Muting MIDI Tracks Causes Logic to Lose Its Own Tempo/Sync?

[teknosmoker]

I just had to replace the HD in my Powermac G5 (Early 2005), reinstalled system software and also updated from Logic 7.1 to Logic 7.2.3. Since then, I've noticed strange behavior that I'd never encountered before.

 

 

OK - I create a sequence in Logic, using only hardware synths as my sound sources. I have not tracked any audio, nor am I using any plugins or softsynths. Plug-in delay compensation is set to "off" and Logic's sync is set to "internal". I am using two Emagic Unitor 8 MK2 MIDI interfaces.

-Here's the problem --- As the sequence is playing, if I mute or unmute individual MIDI tracks for my external synths, Logic "hiccups/stutters", losing it's own internal sync for a moment! Hitting the mute button on a MIDI track while a sequence is playing actually affects the tempo of playback?!

 

I had never experienced this behavior before in previous versions of Logic (been using Logic since version 4.x). The ability to mute/unmute MIDI tracks is paramount to my style of composition. I generally compose "the meat" of my song, then mute and unmute parts to help construct the arrangement (this is especially annoying when I am using external tempo-based FX units and everything becomes a "jumble" for a few seconds anytime I mute something).

 

I hope this is not a new "broken feature" introduced by the latest incarnation of Logic. Has anybody else experienced this or can you tell me what I may be overlooking?

 

Best regards,

-teknosmoker

 

Logic Pro 7.2.3

UAD, Waves & URS plugins

Powermac Dual 2.0 G5

3 GB RAM

2 x Unitor8 MK2

[teknosmoker]

I've just discovered that to make matters worse, it's not only muting tracks that causes the MIDI to hiccup. Just about ANY input into Logic from the computer keyboard cases the problem Even if I press a number to switch screensets!

 

The problem even exists with just a single external sampler (E6400 Ultra) connected only to the Unitor 8's MIDI out (with nothing connected to any of the Unitor 8's inputs).

 

No error messages when I press the mute buttons on MIDI tracks, only off-tempo notes. If I click the mute button of a MIDI track (or just switch screensets)at let's say, an 1/8 or 1/16 note count, my 4/4 kick drum sounds like a pair of tennis shoes in the dryer.

 

I installed the latest Emagic drivers, downloaded from Apple today from the following URL:

 

http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/emagic/

 

I even tried installing the Unitor 8 Control today (never had the need for it before) and used it to filter out MTC to all channels. No help with the timing problem (though it's nice that I can now stop Logic from sending clock everywhere).

 

Can anyone help me out with this one? I've exhausted just virtually all the possible solutions to this problem and I need to work. I am completely at a loss here...

[teknosmoker]

I though that perhaps I'd isolated the issue down to some corrupt data, but was wrong.

 

AAAAARRRHHHH!!!

 

OK - It's not corrupt CC data causing this. I trashed all Logic's prefs as well as the autoload, ran the Setup Assistant, named my instruments in the Environment and was able to reproduce the problem with a brand new song.

 

For the new "test" song I created, here's what I did.

 

I am using a Kurzweil K2000 as my MIDI controller.

 

Set my locators to cycle a simple 4 bar sequence.

Created a drum pattern using my TR-909 as a sound source (all sequencing done from Logic). All note data was entered via a Matrix Edit window.

Created a 1 baseline using my SH-101(Played the K2000 to record the MIDI sequence).

Created a 3 note chord pattern with my Juno 106 (Played the K2000 to record the MIDI sequence).

 

 

If I mute a track or switch screensets, Logic begins to stutter again! If I go into the Event list and delete the C-Press data between all the notes on the bassline, the problem goes away.

 

Can somebody please help me with this? I'm pulling my hair out!

 

Kind regards,

teknosmoker

 

Logic Pro 7.2.3

UAD, Waves & URS plugins

Powermac Dual 2.0 G5

3 GB RAM

2 x Unitor8 MK2

[teknosmoker]

Anybody........?

[shivermetimbers]

What channels are you using to record the Midi? (Audio Instruments or GM)

 

The first thing I would do is to make sure Logic is working right without the externals toys.

 

Start with a fresh new song template.

 

Use either the General Midi sounds or an internal synth sound. Does a hiccup occur when you mute?

 

I noticed some strange things with the midi output (in the transport section) when hitting the mute button.

 

For example, On Audio Instrument 1 in the Track mixer a Midi output code is sent out(1 E1-127). Only on that track, no other AI tracks sent a code. Yet in the Arrange window, Mute on AI 1 did NOT send out the code.

 

My recommendation would be to try everything within Logic with no external devices.

 

Secondly, I like to use the General Midi when controlling external devices.

 

Try using Midi in one direction at a time. In other words, have your midi out of the keyboard going into your Midi interface and do not have the Midi out of the interface connected to anything. when you are ready to play back, change the connections so that your midi device uses only the output to your keyboard midi input.

[teknosmoker]

Thanks for the response.

 

I use neither Audio Instrument, nor GM. I am using MIDI instrument channels to record onto. I am using real hardware synths and samplers connected to my two Emagic Unitor8 MKII MIDI interfaces.

 

Yes, I tried your other suggestions as well. If I create a new song completely within Logic using only VSTi's it plays back fine. Unfortunately, the problem always reappears when I assign the VSTi tracks to "real" external hardware instruments. I usually don't use virtual instruments, as I prefer the sound of hardware synths and samplers.

 

Without even creating a new song (just using an existing one with the aforementioned problems), assigning all the hardware MIDI tracks to Logic' sown internal virtual instruments makes the hiccup go away.

 

I have also noticed that all my old Logic songs prior to upgrading to 7.2.x are now exhibiting the same "hiccuping" behavior when I mute a MID track or change screensets.

 

The only way I have been able to "work around" the problem with any new songs I write is to turn off "transmit channel pressure" in my controller keyboard (Kurzweil K2000VP). But doesn't that defeat the point of having synths (both soft and hardware) that respond to aftertouch messages? It seems ridiculous that the "workaround" of turning off channel-pressure messages being transmitted by MIDI controllers, will prevent me from using patches (that I've spent years creating/compiling) in synths that have channel-pressure triggered modulation destinations.

 

Before upgrading from 7.1 to 7.2.3, I did not have this problem with Logic Pro. I have not changed any hardware in my setup. Why would previous versions of Logic be able to handle sending and receiving large amounts MIDI CC data over MANY tracks without a problem and Logic Pro 7.2 can't handle a couple of external synths and a drum machine (only being used as a sound module) properly during the compositional process?

 

I'm hoping that I've overlooked something simple. I've been troubleshooting for days a while now and have posted my hardware MIDI problem to 4 different Logic forums. I haven't gotten much of a response. I miss the days of being able to communicate directly with Emagic about problems like these. If I call Apple for help they'll charge me hundreds (literally) just to speak with them about Logic Pro..

 

Thoughts on what else could fix this?

[shivermetimbers]

You are using Logic to record and playback the Midi data from your External Keys.

Part of my suggestion is to use a General Midi track to record this info.

 

When it is time to record the Audio, have the General Midi send the Info back to your keys, and the Audio from your keys can be recorded on an Audio channel.

 

That may help, but I don't see why this is occurring because of the mute button.

 

After answering your post the first time I notice a few hiccups while playing in Logic (nothing to do with the mute though).

 

When you hit the mute button What values (if any) show up in the midi out of the Transport window?

[teknosmoker]

I am only using 1 external master keyboard (Kurzweil K2000VP) to control an extensive collection of rackmount vintage synths, sound modules and drum machines (both analog and digital) through Logic. In order for me to hear what I am playing, the MIDI must pass through Logic, which then routes the data to whatever synth/module I have chosen in the Arrange window. Many of the synths/modules don't have keyboards and/or don't send MIDI (Like my samplers , Yamaha TX81Z, Waldorf Microwave 1, TR-909, Roland SH-101 connected to my Unitor8 via a Kenton Pro-Solo MIDI to CV converter, Arp Odyssey etc..). Therefore I cannot use a General MIDI track to record data for external hardware MIDI tracks. Here is another reason why I cannot do so:

 

-- Let's say I am recording a MIDI track with my Kurzweil as the controller and my EMU E6400 Ultra sampler as the sound module. I need to hear the specific sounds of the programs I have created in the EMU (I don't use presets) to capture the performance. These are not General MIDI sounds (they could be sound FX, custom drum kits or experimental patches). The EMU sampler also uses extensive modulation routings. I might be using a program I've created in the sampler that uses the mod-wheel to control a filter, channel pressure to control pitch and a control pedal to modulate the sample start time -- all simultaneously in real-time), I need to hear the performance in order to record it as MIDI.

 

BTW - Recording to a General MIDI track does not make a difference. As a test, I tried doing so. As soon as I redirect the sound to external modules, the "hiccups" continue.

 

In answer to your last question -- When turn the the mute button on, I get a message like "1 A1 127" (the actual note number varies, dependent upon the track - each MIDI track is different). When I turn the mute off, I just get an "off" message. Also, this MIDI "hiccup" occurs not only by muting tracks, but also by switching screensets and soloing tracks.

 

What really puzzles me is that if I open the exact same projects that I wrote in Logic Pro 7.1 (which had zero MIDI glitches/hiccups with external MIDI devices) they now have these newly introduced hiccups in Logic 7.2.

 

I've been using Logic for over 7 years and never encountered anything like this.

 

Does anyone have any other ideas as to why Logic Pro 7.2.3 is causing these MIDI glitches that did not exist in 7.1?

[fader8]

Tekno,

 

How are your Unitor8's connected to your Mac?

 

If you have both of them connected seperately with USB, . . . that's bad and may cause these kinds of problems. The driver only supports multiple units when they're daisy-chained using the RS-422 ports. I have close to the same rig, Unitor8 and AMT8. Kurzweil too!

 

I hope that's it cuz otherwise I'm at a loss. . .

 

Well, you could try just hooking up one unit at a time and see if the problem goes away. Maybe a bad unit.

 

BTW, those mysterious MIDI messages that output when you select mute, etc., are for controlling the display on your control surface, eg turning the mute light on.

[teknosmoker]

The first Unitor8 is connected via USB to my G5. The second Unitor8 is daisy-chained to the first via a Mac serial RS-422 cable.

 

I tried flip-flopping the Unitor8's -- no difference. I also tried just plugging in just the first Unitor8 alone - same problem. I will try plugging in the second one alone and see what happens (though I suspect I will get the same results).

 

What else could be causing this behavior?

[fader8]

What else could be causing this behavior?

 

Strange! Sounds like you've eliminated all the possibilities of the usual stuff, midi loops, bad interface, drivers, pref's . .

 

I'm sure you've tried other USB ports, eh? It just smels like a hardware problem to me. The fact that it goes away when you turn off channel pressure sounds like the MIDI bandwidth is being choked.

 

When you replaced the hard drive and reloaded the system, did you reset the PRAM? Do you have one of those cheap USB PCI cards to try?

[teknosmoker]

What, from a hardware standpoint, do you think could be wrong?

 

 

I tried all the different USB ports, zapped the PRAM, reset Open Firmware, reset NV-RAM, reset the PMU, repaired permissions, reformatted the HD, ran Disk First Aid & the Apple Hardware Test. I've also tried each of the Unitor8 MKII interfaces individually one at a time (no daisy-chaining) & I still have the same problems.

 

I don't have a USB PCI card, but even if I did, all my slots are full (damn Apple for only putting 3 slots in this machine) and I cannot afford a Magma chassis right now. I do have one of the last G5's that have normal PCI slots (Early 2005 Dual 2.0 G5), so eventually I might be able to find a cheaper chassis second hand (need more UAD's....need more UAD's....).

 

But right now, I need to get this MIDI issue sorted out so that I can work.

[ski]

OK... let's cut through the MIDI and Mac voodoo...

 

First of all... there is no need (IMO) to re-run the setup assistant to try to get Logic to work properly in the event of a strange problem. Trashing prefs? Yes, sometimes, but I'm also not convinced that this does any good whatsoever in many situations. It can't hurt, though, save for the fact that you should save a copy to re-claim your key commands. Also note that in the even you use EXS instruments that your preferences for EXS will have to be reset, as well as all of your other general Logic preferences (not song prefs -- they're saved with a song).

 

Second of all, from what I can tell there is generally no need to zap the PRAM, reset firmware, repair permissions, or anything like that in the event of a weird MIDI problem.

 

Also, there is no need to use General MIDI instruments as an alternative method to troubleshooting this problem.

 

Do not call Apple and pay stoopit money to speak to a "pro" (ha ha). They don't support the Unitor anyway.

 

And there is no such thing as "corrupt" CC data.

 

Now, to the situation at hand... unless I missed something, you stated two definitive problems:

 

1. muting tracks or switching screensets causes MIDI (timing) to hiccup

2. filtering out (or removing) aftertouch causes the problem to go away

 

I would recommend that you revert to 7.1.1. If indeed all you changed about your system was an update from 7.1.1 to 7.2.3, I'd say "there's your problem" -- you updated". Not always a good thing to do unless there's a highly specific reason to do so.

 

But, if you don't want to do that, to troubleshoot the problem you really need a MIDI monitor, preferably one that runs on a second computer so you can monitor the output of your various Unitor ports when you mute a track. If Logic is not outputting data (like reset data) when you mute a track -- and it should not -- then there's some kind of incompatibility between your system and Logic 7.2.3. Revert.

 

So unless there's something about 7.2.3 that you absolutely MUST have to work (like a specific bug fix or new feature), the ONLY downside to reverting to 7.1.1 is that you won't be able to open your 7.2.3-composed songs in 7.1.1. The files are not backward compatible.

 

That's my advice. Avoid the voodoo and revert.

[shivermetimbers]

Logic is working fine without the external toys.

The problem goes away by eliminating the channel pressure.

 

Does this problem occur on your MBP? Also, did you try the 7.1.1 after the repair?

 

It sounds like you are 'stuck' with having to use 7.2.3 and reverting back isn't an option for you.

 

Would using Automation be of any use to you?

[ski]

Check your RESET messages (prefs > MIDI > Reset). My gut is telling me that when you mute tracks that Logic is sending out an aftertouch reset message (which is what I was suggesting the MIDI monitor for). Even if it does this (this is all hypothetical), we're talking about two bytes of data -- $A0 $00. That shouldn't affect anything.

 

This situation is absolutely and totally bizarre and should not happen, particularly when switching screen sets. That's another out-there one...

 

7.1.1 --> 7.2.3 = change in behavior? Revert... If it's all MIDI stuff you're doing you can export MIDI files to get your data back into 7.1.1. And if you have automation, while it's a pain in the ass, you can move all of that data to regions and salvage that too.

[fader8]

What, from a hardware standpoint, do you think could be wrong?

 

At this point? Nothing. Something is putting Logic's MIDI engine on it's heels. The thing most capable of doing that is the MIDI driver. An interface or USB port malfunction, or the improper recognition of these at the most basic hardware level, can cause the driver to malfumction resulting in strange Logic behaviour.

 

But this doesn't seem to be the case as you've pretty well covered all the bases now. Reverting back to 7.1 as Ski suggests is the next logical step. If that works it certainly eliminates the possibility of any hardware issues. It doesn't however, solve the mystery. Your setup is very similar to mine, (and Ski's too for that matter) so we know this "can" work.

 

 

Then again, and I've become a little too fond of saying this, . . . anything can go wrong.

 

Good luck,

Randall