NRPN support

My Alesis Andromeda uses NRPN commands for knob movements rather than midi cc. These are a more accurate and updated method. Why is there no option to record NRPN commands so I can record knob movement, an more worryingly no option to enter NRPN modulation. Even my Amiga using software from 1996 can do this! I thought Logic was supposed to be the best. Cubase has this integrated into its setup. Do I need to sell my Mac and move to the murky world of windoze to make use of this function?

Why is there no option to record NRPN commands so I can record knob movement,

 

Logic will record any incoming MIDI.

 

an more worryingly no option to enter NRPN modulation.

 

For NRPN controls, create a fader object in the Environment. Set the output parameter for Sysex and an event list type window will open. Create 2 controller events here. Define the first for the NRPN number of the synth parameter you want the fader to edit, the second for controlling number. Make sure the second controlling message is highlighted before you close the window because that's what tells Logic which message will be changed when you move the fader.

 

Name the fader for the synth parameter it's to control.

 

You can create tracks for these faders which target your synth, or just have them feed the sequencer object directly. You can use them in conjunction with transformer objects to scale or modify the controlling data, or make vector control faders for multiple parameters. You can also create hypersets that remote control these faders, particularly useful if you want to do rhythm based automation of those parameters.

 

Post back if you need any help.

Thanks Fader8, I read a reply you'd made to another thread on this forum in regards to NRPN commands. In that post you mention that there are only 128 NRPN commands (I think this was unit specific and not a general remark) and that in the value box of of command 98 of the event editor type window I need to put the NRPN number I wish to control. The NRPN number of the filter cutoff of the A6 for example is a four digit number and yet the option is only present to input a number between1 and 128. How do I input a four digit number in this box?

 

Cubase a a function to "learn" where you move any knob/fader etc and it gives the relative NRPN number for this function. This is currently the only way I know of finding out what the numbers are for the functions on my A6. Does Logic have a similar function hidden away somewhere?

I found the A6 sysex and nrpn parameter chart, but it would help a lot if you could upload here a MIDI recording of you twisting a knob so I can look at the event list.

 

I've never been keen on Alesis MIDI documentation!

OK. I have recorded the knob movement of FREQ 2 on the A6. How/where do I upload it? It won't allow me to add a .logic document as an attachment.

I moved the knob from one extreme to the other twice. The modulation data on the piano scroll shows evidence of the knob movement but it doesn't go from one extreme to the other. I see nothing in the event window or in the hyper editor.

When I play it back the modulation has no effect.

Thanks for your time.

OK. I have recorded the knob movement of FREQ 2 on the A6. How/where do I upload it? It won't allow me to add a .logic document as an attachment.

Make a zip file of it in the Finder. That will work.

Doh! So simple sometimes.

 

OK here it is. FREQ 2 knob being moved up and down to its two extremes twice.

 

Previous message details the data.

A6 Freq 2.zip

FREQ 2 knob being moved up and down to its two extremes twice.

 

There's nothing in that region except a note event. Since your input filter settings seem alright in this project, you may want to check any utility menus in your Andromeda to see if the knob MIDI transmit has been disabled.

Looks like you recorded it... or something.

The data was definately sent and received as I saw a graphical representation of this in the automation section of the piano scroll window. I thought that I had left this open for you to see. Will post a screenshot of this if you need me to clarify more.

 

When playing back however, the automation has no effect on the A6 and when looking in the event window and hyper editor there is no information relating to the knob movement.

 

When recored the knob movement I saw the graphical display update as Logic registered something. Seems like a shortcoming in Logic where, as I originally stated, there is a lack of NRPN support in this software. I hoping you can prove me wrong here and that there is a way to implement NRPN support for modulation but as yet I am losing hope.

I saw the graphical representation. I also found the owners manual for the unit.

 

However, not actually having the unit makes it difficult to try out and confirm things.

 

The automation is controlling some Logic parameter by means of drawing it in, or using an external controller.

 

Basically, you want to record the Freq 2 knob movement and then have Logic send the info back to control your A6 the same way Logic does with the midi info.

 

I need to read more in the manual, but in the mean time, What value shows up in the controller assignments if you use the Learn function and the Freq knob to control something like a Logic volume fader?

I saw the graphical representation. I also found the owners manual for the unit.

 

However, not actually having the unit makes it difficult to try out and confirm things.

 

The automation is controlling some Logic parameter by means of drawing it in, or using an external controller.

 

Basically, you want to record the Freq 2 knob movement and then have Logic send the info back to control your A6 the same way Logic does with the midi info.

 

I need to read more in the manual, but in the mean time, What value shows up in the controller assignments if you use the Learn function and the Freq knob to control something like a Logic volume fader?

 

Also,

 

Here is another graphic showing that you did move the control all the way up 2ce.

Does Logic have a learn function? Please tell of where it is as I do not know the NRPN number for Freq 2, although Fader8 said of having the total NRPN and Sysex parameter chart.

 

The value that showed up initially in the display when I first recorded the info was number 6. I knew that this was not correct as number 6 also showed up when I moved a different knob (LPF 2 Amount). Where did you find that second graphic that shows movement up to 128? NRPN commands have a maximum value of 4000 I thought, Logic translating this to 128 is somewhat backwards isn't it?

 

What value shows up in the controller assignments if you use the Learn function and the Freq knob to control something like a Logic volume fader?

 

How do I do this?

Does Logic have a learn function? Please tell of where it is as I do not know the NRPN number for Freq 2, although Fader8 said of having the total NRPN and Sysex parameter chart.

 

The value that showed up initially in the display when I first recorded the info was number 6. I knew that this was not correct as number 6 also showed up when I moved a different knob (LPF 2 Amount). Where did you find that second graphic that shows movement up to 128? NRPN commands have a maximum value of 4000 I thought, Logic translating this to 128 is somewhat backwards isn't it?

 

What value shows up in the controller assignments if you use the Learn function and the Freq knob to control something like a Logic volume fader?

 

How do I do this?

 

I was curious to see what shows up. In the Logic preference Control Surface/controller assignment window there is a LEARN function.

 

Specifically, the Input Value change box.

 

 

 

The second graphic is based on the info you supplied.

The 4 parts are:

98

99

6

38

 

Look up NRPN and it will explain all that.

 

The question still stands as to what specifically you want to do. Use your A6 to control Logic parameters, use Logic to record and control your A6, or a combination of both?

 

 

 

"... NRPN stands for "Non-Registered Parameter Number" and is part of the MIDI specification for control of electronic musical instruments. NRPNs allow for manufacturer-specific or instrument-specific MIDI controllers that are not part of the basic MIDI standard.

Unlike other MIDI controllers (such as velocity, modulation, volume, etc), NRPNs require more than one piece of controller data to be sent. First, controller 98 - NRPN Most Significant Bit (MSB) - followed by 99 - NRPN Least Significant Bit (LSB) sent as a pair specify the parameter to be changed. Controller 6 then sets the value of the parameter in question. Controller 38 may optionally then be sent as a fine adjustment to the value set by controller 6.

Consequently, NRPNs allow for MIDI control of a vastly greater number of parameters than the basic 128 set out in the basic MIDI standard. Since the values of those parameters may be set by two separate controllers (ie. both 6 and 38 ), NRPNs also allow a much greater resolution than conventional MIDI controllers, which have only 128 possible values."

 

Also

 

http://www.midisite.com/info/synth/RPN.htm

http://www.midisite.com/info/synth/SysEx.htm#checksum

Attached is the pdf sysex and nrpn document. I DL'd your project again as there seemed to be something wrong and sure enough, now I can see your data. Weird.

This controller data looks a bit confused. Almost like it's been thinned. If it's not too much trouble, could you try this again, but record the knob very slowly, just once from min to max? That may help.

a6syx_172.pdf.zip

Also, Page 258 of your ref manual may help.

Download this file:

 

http://www.wohmart.com/a6/tandt/A6TipsAndTricks.pdf

 

Notably this statement:

 

It may be possible that by default, the knobs on the front panel do not transmit the MIDI NPRN data that they should, that allows you to send out sweeps to the MIDI sequencer. To enable this, go to the “GLOBAL” menu, and select PANEL (soft button 5). The setting TXMODE determines whether the knobs affect things locally only (LOCAL); whether the

knobs ONLY send out MIDI data (MIDI), or whether both are enable (LOCMID).

 

Turn RXMODE ON in the menu so that the knob sweeps play back properly; this enables MIDI NPRNs to be received by the Andromeda. Use the TXTHIN button and adjust the density so it accurately captures the sweeps, without clogging up the MIDI channels.

 

So if you make a new file, make sure that TXTHIN parameter is letting all the data through. Move the knob slowly while recording.

Well, with all this help, we should be getting somewhere, eh?

 

OK, try this project file. The environment fader "may" control the Freq 2 parameter, but try playing your keyboard and moving this fader.

 

Make sure the multi-instrument object has it port set correctly to output MIDI to the A6.

A6 Freq 2-nrpn_fader.logic.zip

Thanks again guys

 

Yep, upon looking further into the midi settings on the A6 I saw that the NRPN data was being thinned and that the RX mode was off, with these adjusted accordingly I now have the effect I want with Logic playing back the knob movement I recorded. Thanks for your help, I should have more thoroughly examined my midi documentation for the A6 before blaming Logic for the problem.

 

As for what I want to do, I would love to be able to assign the A6 controls to Logic parameters, say a VST synth so that the envelopes, filters, oscillators are controlled by the relative controls on the A6 so that the A6 becomes a master control surface (with 72 knobs and 125 buttons). I imagine this would be a fairly lengthy process to set up but I would only need do it once.

 

I shall read the Logic documentation for this and try and get my head around this NRPN data in the event window. You're right, the Alesis documentation is not the easiest to get to grips with.

 

Now you've shown me that this is possible I will endeavor to learn the process involved.

 

Thanks yet again.

OK I've just tried out the fader controller you designed for me, it controls the Freq 2 knob but the fader range 1-30 controls knob from its min to max. Values from 30+ seem to have a somewhat random but detailed effect. I have included another attempt at this recording with the NRPN signal no longer thinned to see if this makes more sense.

A6 Freq 2.zip

I have tried recording multiple NRPN command changes, specifically Filter 1 Freq and Key Track which creates some nice sounding harmonic resonant changes in a filter sweep. When trying to record this I found that as soon as I try to change the second parameter I get a jerky, jumpy sound that is totally unsmooth and unusable. At first I thought that the problem could be in the trasmitting of the NRPN data and the way Logic reads this but further experimentation showed that the A6 appears to struggle to deal with more than one set of NRPN data being altered, even directly from the front panel knobs without Logic being involved. I even unplugged the midi out cable to further clarify this.

the only way to get a smooth transition of multiple knob parameters is to disable Midi RX send/receive in the Global menu under "panel". This solves the problem occurring when I use the front panel controls but obviously disables the ability to record these control changes except as an audio file which I can't fine tune, only record another take (which is what I will have to do).

Does anyone else out there own this synth or a different synth that uses NRPN and know of this problem? Is it a fault with my particular keyboard or with all Andromedas or have I overlooked something?

Has anyone encountered this issue when working with automating using NRPN commands and is there a workaround to get the effect I want?

I can assign Freq 1 to a midi cc in the mod matrix but I am unable to assign Key Track, therefore the only way to automate that control is through NRPN it seems. Please somebody prove me wrong.

Because NRPN messages can make for very dense MIDI data transmission, especially with two parameters transmitting at once, you could simply be up against the MIDI bandwidth limits. Depends on how fast you're moving the controls, of course.

 

I suppose your MIDI interface and how it buffers the data could have something to do with it too. If you have access to another, it might be worth a try. Or, it could be that the A6's OS can't keep up with the transmission. A lot of variables there between hardware, firmware, software drivers, etc.

OK. When I have recorded NRPN data I get 2 displays to represent the data. cc6 represents the main movements but only uses the bottom band of the automation display. And cc38 which is like a fine tweaking of the movements from cc6.

Can I translate these into a single display showing the sum of the two displays?

Or do I need to set up a control environment to allow me to change this two commands with a single controller and then automate that?

It seems that NRPN data is supported in a visually strange way that leaves it rather uneditable compared to ccs. Perhaps a suggestion for future versions of logic would be a way of translating this data when it is recorded in a way that allows it to be easily tweaked.

This is the display I get from twiddling one knob, would be nice if I just had to alter one parameter to tweak it.

 

 

[Edit: Attachment deleted. Too large. Please keep all screenshots below 800 pixels, thanks. Read Me Before Posting - Forum Guidelines -Moderator]

Or do I need to set up a control environment to allow me to change this two commands with a single controller and then automate that?

Yes. If you set up the fader in the environment, then you can set its input definition to any standard cc and automate that from a track, or hyperedit, etc.

Fader8. I'm sorry I only just spotted that fader control you made me on the last page. I guess because I'd found resolution to the initial problem and didn't look further until I found more problems.

 

I tried out the fader and it moved the freq 2 from bottom to top in the bottom section of the fader (0-16) in a very jerky way, it then moved it back down again and then up and down but with a random scattering of frequency the higher the fader went. At the top it was pretty much random.

 

I noticed that control 32 was at a constant value. this needs to be the offset value to cc6, the 2 of them combined being the final amount by which freq 2 is moved.

 

in my original recordings cc6 moves very little and cc32 moves up and down massively, resembling a saw wave so it must be offsetting from its last command every time as well as cc6 to get a smooth sounding result out of what looks like a very jerky movement. Not sure how to program cc32 to react to the fader movement though.

Sorry to keep dragging this thread back up to the top but I still feel a lack of resolution to this particular problem. And also thanks to you guys for the time you've spent trying to help me with this. I only wish I could report back and say "yep all sorted"

 

After trying out the fader that Fader8 made I found that a project that I was working on with the andromeda had the track automation stop working. I don't know if this is connected. I posted another thread about this problem but to no avail.

 

Am I alone in having this particular problem with trying to automate using NRPN commands?

Am I alone in having this particular problem with trying to automate using NRPN commands?

Hey Misfit,

It's pretty tough to say what your problem could be with automation without looking at that project. If you like, zip the .logic file and attach it here. We could take a look and see where it's going wrong.

 

As far as the NRPN fader itself, based on what we've already talked about, I don't think I can go any further unless I physically had an andromeda here.

As far as the NRPN fader itself, based on what we've already talked about, I don't think I can go any further unless I physically had an andromeda here.

 

Understood, but thanks for trying. It's a shame that NRPN control was not better implemented in Logic. If I remember right Cubase has a function to learn a specific NRPN number from reading the midi data from a knob movement and then transmit data to that particular controller.

 

It would be lovely if in logic there was a little sub menu in the cc automation menu for NRPN with an empty input box to put in the NRPN number you wish to automate. I guess NRPN is not that commonplace and therefore not a worthwhile feature to add to the program. Is the Andromeda fairly unique in using NRPN commands in this way?

 

The problem with track automation disabling itself was with assignable cc commands on the andromeda. Allowing me to automate the controls, albeit not to record the knob movement and edit the data afterwards.

Anyway, the cc commands in the arrange window automation ceased to work. Piano roll automation was fine though.

 

I have included the project, the part in question has been shoved to the end of the track and is between the locators. Another midi region placed underneath to allow me to replace the automation in the piano roll. I deleted the piano roll automation in this section but there is a section just before where I have left it intact.

 

Many many thanks again for your time.

ProjectA.zip

Hey Misfit,

I'm going to respond in your other post that has this as a topic. Just to keep things straight.