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the sinner
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Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:36 am

Fred B wrote:
sinner,

I think it's still not quite clear what exactly do you want to achieve?

a) play two different cym sounds just with the modwheel, without hitting a key.

OR

b) select one of two different cym sounds with modwheel, and then hit a key to play it.

OR

c) ... ?


B
 
Fred B
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Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:56 am

the sinner wrote:
B

Ok, for this case 'Orsanct' has described the simple solution in his first post.
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fader8
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Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:01 am

Orsanct wrote:
Just to make sure I understand this, does this mean that if I list a sequence of groups in the Select By area, each time I play a note from this group, I will trigger each Select By group -- in order -- until I reach the end of the list. At that point, it will start the sequence over. Is that correct?


Yup. AKA a "Group Chain". A good example is a 2 group chain where group 1 is an upstrummed guitar and group 2 is downstrummed. Each time you play the note, they alternate.

Redmatica's Keymap actually has a dedicated Group Chain editor. Even if you don't have this software, which I highly recommend, download the manual as it helps in comprehending the EXS advanced features a little better.
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Orsanct
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Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:39 am

Thanks, fader8, for the clarification. The Keymap manual really does a nice job of explaining this feature. I'm kind of curious about what kind of creative uses folks have made of "group chains" (other than up/down strokes and "humanizing" the performance of repeated notes). Anybody out there done any interesting things with this?

I've gotta get Keymap sometime. I've been eyeing it recently.
 
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ski
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Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:44 am

Sinner,

A mod wheel at rest triggers sample A.
A mod wheet at full or anything triggers sample B.

So the mod wheel does not vibrato or anything it only triggers pre recorded samples.


After going through the trouble to illustrate everything on the previous page, and now seeing that this isn't what you wanted, it's time to get the nomenclature straight...

"Trigger" is synth terminology for "the thing that initiates a sound". So to say that "the mod wheel.....only triggers pre-recorded samples" indicates that you want modwheel movements to actually initiate the sound.

As Fred has pointed out, Orsanct has already provided you with the answer.
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ski
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Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:50 am

Orsanct wrote:
Thanks, fader8, for the clarification. The Keymap manual really does a nice job of explaining this feature. I'm kind of curious about what kind of creative uses folks have made of "group chains" (other than up/down strokes and "humanizing" the performance of repeated notes). Anybody out there done any interesting things with this?


I first learned about this effect by doing an autopsy on some of the instruments in Kirk Hunter's Emerald library which make use of "round robin". On staccato trombone, for example, there are two different takes of each note, and playing fast staccato passages sounds incredibly realistic.

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what other uses people have for this myself.
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Orsanct
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:23 pm

I first learned about this effect by doing an autopsy on some of the instruments in Kirk Hunter's Emerald library which make use of "round robin". On staccato trombone, for example, there are two different takes of each note, and playing fast staccato passages sounds incredibly realistic.

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what other uses people have for this myself.

I thought of a couple of (possibly) interesting orchestration ideas using multiple "round robin" chains.

1. Composer George Crumb did this neat flute effect in his "Voice of the Whale." Basically, the flutist repeats the same note but creates a shimmer by alternating between normal fingerings and various harmonic fingerings. One could sample a flute playing various notes using natural fingerings and each of the available harmonic fingerings. By combining these into a chain on the EX24 I could imagine some interesting effects.

2. In similar fashion, certain woodwind instruments (saxophone comes to mind) can create "resonance tremolos" by adding and subtracting keys while playing a single note. This usually results in what sounds like changing vowels. Each of these alternate fingerings could be sampled and chained together.

Just a couple of random ideas. Others?
 
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ski
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:00 pm

I like your idea for alternate/harmonic fingerings. Along those same lines, multiple takes of overblown, staccato flute notes for doing Ian Anderson-like flute parts.

Assorted percussion instruments... but after a while, if the same note was played enough times, a pattern would likely develop. An odd number of samples would help to break that trend tho.

Picked guitar strings (whether damped or allowed to ring). Would provide an incredible amount of realism provided you had at least 4 or 5 samples to round robin with. Or maybe interspersing harmonics of those strings within the groups. That could lead to some normally unplayable but very cool sounding guitar parts.
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:44 pm

this is some very nice s#!+!!
brilliant thread!

however, when i try to assign the second 'Select By', nothing happens!?
it seems the editor indicates that it is an option but won't let me do it...
what am i doing wrong?

k
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wip
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:59 pm

eh, sorry. silly me. i got it working!
man, this must be the best forum on web!! 8)
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Orsanct
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:01 pm

Okay, see if this works for you. Let's say you want to string 3 samples so they trigger on three subsequent keystrokes.

1. Assign each sample to a different group. Give each group a unique name (or leave the default names given for each group if you prefer).

2. For group 1, make the first select by "Group: ---start---"
(Leave the second select by empty ("-----"))

3. For group 2, make the first select by "Group: name_of_1st_group"
(Leave 2nd select by empty)

4 For group 3, make the first select by "Group: name_of_2nd_group"
(Leave 2nd select by empty)


Does this make sense? You should be able to string together any number of groups in this manner.

Let me know if I need to clarify.
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:03 pm

Oops, posted too late. Glad you got it working. Let us know if you find some cool uses for this feature.
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:00 pm

I don't think I'm understanding....

Is the second and third sample played consecutively after one triggering (like trigger 1=guitar strum down, then up, then finger noise), are they each being triggered by the same key individually/consecutively (like trigger 1= guitar strum down, trigger 2 same key=guitar strum up), or something else entirely?

If I could grasp this, I'll brainstorm and throw some ideas out there for y'all, LOL!

X
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ski
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:11 pm

I think you have it right, X-man.

Here's an example:

You have three samples of spoken word: Help, Me, & Understand

                Lo/Hi
                 Key

Zone 1 = C3/C3 = "Help" and is assigned to Group 1 (named "A")
Zone 2 = C3/C3 = "Me" and is assigned to Group 2 (named "B")
Zone 3 = C3/C3 = "Understand" and is assigned to Group 3 (named "C")

Group 1 = ---start---
Group 2 = assigned to "A"
Group 3 = assigned to "B"

If you play C3 four times in a row, you'll hear, "Help, Me, Understand, Help"

I hope that helps you understand! :D
Last edited by ski on Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:39 pm

Thanks ski.

So if I'm getting it right, you could make an incredibly detailed, human sounding drum kit.

If each time you trigger a snare and it produces a hit that is the same velocity, but slightly different sounding (e.g. closer to the rim, left handed, a hint of rim contact, etc etc) that would be really cool.

X
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ski
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:58 pm

That's right. That's exactly the point of "round robin" (though we're looking for non-traditional uses for it as well).

But round robin does not produce random results. It does let you simulate randomness to a degree, which I'll explain...

If you have a snare sample -- just the one -- and you play a 16th note pattern with it, you'll very quickly hear the "machine gun effect". That's what it's called when the same sound is repeated verbatim over and over again very quickly. The ear can discern the attack as being the same every time.

If you have two snare samples which alternate (round robin in its simplest form), every other snare would be a different hit. That would improve the degree of "machine gunniness" but it would still sound like two samples. Better, but not great.

If you had three snare samples which alternated (1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3) the ear has more of a chance to get fooled by the subtle changes in timbre between the different snares. If you play a 16th note pattern (4 hits per quarter note) with three snares, there's a chance of it actually sounding more realistic than if you had four snares, because 3 doesn't divide evenly into 4.

So the way the theory goes, the more samples you have to alternate between, the more convincing the part will sound. That's the theory, and it's based on the fact that on acoustic instruments (as well as real analog synths) you can never hit a note the same way twice. The ear has a tendency to pick up and "tire" of repetition. But it will quickly discern -- and thus find musicality -- in the subtle variations that would normally occur with acoustic instruments, or even in environmental sounds.

But simulating randomness comes with a price: Time to prepare and program all those samples is one. Sample memory capacity is another potential issue (i.e., using up a ton of RAM to hold lots of variations of the same sound for any one instrument). And if you limit the number of sample variations to a low number, you'll start to hear patterns form in the timbre over the course of a bunch of repeated notes unless you resort to some programming tricks (like 3 samples for patterns of 4 notes. Or 5 or 7 samples for patterns of 4 notes).

Anyway, at this point I feel like I'm taking the joy out of this otherwise cool feature, so I'll stop.
Last edited by ski on Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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toysun
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Keymap is the tool for this

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:21 pm

Redmatica's Keymap EXS authoring program will let you create amazing round robin chains graphically.

It's a very deep program, with a bit of a learning curve, but absolutely the tool for serious sample programming.

J
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Plowman
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:03 pm

Is it rude or helpful to answer a question directed to another? While that is pondered...

No, the arrangement of groups won't do it. If you have three variations assigned to three groups, you'd set them as follows:

Bassoon staccato 1: select by: ---start---
Bassoon staccato 2: select by: Bassoon staccato 1
Bassoon staccato 3: select by: Bassoon staccato 2

This will round-robin infinitely through each group.

In theory, you can see this happening in the selected white zone boxes, which should travel up and down as the groups alternate. But sometimes the visual feedback falters even when the round-robin still occurs.

Keymap has an excellent way to visualize the process as you build your patch.

It's best to learn this method with very distinct groups, like a stac to a pluck to a bow, to get a sense of EXS' behavior. By contrast, the nuances of VSL variations can be so subtle, you keep hitting the key and asking yourself if it's working.

This method usually uses velocities determined by zone, then all velocities of a given iteration assigned to one group.
 
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:06 pm

Oy. Post delay. ski's description is more colorful, and he has a dawgie.
 
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ski
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Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:16 pm

:D

Yup, that's my boy dawgie. His name is Boing. And we both liked your description too!
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