parameters.jpg

Thanks very much for your reply shiver, though using that parameter won't give me the effect I'm looking for.

I may resort to using MIDI control to affect the release time just so I can get through this project.

If anyone has experienced this problem and knows how to work around it or cure it I'd be MOST appreciative!

SOLVED!

Prefs > Audio > General > Sample Accurate Automation

There are three settings for this parameter:

- Off

- Volume, Pan, Sends

- Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters

For some reason I had it set to "volume, pan, sends" (the second one). Switching it to the third one, which includes plug-in parameters, solved the issue. But read on...

Here's what will happen to you if you select the second option:

• ensures that either new or previously recorded plugin automation will play back with random and unpredictable timing (see below)

• wastes inordinate amounts of time and generates posts like this

• makes one wonder why such a parameter even exists. In other words, under what rational circumstances would you want your automated plugin parameters not be played in time?

Here's how bad the situation is:

I've attached a Logic song where I automated the filter switch on and off rhythmically in an EXS-24. Using just the default sine wave that you hear when you first load an EXS, the filter's drive is set up to distort the sine wave. When the filter is switched on and off, the tone changes, making it very easy to hear the on/off action.

• After you've opened the song, go to your prefs and set the Sample Accurate Automation parameter to the third setting (which includes plugins). Then hit play and you'll hear the rhythmic tone change.

• Then, switch the Sample Accurate Automation parameter to the second choice (volume, pan, sends) and hear how bloody awful the timing is.

• In this song, the automation event editor window should be open. If it's not, open it and you'll see that the automated parameter is quantized. Select all of those events (CMD-A) and use the mouse-as-slider to change the ticks value upwards to 90. Hit play. The timing will probably be much closer to the mark. Stop and hit play again. The timing will either be the same or different.

• Finally, set the tempo to 120 (doubling the original tempo of 60). Hit play. The timing of the automation will NOT follow. You need to offset the automation data by another 90 ticks (so change the ticks value to 180) and the effect will play in time again.

Other things that will negatively affect the timing of automation played back under the second option, "volume,pan,sends" version of Sample Accurate Automation:

• how long you leave Logic stopped inbetween hitting play

• changing the automation mode

autotiming.zip

SOLVED!

 

 

For some reason I had it set to "volume, pan, sends" (the second one).

I think the reason is that that is the default option for some hairbrain reason? I don't believe I have ever changed it, and that is what mine was set to.

OMG

Had to check my last project, and indeed -

Sample Accurate Automation is set to : Volume, Pan , Sends (by default, I've never changed this...).

No wonder I doubted all the hype about how tight logic's timing was.

Well... Off to double check everything I have ever done. Crap

• makes one wonder why such a parameter even exists.

Well, here's the short explanation from the manual:

Sample Accurate Automation

As the name implies, sample accurate automation is the most precise type of

automation. It places higher overheads on system resources, which may affect

performance (dependent on the nature of your projects, and available computing power). This is most likely to happen during heavy project sections—where a lot of software instruments and effects are in use. Logic Pro offers three settings:

Off: Minimal overhead on system performance for automation playback. Automation is less precise when this setting is active.

Volume, Pan, Sends: Only these parameters are automated with sample accuracy.

Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters: All of these parameters are automated with sample accuracy. Please note: Not all Audio Unit plug-ins can be automated in this

way.

Nice detective work, BTW, Mr. Ski.....

Hey Doug!

I guess my saying "I wonder why it even exists" was kind of rhetorical. It would be nice if the manual described what kind of tolerance to expect in terms of sample accurate vs. non-sample accurate. As I mentioned above, in my tests, at 60 BPM, automation will be off by approx. 90 ticks early. At 120 BPM the error doubles (180 ticks early). Maybe, just maybe, 1 or 2 ticks would be acceptable when sample accuracy was switched off. But 90 ticks? Ouch!!!

Best,

Ski

Hey Ski,

I assumed it was rhetorical, I just couldn't resist....

Some more info in the manual would be great so you would know what to expect when compromising. I have been ignorant of the setting myself and have found myself sometimes moving automation forward to work right - visually looking horrible (placement-wise) but musically sounding as intended.

I wonder if the CPU's ability to be overloaded is truly affected by these settings? On my G5 (setting was default, #2) I recently had some problems with a mix (every automation edit was really slow to redraw) and it appeared to be an overload of automation nodes. I put the project on my laptop, which ran much better, and was able to clean up the unneeded nodes. Put it back on my G5 and everything worked great. (Could have been file corruption as well, don't know.)

So referring to my question - what computer are you running it on (what happened to your signature..?). If you're on an 8 core, maybe the CPU hit is a non-issue. Maybe on my old G5, it is (and time for bouncing tracks - or better yet, getting a new tower!)

Hey Doug,

8)

My system settings went bye-bye temporarily to make room for the plug for my upcoming Logic classes in LA. [fixed!!]

Well, now you have both signature and plug for classes!

From what we saw up here in Seattle when you gave a sample at our SLUG meeting, they should be very informative and helpful. Wish I had the time to be there.

I've noticed that when I automate audio channel strips (volume, plugins etc.. ) It's always on the money, but If I automate auxiliary busses then there's always a delay or lag in the automation (What I hear is happening after it should be.) It seems to change with different buffer settings and the amount of plugins on the given aux bus. Pretty damn annoying!!! I'm leaning towards thinking It's a Core Audio problem. Other people I know have experienced similar problems.

BTW.. I have sample accurate automation set for everything it can be.

C'mon Apple, this is pretty fundamental stuff....

I've noticed that when I automate audio channel strips (volume, plugins etc.. ) It's always on the money, but If I automate auxiliary busses then there's always a delay or lag in the automation (What I hear is happening after it should be.) It seems to change with different buffer settings and the amount of plugins on the given aux bus. Pretty damn annoying!!! I'm leaning towards thinking It's a Core Audio problem. Other people I know have experienced similar problems.

I have exactly the same problem here. There's a delay on any AUX or BUS automation, but not on regular channels. Why is this? And can it be fixed?