Best way to record I/O plugin

[ted_manzie]

What you need to do is route each aux channel containing an i/o plug to another bus/aux channel, and you record the output of that second bus/aux.

 

I have no idea why that works but it does.

 

If you need more detail let me know and I’ll screen grab my setup when I’m in the studio tomorrow.

[woodfoot]

Thanks for your reply. I’m aware of that but that’s not what I’m trying to do

 

 

I need to be able to send a number and variety of tracks / bus’ / aux’ and outputs to the summing mixer and monitor them in real time back on an aux in logic

[ted_manzie]

As far as I can tell In principle I’m doing what you are trying to achieve, the difference being I have various items of outboard effects units, whereas you have 16 channels on a summing mixer. But the signal routing is the same - I send varying tracks to my effects and monitor (and record) the return in logic’s mixer.

 

I also use aux groups and send from those to my outboard, which I believe is what you want to do? I insert plugins at various points and all seems to work fine - monitors in real time and records to a track with no sync issues.

 

I think I need more detail in what you’re trying to achieve but I’ll post up screenshots of my setup later anyway in case it helps.

[ted_manzie]

Ok here you go! I've tried to set it up how I think you may want it - sending a couple of audio channels to a group before processing that group with outboard (group is using a prefade send to a bus).

 

It looks complicated, and to be honest it is and I don't know why it has to be like this, but it works for me - monitor in realtime with no latency issues and record the outboard return into the arrange page also with no latency issues. Note - you can realtime bounce without recording the outboard return into the arrange page, but I like to have everything recorded into the arrange page..

[woodfoot]

Thanks for spending the time to do this

 

Yeah on my system if I'm using a hardware insert as a processor this works as you have shown [the only difference being that I wouldn't use a send I would route the output of the channel to the bus] and the latency is calculated all within the bus like you say. But in this instance it is sent and returned all within the same plugin

 

However in the way I'm describing there are 17 instances of the I/O plugin

 

16 send to the separate inputs of the summing mixer and 1 to return the mixer on a different aux. I can't return them within the same plugin as I would then have 16 returns of the summing mixer.

Therefore it's not calculated within 1 plugin and this appears to be where the problem is coming from

 

it has made me think I should try maybe using 15-16 with both the send and return on though and seeing if that helps

 

I'll have a look today and report back

[ted_manzie]

Ok I see, so your summing mixer has one stereo return for all 16 input channels.

I had a quick look and I think the solution is this > for your summing mixer main out you set up a stereo bus/aux with no input, insert the i/o plug (i/o plug has no output, and has input from your summing mixer stereo out), route this aux/bus output to the input of another aux/bus as described in previous post. That seems to work here although I can't replicate your exact setup of course so I might be missing something.

 

The only issue I found was that you have to have an output from the i/o plug to ping the latency, and then remove the output after you get a reading.

 

By the way, I make major use of the 'hide' button to tidy up my mixer/aux channels otherwise it gets really ridiculous

[woodfoot]

Yeah this is how I have it and it works fine for individual channels but if that routing goes via a bus or aux with any latency inducing plugin it goes out of sync.

 

It's something to do with what redbaron was talking about in the post i quoted

[ted_manzie]

I can't reproduce that. I can put plugins on the 'summing return' aux/bus no problem, route the bus to another with more plugins, it all stays in sync. I think I need to see a screen grab of your setup so I can understand the issue.

[woodfoot]

Yeah I'll do some screen shots at the studio later so I can show you what it's doing.

 

Thanks for your time so far though

[ted_manzie]

Yeah I'll do some screen shots at the studio later so I can show you what it's doing.

 

Thanks for your time so far though

 

Did you solve this?

[asinla]

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. I am going through the whole shebang at the moment trying to figure out the best way to process various channels with new outboard gear. This thread has been very helpful.

[dereksamuelreese]

@RedBaron you are a genius, I picked Recording an I/O Plugin from an Aux - Method 2, absolutely perfect, you saved me, a million thank you's brother.

[dereksamuelreese]

On 8/9/2015 at 5:14 PM, RedBaron said:

I hit the quote button to try to answer this a couple of times, but realised there was some holes in my knowledge. So I went away and thoroughly tested recording (the return signal) from I/O plugins (over 200 test recordings!).

Here's how I think it works, depending on which type of channel strip you have the I/O plugin inserted on. Let's start off with an easy one...

Recording an I/O Plugin from an Audio or Instrument channel strip

Simply route the Audio or Instrument channel strip to a bus via it's send, and use another audio track to record from that bus. You can have latency inducing plugins before and after the I/O plugin in you want, but if you want to record a completely *dry* return signal, you'll have to bypass any plugins inserted after the I/O plugin.

With audio/instrument channel strips, you cannot record direct from the inputs you've set in the I/O plugin. You must record through a bus, or you'll get recordings that are a minimum of a roundtrip early.

Recording an I/O Plugin from an Output

Recording a dry return signal from an I/O plugin that's inserted onto an output channel strip only works* if the following tough restrictions are met:

1. You've correctly tested and set your Recording Delay in Preferences > Audio. (see Recording Delay Test)
    
    
2. You record direct from the same inputs that you've configured in the I/O plugin. You must record the return signal direct from inputs, you cannot record through a bus.
    
    
3. The I/O plugin must be the first latency inducing plugin on the output. Also, you can't have any tracks that route signals through a latency inducing plugin on an aux before the output hosting the I/O plugin. In other words, all signals currently routed to that output must be latency free prior to the output's I/O plugin. And bypassing any latency inducing plugins prior to the I/O plugin won't help, you have to completely remove them. This is why recording an I/O plugin on an output is so restrictive.
    
   Latency inducing plugins on audio or instrument channel strips are fine, they won't affect recording alignment. Latency inducing plugins inserted on to the output after the I/O plugin also have no effect on recording alignment. You just can't have any aux/output plugin latency before the I/O plugin.
    
    
    
4. The latency through an output's I/O plugin must be exactly the same as your normal roundtrip, which probably means you can only record the return signal sample accurately when using zero latency outboard (i.e. analogue). If the I/O plugin's latency is higher than a roundtrip you'll get late recordings, and if less than a roundtrip you'll get early recordings.
    
   * If you don't mind a small recording misalignment (due to say 1 - 2 ms of digital processing latency), then you can also record the return from non-analogue outboard that has AD/DA conversion and processing latency. It really depends on wether you want sample accuracy or not and how high the outboard processing latency is.

I personally never put I/O plugins or other latency inducing plugins on outputs anyway, because it's caused me too many (seemingly) unpredictable problems in the past. I've just included it here for completeness, and because the restrictions above can also sometimes apply when recording from an I/O plugin on an Aux:

Recording an I/O Plugin from an Aux - Method 1 (restrictive, record from inputs)

This method also allows you to record a completely dry I/O plugin return signal direct from the same inputs set in the I/O plugin. But exactly the same restrictions (1-4 above) that apply to recording the return signal from an output's I/O plugin, also apply to recording from an aux's I/O plugin (unless you use the easier method 2 below).

So, if you want to use this method, the roundtrip through the aux's I/O plugin must be exacty the same as your normal roundtrip (4), and you can't have any other latency inducing plugins in the signal's path before the aux's I/O plugin (3), etc.

The only real advantage I can see with this method is that it allows you to record the dry signal when you have plugins inserted after the I/O plugin, and you don't want to bypass those plugins (see below).

Recording an I/O Plugin from an Aux - Method 2 (almost foolproof, record via bus)

Simply, send (or output) to a bus directly from the aux that the I/O plugin is inserted on, and record from that bus*.

This is much easier than method 1, because you don't need to worry if the signals you're routing through the aux's I/O plugin have already incurred latency prior to reaching the aux; and you can also freely insert latency inducing plugins before the I/O plugin (on the same aux). Also, you don't need to worry if the trip through the I/O plugin isn't an exact roundtrip, so can also sample accurately record (digital) outboard that has processing latency.

If you want to record a completely dry return signal, just bypass any plugins inserted onto the aux after the I/O plugin (if any).

* You must feed the bus from the aux channel strip that the I/O plugin is inserted on, using the send (or output). You can't feed the bus from an input monitored Audio Track (i.e. Input > Bus), and you can't feed the bus from another (Input) Aux, and you can't feed the bus from an Input Object. This method only seems to work if you feed the bus from the actual aux the I/O plugin is on - this had me baffled for a while.

Realtime Bouncing

For every test I ran, I also soloed the aux or output and did a realtime bounce. Perfectly accurate every single time.

The problem with realtime bouncing, apart from not being able to multi-track record, is that you can only get a dry recording if you bypass all plugins after the I/O plugin, including plugins on later auxes and outputs.

But, if you're pressed for time and need to print the I/O plugin's return when all other methods are out of sync, it'll give you sample accurate recordings every time. They certainly wrote the Bounce code very well.

--------

So that's my current understanding of the subject.

Hope this helps. I think I elaborated.

dD

Is this correct ?

 

[dereksamuelreese]

I made a mistake lol 

I have an audio track with a kick drum already recorded and now I send that track to a bus, use the i/o insert to process my kick through outboard gear, then create another audio track with that bus’s input.

works beautifully with all tracks lining up.

RedBaron ROCKS

[noisyneil]

Is this correct?

Edited February 26 by noisyneil