Beatmapping, Flex Time, Tempo Map

I am having a devil of a time with this.

Recorded acoustic guitar part, tracked no click.

Created beatmap of that track, with tempo changes on or about every bar, with sometimes on 1/4 notes.

This gave me a tempo map.

Tracked drums against that no problems, then as normal went into sample editor for the kick and snare tracks and set up transient markers, all functioning like it was done without a tempo map, was seamless and fine. Then no problems quantizing those drums.

Track bass part, all of a sudden I have "Blue Flex markers" when I turn on flex time for the bass.

Never seen them before in my life, after searching the net, I find out they are Tempo flex markers, new on on me???

Anyways, as I said, was doing fine, and already multitracked and flex edited drums without these blue markers popping up.

Cannot, for the life of me, get the bass track to work, as soon as I enable SLICING in flex, it shifts the audio, and i can see it being streteched and shortened (eg green and orange) I would have thought it should be normal.

I have read heaps, about deleting the tempo infomation from the audio file etc etc and tried everything I can find on the net.

Can someone, who does this, flex's audio, against beatmapped audio, therefrore a tempo map, explain how this works?

Why, all of a sudden, do I have blue flex markers to contend with, they didnt happen when I tracked the drums? How do you work around this.

I would like to be able to do what I have done, record and acoustic guitar part, no click, then create a beatmapped tempo for that so subsequent audio can be edited succesfully, using flex time.

thanks so much

cheers

Wiz

I would like to be able to do what I have done, record and acoustic guitar part, no click, then create a beatmapped tempo for that so subsequent audio can be edited succesfully, using flex time.

When you record in Logic, whichever tempo the project has, is written to the audio file as metadata. You can verify this when you import a file that's been recorded in Logic in some audio editors. You'll see the project tempo appear as a marker. Here's a file I recorded in Logic and then opened in Izotope's RX2:

As it turns out, Flex does its job based on the file's embedded tempo data. If you proceed to beatmap your file, the resulting tempo changes won't automatically become part of the file. So when you start flexing, as far as Flex knows, the file still has whichever fixed tempo the project had when you first recorded.

This is why you need to remove the tempo info from your files AND THEN export the tempo changes that resulted from beat mapping to the files. Once the beat map tempos become part of the files, Flex will be able to do its job properly.

Here's an audio file that has had tempo changes from beat mapping exported to it:

As usual, your regions must be selected before you invoke the remove and export tempo info commands.

J.

thank you so much for your reply and graphs... will delve back in and try again.. though I have (I am nearly positive) removed the tempo info, and re inserted many times before.

Also I am tracking the bass part , direct into the beatmapped song. So it contains, as tempo information the tempo info , as it is existing in the tune, beatmapped.

thanks again ... will give it another shot.

cheers

Wiz

Also I am tracking the bass part , direct into the beatmapped song. So it contains, as tempo information the tempo info , as it is existing in the tune, beatmapped.

Right, you can start flexing that one right away without removing or exporting tempo info.

As usual, make sure to open the file in the sample editor and check for extra or missing transient markers (Transient Editing Mode).

J.

Also I am tracking the bass part , direct into the beatmapped song. So it contains, as tempo information the tempo info , as it is existing in the tune, beatmapped.

 

Right, you can start flexing that one right away without removing or exporting tempo info.

 

As usual, make sure to open the file in the sample editor and check for extra or missing transient markers (Transient Editing Mode).

 

J.

See, here is the problem I can't.

As soon as I enable flex time on his track, it's an issue.

This is where I first came across the blue transient markers inthe first place.

This is where I first came across the blue transient markers inthe first place.

Read more about the tempo markers here:

viewtopic.php?p=301950#p301950

J.

I am convinced this doesnt work. Or at the very least it doesnt work how I expect it would.

I free record an acoustic guitar part.

I beatmap to that acoustic guitar part. I might have a tempo change every bar, sometimes every 1/2 note sometimes every quarter note.

I now have a tempo map that follows the acosutic guitar beautifully, and the click plays great with it.

I now, track a bass guitar against this.

This is where it never gets any further.

As soon as I enable flex on the bass guitar track, I have blue tempo markers in the region.

Some of these blue tempo markers are on quarter notes, that appear as a held bass note is playing.

I can hear it playing passed the tempo marker, through the sustained bass note.

Try it for yourself.

create a beatmapped tempo map, that has tempo changes on every quarter note or half note within a bar. Then play a sustained note, that sustains across multiple tempo changes, and you will see and hear the issue.

This, makes it quite useless.

I would love it if someone could show me the error of my ways.

I have tried importing,exporting tempo in and out of audio files, restarting the project, re recording everything till I am blue in the face.

cheers

Wiz

and this is one of the reasons I think David Earl over at Pyramind goes from doing a beat map and then flex time to then having the whole project at one tempo.

I don't know how to do this however. Here's the video I'm talking about (http://www.pyramindonline.com/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=115&Itemid=2) but you have to sign up to watch it.

Point being, it seems to me that in order to get audio that was recorded without a click, to then follow an UNCHANGING click, is to use flextime. I'm really confused how One would make a beat map that changes the tempo all the time, and then end up at ANY point with a steady unchanging click without using LOTS of flex time - which would ruin the audio =/

Flex has worked well here in all kinds of ways and for the most part, it doesn't "ruin" the audio. Admittedly, there are some confusing procedures to deal with, like knowing exactly when to use the import/export tempo functions.

I've taken stereo song files recorded live and made them conform to a steady tempo with little or no artifacts. As I recall, after recording the song into Logic, this is usually a simple procedure of beat map, Flex and then choose a new (steady) tempo. Everything snaps into place. But the trick here is to beatmap mostly just the bar lines.

I've taken multitracked songs that needed to speed up or slow down in specific areas and created a "conductor" track in the tempo lane. This requires some pickiness as you can't insert a tempo change on held notes. But again, great and transparent results.

The thing about beatmapping is to use only as much beatmapping as you really need - in my case, that's usually every bar. Or two! Leaving the half and quarter notes alone means you retain the feel within the bar. Later on, after you've created your steady tempo, if that feel is too loose you can always snap the transients to the beats with Flex.

@ Wizozland.... In the case of your bass having artifacts at the blue lines, maybe it would be better to record the bass after you've done the Beatmap-Flex-choose new tempo routine. Then there will be no artifacts on the new bass part.

As soon as I enable flex time on the bass guitar it shifts the audio. When recording after beatmapping. I have actually just about given up on this, I have ordered a copy of Cubase 7 and will give that a try, if it doesnt work out, sell it.

I really want to be able to go down the route, of recording my acoustic free... then map tempo off that, then quantize audio recorded after that, to the grid I have just created. I see many many benefits of doing this, and will chase it for a while to see If I can make it work.

I will go watch the video on the pyramind site, (thanks for posting that) and I will pop back here and update the thread if I find anything conclusive.

But at this point. It seems impossible to.

A) track acoustic guitar free time (not to click)

B) beatmap that track to the resolution one would need to quantize drums after, 1/4 and or 1/8th notes

C) now record Drums Bass etc , and then quantize that using flex time to the grid created in step B.

cheers

Wiz

It appears there may be a way, to get... close.

track everyting to no click.

Make tempo map from acoustic, being as sparing on the tempo markers as humanly possible. Say a bar, or couple of bars or only needed beats.

Now remove all the tempo information from all the audio files. Then IMPORT the tempo information back into the audio files.

Now FLEX the parts.

Will be intersting to compare Cubase 7 when it arrives to this method.

cheers

Wiz

Yes! That is the way and you've explained it in about a tenth of the space I was about use in my reply to you. But I'll include a few tips anyway......

Here's a few of the finer points on beatmapping (and some Flex tips as well).....

Try and set your project tempo, in advance, to something close to the tempo you're playing your guitar at. This will make beat mapping easier.

Also, to make things a bit easier down the line, count in a tempo, or even better click it in with your mouth or just tap on the pickguard with the pick - anything like that, so that you'll be able to include the count-in in your beatmapping.

After recording, move the file so that the first downbeat is right on a bar line. This will also make it easier to beatmap since you're not having to stretch things very far to line up with Logic's bars.

Beatmap as few beats as possible. Now sometimes this isn't possible, especially near the top where you're trying to establish the basic tempo. But later on, you can delete some of the beatmapping in between bars. If adjacent bars are really close in tempo, you might even consider deleting the bar line in the middle. It all comes down to how much feel you want to shine through the steady tempo of the subsequent drums. After all, feel is the reason you're going to all this trouble in the first place.

It's best do do all of the beatmapping (and any changes to the beatmapping) before any new audio is recorded.

After beatmapping, go to Options / Tempo and:

Remove Tempo Information From Audio File

Export Tempo Information to Audio File

Now you can flex the file, it will stay where it needs to be and you can quantize it if need be or manually adjust beats with Flex Markers. You will have the blue tempo markers but that's OK.

Things that can Eff up......

If you try and flex your audio file with out doing the remove/import tempo steps then your audio will definitely be out and will move from it's original position. Why? Becuase it has the original tempo information embedded in it - the tempo that logic was set at before you beatmapped.

Also, if you've made this mistake and tried to fix it by turning of flex, you might still have a messed up tempo until you uncheck the follow tempo box.

HTH!

yep, what I have done is find the basic tempo.

Create a count in with midi, and have it stop playing after two bars, this means my downbeat on the first recorded bar is exactly in place.

Any deviation from the tempo, is either intentional, or because I am human.....

this puts it pretty close to the ball park.

cheers

Wiz

As little beat maping as possible....

I'll give it another whirl and see if I can flex the parts inbetween the bars. But what I have the most trouble with is wrapping my head around how you go from a metronome that's changing every bar to one that doesn't change at all. Do you just flex parts until all the beatmapped stuff is unianimos?

I realize I maybe should start another thread of my own woes...apologies to OP

Hi

what I have the most trouble with is wrapping my head around how you go from a metronome that's changing every bar to one that doesn't change at all. Do you just flex parts until all the beatmapped stuff is unianimos?

 

One solution is to do the beat-mapping as described earlier so that the "click now matches the audio", then enable Flex. This "stamps" all the tempo info, as well as any 'tags' relating to where the bar/beat grid is in relation to the audio transients etc.

Once you have done this, simply change the tempo track to one that has a 'flat line' constant tempo, using the Tempo Alternatives function. This usually works pretty well.

CCT

Finally getting back to this as I was losing my mind with this beatmapping stuff. What is the "Tempo Alternatives function?"

I've beatmapped everything so that the click is following the recording I received but if I enable Flex time (and pick polyphonic or speed what not) it gets REAL wonky and everything is off again. Stetches a good huge chunk of the end so that it sounds rather unpleasant as well.

Also, it goes from 4/4 to 6/8 in the middle and the tempo drops from ~112 to ~81 - would this alter whatever insights you are going to give Thanks

Tempo alternatives: Global tracks / Tempo / Tempo Alternatives.

You don't need to change tempo this way; you could just do it from the transport but TA allows you to try out different tempos and refer back to them as saved settings in the song. You get nine possibilities.

Wonky File: Your file got wonky because you missed a couple of steps. See my post in this thread about removing and importing tempos.

I cleared the tempo information and then exported it (though nothing seems to have happened either way - didn't ask where to save the file or anything when exporting and nothing changed when clearning). I feel like I don't understand something crucial. I don't even understand why I'm beatmaping if I'm going to go in and flex time it anyway; seems completely wasteful. I seem to have had much better luck just locking SMPTE on the files until I found a close enough BPM, then flexing out the butt (on another track with 8 vocal parts and 4 guitars) and spent less time before I finally got to be a bit creative with the song

Very frustrating this whole affair =/

I cleared the tempo information and then exported it (though nothing seems to have happened either way - didn't ask where to save the file or anything when exporting and nothing changed when clearning).

When you export tempo info to a file, you're just updating the file's tempo metadata, you're not creating a new file. Same deal when removing tempo info.

J.

You don't need to file anything when you remove/add tempo info. It becomes metadata within the file itself.

Before beatmapping and flexing a file that's played off the grid, you have a performance that already has embedded tempo info in it that was derived from the transport's tempo. However, that info doesn't match the performance. Say if you played at an average tempo of 110 but Logic was set at 115, then the file's tempo info is also 115. But of course that doesn't match the tempo implied by the performance itself. So you beat map to create a grid that matches the performance, with all it's tempo variations. Now the grid's tempo matches the file. But the metadata (the tempo info contained in the file) still doesn't match Logic's tempo. As far as the file is concerned, the tempo is still 115.

This is where the remove / import tempo information function comes into play. By doing this step, you are making the metadata conform to Logic's new beatmapped tempo, which will of course have all kinds of variations in it. So all those variations become part of the file's metadata. (With me so far?) The important thing to realize is that you now have a file where the embedded tempo info makes all the "beat ones" - the first beat of each bar - matches Logic's bars.

(Ah, I see, Jordito has already answered this with his customary brevity. But keep reading, this might make it all make sense....)

Now, if you decide that you would prefer that your performance sticks to one steady tempo, Flex the file and then you can choose a new tempo in Tempo Alternatives and the whole file, with all it's current tempo variations will now magically snap to the new steady tempo. That is, if you've done a good job beatmapping and done the required removing of old tempo info and adding of new tempo info.

At this point, if you've only beatmapped to bars, you might find the occasional beat in between bar lines that you want to pull into place. Since the file is now flexed, this is easy to do.

Hopefully, this helps with your overall conception of how beatmapping, tempo information and flex all work together.

thanks for taking the time to walk me through all that. I really do appreciate it. I've somehow done something wrong...somehow and it just doesn't work for me. I remove then export the tempo info, enable flex then move to tempo alternative 2 (figuriing that the changes that I'm seeing are then the result of the beat mapped tempos causing the newly stamped audio to follow the tempo changes twice as it were; though it doesn't work if I do flex after switching).

Actually I think it's got some kind of flex info stamped on and earlier you mentioned this can be a problem so I should uncheck the "follow tempo" box but I have no idea where this box might find it's nightly habitation

thanks for taking the time to walk me through all that. I really do appreciate it. I've somehow done something wrong...somehow and it just doesn't work for me. I remove then export the tempo info, enable flex then move to tempo alternative 2 (figuriing that the changes that I'm seeing are then the result of the beat mapped tempos causing the newly stamped audio to follow the tempo changes twice as it were; though it doesn't work if I do flex after switching).

Don't know why this isn't working for you. What exactly happens after you switch tempos? Are you doing things in the right order?

Beatmap - remove/export tempo - flex - change tempo.

And which changes are you seeing?

Actually I think it's got some kind of flex info stamped on and earlier you mentioned this can be a problem so I should uncheck the "follow tempo" box but I have no idea where this box might find it's nightly habitation

The Follow Tempo check box is also in the Inspector. If you don't see it after selecting a region then likely it's not an issue.

Here some screenshots. First is beatmapped, second is after remove/export where you can see the file now being stretched to the beatmap, then the 3rd to show what it's like if I just use a tempo alternative (which still doesn't work because I'm back at square 1 with trying to sync the tempo =/

(edit) it flipped the order =/)

Well that does look effed up for sure.....

I still have to ask, are you doing things in the right order?

Beat map a non-flexed file

Then Remove / Export tempo

(NOTE - the specific file must be selected before doing this operation!!)

Then Flex

Ok, don't change tempos just yet....

At this point, the file should simply stay where it was in the first place. But looking at your middle image, it looks like it's moved way over to the left after you enabled flex. This shouldn't happen if you've done things in the right order.

One thing I'm noticing is that your beat mapping has tempo changes that start before the file does. Have you moved the region subsequent to beatmapping? It should stay where it was when you did the beat mapping. Another thing is there is one "spike" in your beat map, right on a bar line close to the beginning. That doesn't seem quite right either. But otherwise, you seem to be generally mapping whole bars, (or more) which is good practice.

And finally, once you've done the beatmapping (and before doing anything else) does the file play along with Logic's click? (Or, I should say, does Logic's click play along with the beatmapped file?) If not, you need to redo the beat mapping....

I'm just imagining this is one of those pointless glitches I manage to get?

Followiing instructions exactly. The huge spike in the beginning is unavoidable, but it's only the space from beat 4 to 1 and isn't even noticeable via the click/drums I put over it in another project file (because I'm sick of working on this and want to make something!). The change in tempo in the beginning of the song could be deleted, it's just the tempo I set after doing the beat detection plugin and then where it adjusted after my first beatmaping.

Haven't shifted the audio file and when I play it, it's *generally* to the click that the metronome gives me. There are a lot of variations in this performance and it's guitar and 2 vox. Vox is following gtr so I followed it too but that means their vox changes are way more noticed. =/

The file isn't flexed before I start beatmaping either and is "off" when I do enable Flex View to which I change it to poly/rhythm/etc... and get the middle picture

=(

I'm just imagining this is one of those pointless glitches I manage to get?

Yes, these digital demons know just how to torment us!

All very odd and perplexing. I see also that your middle image shows that the file is stretching at the slow tempos (orange) and compressing (green) at the faster ones, which is consistent behaviour with a file that has an embedded tempo that differs from the one currently showing in the transport. So it appears that your file is not accepting the new project tempo when you do the Export Tempo Information to Audio File step. What you should be seeing is NO orange or green, just the usual black waveform display throughout the file, with blue lines where ever there is a tempo change.

Here's one more thing to try. Turn off Flex (but keep the beatmapping) and then re-record all your files back into Logic on new tracks at the same position. You can do this by routing the signal through a bus and having another record-enabled channel's input set to the same bus. Simplest way is to set the output of the track with the regions on it to that bus and have that track's fader set at unity. Set your playhead at the top of the file and then hit record. This *will* put the correct meta data into the resulting files.

Let us know if this works out!

you're a genius!! I took the original and sent it to a bus, put another audio track own with an input of that bus and it worked this time when I put flex time on.

All that however and I don't think I'll be able to use it =( The file has 2vox+guitar and the guitar has a tremolo effect on it. Flex time somehow mishes the two sounds together if it has to stretch any of the audio too much. I went in and did more large-scale beat mapping for only a few sections where the tempo gets REAL loose but... just don't work. I think we're gonna have to re-track it all a some point anyway so for demo purposes... I guess beatmapping is where this project stops.

However I do have another project that I think will benefit so, yay for learning!

thanks for helping me, it's much appreciated.

You're very welcome!

you're a genius!!

Just call me "Gean".

I got this to work by beatmapping to the audio first, then bouncing each track in place, and then turning on flex.

The remove/export tempo info didn't work for me.

I've had to do something similar like this with flextime before, I hate to say it but Pro Tools is so much easier to warp audio in. Luckily my session only has a few tracks, I shouldn't have to make a duplicate of every track just to warp. I still love Logic though, just would like to see a better workflow for this in future releases.