Multitimbral struggles

[mysticfm]

I've been trying to get a template setup for LPX 10.3.2 that uses multitimbral instances of Kontakt, since some testing I did showed there were memory use and loading time benefits to doing so.  But I've been stopped in my tracks twice now, and I am wondering if there is something I am missing, or if LPX just isn't up to this challenge.

 

The first time, I created multiple multitimbral tracks all at once, using the New Tracks dialog.  I selected "Multi-timbral" with the needed number of parts specified in the dialog, and selected a multi-output instance of the Kontakt plugin.  This gave me the tracks and channels and allowed me to record on each ... but selecting a channel in the mixer would often only select the first track in the instrument in the Tracks pane, and when it came time to try applying automation, Logic didn't seem able to connect the channels with their tracks either and always wanted to create a separate 2nd track for the automation (which then never worked right).

 

So now I have tried the other method I know of, which is to create a single multi-timbral track in the New Tracks dialog (selecting "Multi-timbral" but specifying just one part, and still selecting a multi-output Kontakt instance).  Then I clicked on the plus sign on the created mixer channel to add a 2nd channel, and then pressed ^T with that channel selected to create a corresponding track in the Track view, and repeated those steps for as many additional multi-timbral tracks as I needed for that Kontakt instance.  This appears to work much better with regards to Logic selecting the right track or channel when I select its counterpart, and also allows me to record automation on whatever channel and track I have selected, in the same fashion that I could with standalone tracks.  All good so far ... until I noticed that none of the tracks I added with ^T have a Record Enable button.  It appears I can still record on those tracks as long as I have them selected and press Record on the keyboard or controller, but I find this a little disconcerting (as I rely upon that for a visual confirmation that I am recording on the right track), and now I'm worried about what else might not work right when I set my template up in this fashion.  (I already know that Solo, Mute and Freeze buttons on the tracks are useless with either of these multi-timbral solutions, so I was not entirely happy even before this latest round of discouragement.)

 

Am I overlooking a better way to do this, one that would make Logic actually behave in the fashion I would expect?  Or am I limited to using one or the other imperfect solution (in which case I'll have to go without record buttons, because not being able to do proper automation was a deal-breaker)?

[Studio162A]

This is from the Kontakt website and has helped me:

 

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/209558589-Using-KONTAKT-5-as-a-Multi-timbral-Instrument-in-Logic-Pro-X

 

Jim

[mysticfm]

This is from the Kontakt website and has helped me:

 

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/209558589-Using-KONTAKT-5-as-a-Multi-timbral-Instrument-in-Logic-Pro-X

 

Jim

 

That was kind of a strange read - not really anything different from what I have tried, but it seemed like they were mixing together both of the approaches I described, as well as just accepting the creation of even more aux tracks for automation. Not sure what, if anything, I can take away from that … seemed a little messy to me. Nonetheless, thanks much for the response!

 

I'm leaning toward using my 2nd method and just accepting the loss of the Record Enable buttons. I did notice that Record Enable buttons still light up and function on my control surface for all of the tracks, so perhaps I can get used to relying upon the external controller more than the screen.

 

I also am less concerned about my having missed something since reading an Ask.Audio article today quoting an Apple engineer as saying they don't put any effort into improving or fixing multitimbral mode because they consider it a dying technology that is rendered moot by more powerful computers. Trouble with that idea is that, from what I can tell, one would pretty much have to have a fully-speced Mac Pro for it to be true. My i7 iMac is far from a wimpy computer, but still it maxes out at 32GB of RAM, and even using the multitimbral Kontakt instances and all samples purged, a 200 track orchestral template uses over 10GB before I've recorded a single note. If I was to use standalone tracks like Apple suggests, that base size zooms up to over 16GB, leaving even less space for samples in RAM ... plus, such a template takes about twice as long to load.

[cleamon]

I finally gave up trying to use multi-timbral in logic for these very reasons.  Even using the first method (where you get rec/mute/solo buttons on each track) you'll notice they are NOT independent.  That is, when you mute one, they all mute, move the fader they all move, etc..  You'll probably not hear it here, but logic's multi-timbral just doesn't work right (logical).  I've used other DAWs (primarily Digital Performer) and can assign ANY track to ANY VI on ANY midi channel and have total independent control.  Logic's implementation is pretty much useless.

[mysticfm]

I finally gave up trying to use multi-timbral in logic for these very reasons.  Even using the first method (where you get rec/mute/solo buttons on each track) you'll notice they are NOT independent.  That is, when you mute one, they all mute, move the fader they all move, etc..  You'll probably not hear it here, but logic's multi-timbral just doesn't work right (logical).  I've used other DAWs (primarily Digital Performer) and can assign ANY track to ANY VI on ANY midi channel and have total independent control.  Logic's implementation is pretty much useless.

It is a struggle, to be sure, and there doesn't seem to be a wholly satisfactory solution.  Nonetheless, the DAW you know is always better (read: more useful in practice) than the one you don't, so I don't have any plans of making a switch right now.  Until (if ever) I can afford to get a Mac Pro with 64GB or more of RAM and too many cores to count on one's fingers, the only way I can possibly get my work done is with a multi-timbral, purged template, so I'll just have to do the best I can with whatever Logic will give me.

[cleamon]

I finally gave up trying to use multi-timbral in logic for these very reasons.  Even using the first method (where you get rec/mute/solo buttons on each track) you'll notice they are NOT independent.  That is, when you mute one, they all mute, move the fader they all move, etc..  You'll probably not hear it here, but logic's multi-timbral just doesn't work right (logical).  I've used other DAWs (primarily Digital Performer) and can assign ANY track to ANY VI on ANY midi channel and have total independent control.  Logic's implementation is pretty much useless.

It is a struggle, to be sure, and there doesn't seem to be a wholly satisfactory solution.  Nonetheless, the DAW you know is always better (read: more useful in practice) than the one you don't, so I don't have any plans of making a switch right now.  Until (if ever) I can afford to get a Mac Pro with 64GB or more of RAM and too many cores to count on one's fingers, the only way I can possibly get my work done is with a multi-timbral, purged template, so I'll just have to do the best I can with whatever Logic will give me.

I hear you.  I used DP for more than 10 years, switched to LP9/LPX about 2 years ago and NOT looking back.  For the kind of stuff I do, LPX beats them all (and I've tried them all), hands down.  My eventual solution for the multi-timbral stuff (when needed) was to host the VIs in MainStage (and/or dedicated hosts from the VI's maker) and use IAC and Soundcloud. 

[Wolfie2112]

Honestly, you are better off using one instance of Kontakt per instrument. Logic also runs more efficiently this way from my experience; plus you'll have total control over each track without dealing with a big mess of Aux tracks.

 

Ultimately, I recommend hosting your multi-timbral VI's inside VEPro, you can just mix your instruments inside the instance and Logic perform a lot better (better core distribution).

[mysticfm]

Honestly, you are better off using one instance of Kontakt per instrument. Logic also runs more efficiently this way from my experience; plus you'll have total control over each track without dealing with a big mess of Aux tracks.

 

Ultimately, I recommend hosting your multi-timbral VI's inside VEPro, you can just mix your instruments inside the instance and Logic perform a lot better (better core distribution).

On the first recommendation, I'd always thought the same thing, but I reached the point where I had to try to create a large orchestral template in order to facilitate my work, and so I did a direct comparison of a multi-timbral setup to one with standalone Kontakt instruments.  The multi-timbral setup saved me close to half of the RAM footprint (with purged instrument samples in both cases), and also loaded far more quickly ... it was enough to be the difference between being able to use such a template and not, so I switched.

Unfortunately I won't use VEPro because I won't touch iLok with a ten foot pole.

[Wolfie2112]

Honestly, you are better off using one instance of Kontakt per instrument. Logic also runs more efficiently this way from my experience; plus you'll have total control over each track without dealing with a big mess of Aux tracks.

 

Ultimately, I recommend hosting your multi-timbral VI's inside VEPro, you can just mix your instruments inside the instance and Logic perform a lot better (better core distribution).

 

Unfortunately I won't use VEPro because I won't touch iLok with a ten foot pole.

It's not iLok, it's Elicenser (still a dongle, though). IMO, VEPro is an amazing tool for any composer, especially for those with large templates. If you ever get the chance, try the demo.

[mysticfm]

 

Unfortunately I won't use VEPro because I won't touch iLok with a ten foot pole.

It's not iLok, it's Elicenser (still a dongle, though). IMO, VEPro is an amazing tool for any composer, especially for those with large templates. If you ever get the chance, try the demo.

 

iLok, eLicensor ... I often get them confused, because they both repel me equally. I have every reason to believe that VEPro would be a terrific tool to have at my disposal, and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase it ... if only they would adopt a less onerous method of protection.

 

By the way, so far my template of individually created Aux tracks is working pretty well, even without the record buttons (the absence of which I am quickly adjusting to).

[Ashermusic]

The E-Licenser works fine. Don't let philosophy overrule practicality.

[Wolfie2112]

I have never had a dongle fail on me, and I wouldn't let that hold me back from an incredible piece of software.

[valve]

I'm in the weeds of this multi-timbral stuff myself and thoroughly overwhelmed. I've set up 13 multi-timbral instruments out of a single Kontakt instance in the way NI's support article describes. Would someone be able to please explain a few things for me?

 

1. What is the difference between the tracks in the Tracks Area and those in the Mixer?

 

2. In the mixer, if I check View > All Tracks with Same Channel Strip/Instrument, a second set of tracks corresponding to the same instruments show up. So we have 13 tracks called "Inst 4" and a second set of tracks called "Aux 2" through "Aux 13". The "Inst 4" tracks in the mixer have the color coding I set in the tracks area, but the track names I created for them aren't mirrored. What is the deal with that? Or, again, what is the difference between what I'm seeing in the tracks area and what is in the mixer?

 

3. In the tracks area, I can right-click a track and select Reassign Track > Mixer > Aux > [the aux track it corresponds to] instead of the Software Instrument it's currently assigned to (which is a big list of the same name "Inst 4"). What does this do?

 

4. What is this "Inst 4"? I see in the Track inspector that is the "Channel", separate from the "MIDI Channel" which is consecutive for each track. What does just "Channel" mean, exactly? It seems like some weird hybrid between a bus or aux – a pathway instead of an object – and an object. Which is also the title of all the multi-timbral Instrument tracks in the mixer, which seem to be directly the same tracks in the Tracks area with different names. (So confused).

 

5. When View > All Tracks with Same Channel Strip/Instrument is not checked (so we just see the Aux tracks), there is still one track in the mixer that mirrors the last of my multi-timbral tracks in the Tracks Area, exactly how those "Inst 4" tracks do when I have that view option checked. I see it's the track that's hosting the Kontakt instance as an instrument. But it's also acting as one of the audio routing tracks. Isn't there supposed to be some kind of separation between that type of track and these Aux tracks meant for mixing and automation?

 

I've looked through the manual, google searches, Youtube videos, and searched this forum, and I am still really lost on this. I don't understand what is what, how things are routed, why things don't match up between the track view and mixer, how things are supposed to be treated, why Mute and Solo and Volume work either all at the same time or separately depending on what track or view you click it on, etc. Either I'm very slow, or this is a poorly designed and poorly explained structure that Apple has set up, which is unusual from my experience with Logic. I would seriously appreciate anyone who can clear all this craziness up for me.

[Ashermusic]

You seem to be confused about the basic aspects of Logic Pro's architecture. Like a console, everything flows through channel strips.

 

When you create a software instrument, it is flowing through a software instrument channel strip. You can have many tracks flowing through one, e.g. Inst 4. They can be assigned to any MIDI channel to choose or all the same. They can be viewed in the Mixer with the setting you discovered, In the Track List, they can be turned off/on individually with the power buttons if you have them enabled.

[Dewdman42]

I personally think the best approach is to create a multi-instrument object in the environment and route up to 16 tracks through that to your single Kontakt instance. When I get to my computer I will post more detailed instructions.

 

The new track multi-Timbral option does not do it that way, it rather creates fader objects in the environment that all point to the same underlying Inst. I’m not sure why they decided to do it that way but if you use the environment multi-instrument, you will get completely separate track headers and you will see midi channels in the mixer window for each track of midi and you can still use the + button to add aux channels for separating all the audio from kontakt

[Eric Cardenas]

I would use aux channels with the multi-out version Kontakt.

Yo can use MIDI directly on the aux channel strips too.

[Dewdman42]

Wow I did not know we could put midi regions on the AUX tracks and have it route the right way by midi channel. That's great... Thanks Eric.. Too bad the add new track wizard doesn't do it that way automatically. Another advantage of that approach is that the inst and aux channels can be added as tracks in a stack, then its easy to colapse or expand them as a group in both the arrange view and the mixer view. Also it can be saved as a patch this way.

[Eric Cardenas]

Exactly!

And you can set the MIDI channels directly on the AUX tracks too.

[Dewdman42]

Yep I saw that. Definitely the way I will work from now on..thanks for pointing out that midi regions can be on those AUX tracks!

[Eric Cardenas]

You're welcome Dewd!

[Dewdman42]

I guess the only advantage i could potentially see to using the multi-instrument obj method, is if you need a bit more midi control, like able to mute or solo the actual midi tracks before hitting even hitting the multi-timbral instrument, or adjust CC7 using the faders in the mixer or from the track headers, before hitting instrument.

 

The AUX track method causes those faders to be related to the AUX audio levels..which is actually fine for me

 

Just thinking out loud...

[Eric Cardenas]

Yes, that's spot on.

It totally depends on your workflow and what you are trying to achieve.

Both Aux channels and Software Instrument channels are routing audio through the channel strip.

[Dewdman42]

Eric, looks like with this AUX midi track approach there is no track freezing available on the track header? Am I missing something or does this approach prevent us from being able to freeze. Actually since all multi-timbral situations run through AUX channels, then maybe that is always the case, no easy freezing, have to manually route to a normal audio track and record I guess..bleh. What am I missing?

 

This also brings my mind to wondering about how plugin delay compensation is handled since audio is going through AUX channels which as I recall aren't pre-rendered, but handled more like live audio. I guess that's always the case with multi-timbral instruments then?

Edited February 26, 2018 by Dewdman42

[Eric Cardenas]

You can not freeze multi output instruments.

[valve]

You seem to be confused about the basic aspects of Logic Pro's architecture. Like a console, everything flows through channel strips.

 

When you create a software instrument, it is flowing through a software instrument channel strip. You can have many tracks flowing through one, e.g. Inst 4. They can be assigned to any MIDI channel to choose or all the same. They can be viewed in the Mixer with the setting you discovered, In the Track List, they can be turned off/on individually with the power buttons if you have them enabled.

I'm definitely still lost, but I think I understand that the Tracks Area tracks are a layout of content (regions) that are routed to corresponding channel strips, through a "Channel". So the architecture is something like Track (and its content) >channel> Channel Strip > Instrument > Output for an Instrument track, correct?

 

If each of my instrument tracks are flowing through one channel to the same instrument-type channel strip, why are there thirteen "Inst 4" channel strips and thirteen "Inst 4" channels listed in the Reassign Track right-click dropdown?

 

 

I would use aux channels with the multi-out version Kontakt.

Yo can use MIDI directly on the aux channel strips too.

Do you mean it's possible to view the Aux channel strips as tracks in the Tracks area (instead of the Inst tracks, which seem to be the same thing over and over again)? I can't think of any other way to put a MIDI region on something only visible in the Mixer. How might I get Aux tracks into the Tracks area?

 

Ironically enough, if I can't freeze those tracks, I wonder if a multi-timbral setup is actually worth all this trouble. On the one hand, everything seems messier and more difficult to work with. Plus, I will inevitably run out of RAM or CPU after a few heavyweight instruments are playing at the same time, so I'll have to freeze. (I'm not too crazy about constantly printing to audio). So difficult.

 

 

I personally think the best approach is to create a multi-instrument object in the environment and route up to 16 tracks through that to your single Kontakt instance. When I get to my computer I will post more detailed instructions.

 

The new track multi-Timbral option does not do it that way, it rather creates fader objects in the environment that all point to the same underlying Inst. I’m not sure why they decided to do it that way but if you use the environment multi-instrument, you will get completely separate track headers and you will see midi channels in the mixer window for each track of midi and you can still use the + button to add aux channels for separating all the audio from kontakt

I guess I could give this a try, although man that MIDI Environment is also tough for me to wrap my head around. I've been trying to read the manual on all this stuff, but it's pretty overwhelming. (And I'm no stranger to DAW's). I guess this is just a big hole in my knowledge. Do you know of any solid place I can read up on how to set up a multi-instrument object?

[Eric Cardenas]

See if this helps:

 

Multitimbral Mutes & Solos Killing my Workflow

[Dewdman42]

Forget what I said about the environment. Eric's approach is much cleaner. Hopefully that other link will clarify how to associate tracks with AUX mixer channels.

 

What AU are you trying to use in multi-timbral mode? I've also come to the conclusion that basically its better to run Kontakt in one sound per instance, rather then multi-timbral mode, mainly because of the AUX limitations mentioned above briefly about track freezing.

 

Briefly in answer to some of your other questions.. Yes, tracks are totally separate things from mixer channels. You host your instruments on the mixer channels and you assign your tracks to send the audio/midi to something, which typically can be a mixer channel that is hosting an instrument (though it can also be assigned to send to environment objects).

 

So if you have a multi-timbral instrument, the + button creates aux mixer channels to capture the output from that instrument. but as you observed, they don't automatically create corresponding tracks above, you have to do the steps Eric explained on that old forum thread, to have tracks that are assigned to those AUX channels and LPX will send midi region data on the midi channel of the track, to the multi-timbral instrument, which when can send audio to the various AUX outs...

 

This is really the best way to handle multi-timbral instruments in my mind, but after learning that multi-timbral instruments can't be frozen, I'm inclined to avoid using multi-timbral mode at all.

[valve]

Phew, what a head-ful. I so appreciate the help, though.

 

I followed those steps from the older thread, and am coming up on an earlier quirk that also confuses me. I made single Instrument track, added a multi-output (16x stereo) instance of Kontakt, added three instruments to the rack, batch-made separate outputs for each instrument (in Kontakt), pressed the + button twice in the mixer, made tracks from those auxes, and here is what I'm left with:

 

So my first rack instrument corresponds to an Instrument track, and the last two correspond to Aux tracks. I tried creating an extra output as 1|2 in Kontakt as a "Master" output, so my instruments would all be auxes falling on outputs 2|3, 4|5, and 6|7, but this caused each aux track to correspond to the wrong aux mixer channel (Aux 1 corresponded to Aux 2 in the mixer).

 

Maybe I really will forget about multi-timbral Kontakt. After reading the Ask Audio article that was alluded to way earlier in this thread, it seems like the way Kontakt was designed doesn't fall in line with the way Logic is designed. The more I move forward with writing for film as a job, the more this seems like a sticky path forward, though.

[Dewdman42]

kontakt works fine in multi timbral mode in LPX. If that's what you want to do. The first two channels coming from Kontakt 1/2 go to the channel you have called "Inst1" and 3/4 and 5/6 go to the two additional aux channels.

 

If you want to sum all of the tracks somewhere, then use a summing track stack in LPX.

[Dewdman42]

Maybe I really will forget about multi-timbral Kontakt. After reading the Ask Audio article that was alluded to way earlier in this thread, it seems like the way Kontakt was designed doesn't fall in line with the way Logic is designed. The more I move forward with writing for film as a job, the more this seems like a sticky path forward, though.

 

The issues he was mainly concerned about in that article were related to the fact that at the time in 2013, a single instance of any given instrument plugin seems to be isolated to a single core. So if you try to put all your instruments into one multi-timbral instance of a plugin, then your CPU won't get the load spread across other cores. Truthfully as your track counts go up with other kinds of plugins and processing happening, most likely your other cores will be utilized also, so I find that Ask Audio article to be a little bit OCD.

 

Putting seperate instances of Kontakt for each actual NKI you're going to load is one way to ensure spreading the load around to different cores, it will also enable you to freeze tracks, which can help a lot also in terms of resource usage. However as he pointed out, if you have a non-keyswitched sample library you are going to use where each part of the multi-timbral instrument has a different articulation, then you can end up with a lot of tracks and kontakt instances that way....

 

In the example he gave as a problem, you could also load several related articulations into a single kontakt instance and then write a Scripter script that will channelize the incoming midi based on keyswitches of your own choice or using articulation id..then the audio output can still be stereo non-multi-timbral, so you'd be able to freeze the tracks and also don't have track clutter.