Midi Fighter Twister and Feedback for LED's???

[MasonHamlinCC2]

Hey LPH Members,

 

Does anyone have any experience setting up a Midi Fighter Twister as a Controller for Logic?

 

My main issue is I cannot get Logic to send feedback to the Twister to update the LED's on the encoders for whatever parameter I assign. If assign an encoder for volume it works fine but if I adjust the volume on screen with my mouse the Twister doesn't update the new value and it is essentially just working like a pot in pickup mode if I then go turn the encoder on the Twister.

 

I do have text and local feedback checked in CS Setup and have the feedback option on 'Automatic'. I've tried all of the feedback options and nothing works.

 

To implement this kind of feedback to the Twister do I need to do some coding or use of another app like Bome translator?

 

I bought this unit to replace my standard pots and thought since this unit is built with rotary encoders this would work out of the box.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

Dave...

[des99]

I doubt you can get feedback working - this is generally a function of the control surface module you are using. I'd guess you're just using the Twister as a regular dumb MIDI controller, rather than a supported control surface (I've no experience with this device.)

 

Does it have a control surface module for Logic? Or is it supported by an existing control surface module? Does the device show up in your Control Surface Setup window? From the website, Logic is notably absent for the list of DAWs they mention, and they just indicate it's a dumb MIDI controller.

 

Feedback is not something that's customisable in Logic, it's a big of a black box, so if you want to get feedback working, you'll probably have to implement this in some other way, or do without.

[MasonHamlinCC2]

Hey Des99,

 

Thanks so much for the reply.

 

It is just a generic MIDI controller. It does not have a setup option in the list of controllers in Logic Pro - Control Surfaces - Setup. It does show up by name as an input/output option if I try to tie it into another controller setup (MCU or Midiman etc.). When I do try to open another controller setup and reassign the Twister to the CC's in the Controller Setup I get functionality but still no feedback.

 

If I can't get feedback rolling this is totally useless and no advantage over the standard pots I have been using.

 

Do you think through some extensive other programming or use a program like Bome Translator I can get this to work?

 

Or should I just bite the bullet and get an X Touch or SSL UF8 or some such controller?

[MasonHamlinCC2]

What good is a rotary encoder over a standard pot if it can't update or receive feedback?

[des99]

If I can't get feedback rolling this is totally useless and no advantage over the standard pots I have been using.

What good is a rotary encoder over a standard pot if it can't update or receive feedback?

 

Honestly, I'm quite opinionated on MIDI controllers in general, and for Logic in particular.

*For me*, almost all dumb generic MIDI controllers are entirely useless out of the box on their own. It makes no sense to me for someone to buy a generic MIDI controller, and then manually set up various manual assignments for various plugins *unless their needs are extremely simple* - in which case it can be an appropriate tool for the job.

 

But my tastes and requirements etc aren't necessarily anyone else's. Some people love a generic knob box they can assign the odd thing to a sweep a filter, or whatever. That doesn't fly with me though.

 

Do you think through some extensive other programming or use a program like Bome Translator I can get this to work?

 

So, it can be done (and I'm, in fact developing something that does this) but it's not something you can set up simply. You'd need to be a developer and write a custom app for it. Something like Bome is not intelligent enough for what I'm doing, but depending on your needs, and on what features it has, it might be possible to hack something up (and I can give suggestions if you want to go that route). But it won't be something you'll have up and running in a week - again, unless your needs are very simple.

 

Or should I just bite the bullet and get an X Touch or SSL UF8 or some such controller?

 

So - again, I have no idea of your needs, so I'm not going to recommend any particular device as I have no idea if that will be the right tool for you. However, I do believe an intelligent "control surface" of one sort or another is generally a far better integrated solution to controlling Logic than a dumb MIDI controller. And the best integrated is the Mackie MCU-supporting devices, with some caveats (some of which I'm working around too).

 

(EUCon might be good, but I've not used it and support seems to be somewhat questionable).

 

I will say that I have spent considerable time setting up a controller scheme for me that works along these lines, and in my Logic-only scheme, I also don't have feedback yet (for technical reasons, which isn't a massive issue for the most part), but (along with many other projects, so development is sporadic) I'm implementing it differently with an intelligent handler inbetween Logic and the device, so I can fully implement feedback. I've gone into this on other threads here. One day it might get a public release and support a wider range of dumb controllers, but I'm a way off there and it's not something I'm focused on currently (as my Logic-only solution works really well in the meantime).

 

But if you want an easy life, I'd suggest getting a controller that's thoughtfully designed to control Logic, rather than hacking up a generic thing that just sends and receives MIDI and doesn't care what it's connected to.

 

Hope that helps!

[MasonHamlinCC2]

Hey Des99,

 

Again, thanks so much for the detailed reply.

 

I have a guy over at Bome who either works for them or is just a high end power user who roams the forums but he claims he can get feedback to work with Logic and the Twister.

 

I may acquire his services to do this and if he is successful I will post the results here.

 

The main reason I am trying to get the Twister working is because of workspace limitations. I'd have gone and purchase an X- Touch or something similar a longtime ago but my workspace just doesn't allow for it without totally remodeling and getting a new workstation setup etc.

 

If I go down this road with the Bome guy I'll for sure share here. I'm sure it can be achieved as well but even though I have a pretty solid understanding of MIDI, getting into the coding realm is way out of my league and my learning curve would be extremely steep.

 

FWIW, DJTechTools (who designed and sell the Twister) have the Twister firmware as open source for anyone to tweak. I'm sure someone with the knowledge could wrestle with that code and turn this box into anything they could dream up; including supporting feedback as well as true 14-bit messaging. The code is here:

 

https://github.com/DJ-TechTools/Midi_Fighter_Twister_Open_Source

 

It is a sweet box of knobs and solidly built with a great feel but it is definitely just a dumb MIDI box as is.

 

I still think I might just get out the tape measure and figure out how to reconfigure my small workspace into accommodating a true MCU box of some variety that is plug and play.

 

Thanks again for the replies.

 

 

Dave...

[MasonHamlinCC2]

One other accolade I can give for the Twister is that the utility software to configure the output messages ('Midi Fighter Utility') and LED's is one of the best I have ever seen for a generic controller. They definitely got that part right. It is extremely logical and easy to use.

[des99]

Yes, if you get some info on how they suggest to implement feedback, it would be great if you could post that here, as I’d be interested in how they are suggesting to implement it. Most of my research into this area is with the MCU and the feedback mechanisms are surfaced in the controller assignments window, but actually implemented in the module itself, which is a black box.

 

I can think of how they might suggest to do it, something along the lines of a pass through or echo back of the incoming knob messages, but I’m not sure it would work like you expect - so I’m all ears if there is a solution I’m not aware of, or if they have some knowledge about Logic’s implementation of this that I lack… either that or they are doing it the same way I am.

[MasonHamlinCC2]

Hey Everyone,

 

I finally got the Twister working great with feedback and also showing the bank control surface bars in my Mixer window. The following are steps I took to make it happen though not all may be necessary:

 

1.- backup up your current Control Surface preference file somewhere and then delete it from user/Library/Preferences

 

2.-save and quit Logic

 

3.- reopen Logic and go to Logic Pro/Control Surfaces/Setup and instantiate an M-Audio 'iControl'

 

4.-set the MIDI Fighter Twister as the input and output in the Setup screen for the iControl

 

5.-open controller assignments and delete all assignment pages, zones and modes except for the zone labelled 'Control Surface:iControl' (this may not be necessary but I could not get feedback to work properly with the Twister's LED rings until I did this; just changing the MIDI Input Values to what the Twister was outputting gave me functionality but no feedback; there may be a way to keep the preconfigured assignments that appear when loading the iControl but I just wiped them all and assigned my own and with that I got proper feedback)

 

6.-go about learning and configuring your assignments in that zone and you should have proper feedback and banking indicators

 

Dave...

[simcc]

On 3/6/2022 at 5:17 AM, MasonHamlinCC2 said:

Hey Everyone,

I finally got the Twister working great with feedback and also showing the bank control surface bars in my Mixer window. The following are steps I took to make it happen though not all may be necessary:

1.- backup up your current Control Surface preference file somewhere and then delete it from user/Library/Preferences

2.-save and quit Logic

3.- reopen Logic and go to Logic Pro/Control Surfaces/Setup and instantiate an M-Audio 'iControl'

4.-set the MIDI Fighter Twister as the input and output in the Setup screen for the iControl

5.-open controller assignments and delete all assignment pages, zones and modes except for the zone labelled 'Control Surface:iControl' (this may not be necessary but I could not get feedback to work properly with the Twister's LED rings until I did this; just changing the MIDI Input Values to what the Twister was outputting gave me functionality but no feedback; there may be a way to keep the preconfigured assignments that appear when loading the iControl but I just wiped them all and assigned my own and with that I got proper feedback)

6.-go about learning and configuring your assignments in that zone and you should have proper feedback and banking indicators

Dave...

Hi that sounds cool. What's the resolution like on the MIDI Fighter Twister, is it just 7 bit?

[MasonHamlinCC2]

For the pan knobs (-63 to + 63) or any other 0-127 MIDI parameter the movement is in 1 unit increments/decrements; no problems there.

For volume faders it is not so precise. Tracking from -14 to 6 it scales from .4 increments/decrements to a best of .2. Below -14 and heading downwards it starts scaling to units of .8 and higher. At the lowest possible values I can access it goes from -71.2 to -62.4. The .2 resolution range is from -4.1 to 6.0. That is definitely useable for me and adequate. The .3 resolution range is from -8.8 to -4.1. 

I have all my Twister knobs set to Velocity Sensitive. The other settings (Responsive and High Resolution) do not make any difference or improvement. With Velocity Sensitive the slower you adjust the knob the finer control. I much prefer Velocity Sensitive to the other two settings.

Again, for MIDI knobs it is awesome and you aren't losing any finesse. With volume it could be problematic for some who wouldn't be happy missing out on .1 dBfs increments. I personally don't have the ears to hear that difference so for me it works for what I wanted to achieve with the MFT. I have my MFT controlling sends and effects and it is great. Much prefer the feel of the rotary knobs and the conservation of desk space to a slab board of faders.

You basically have 128 knobs with the MFT as you have 4 banks and each knob has an on/off setting that can be programmed differently. One trick is to use the Bome MIDI Translator to switch banks. I have it set up so I just press CONTROL + 1-4 on my keyboard keypad to switch through the 4 banks. Only way to go because switching banks with the side buttons on the MFT is not feasible at all for a mixing application environment and workflow. 

[zipb]

Another MFT user here.

I only needed to add the M-Audio 'iControl' and set the MIDI Fighter Twister as the input and output in the Setup screen for the iControl. I kept all the rest of my Control Surfaces.

Works as expected, including leds, as far as I can tell. Very nice.

 

[MasonHamlinCC2]

Yeah, it may not be necessary to completely wipe out all of your CS Assignments to get it to work. I'm very happy with the MFT hardware and setup though and I do have a Classic PreSonus Faderport for finer volume fader control if I need it.

I should really post a thread on the Faderport Classic as it is totally possible to use that with the latest version of Logic on Monterey and fully customize it. I dug around extensively on the internet and finally got the info on how to do it. 

[simcc]

Hey thanks. I actually ordered an X-touch, I want to see how smart controls work with faders flipped...

That said, still considering one of these...also Kenton Killamix (mostly for the joystick)...and the Faderfox EC4, as it will do 14bit midi CCs.

[12bitcrunch]

On 11/6/2022 at 10:18 AM, zipb said:

Another MFT user here.

I only needed to add the M-Audio 'iControl' and set the MIDI Fighter Twister as the input and output in the Setup screen for the iControl. I kept all the rest of my Control Surfaces.

Works as expected, including leds, as far as I can tell. Very nice.

Sorry for the necro bump, but was hoping for some clarification here.

So this is a hack to get Logic to see the MFT as a control surface? 

Looking for some endless encoders to play nice with Logic, already have 2 C1 Faders and Stream Deck controlling Logic so don't want to mess with them or delete preferences etc.

Cheers

[zipb]

44 minutes ago, 12bitcrunch said:

Sorry for the necro bump, but was hoping for some clarification here.

So this is a hack to get Logic to see the MFT as a control surface? 

Looking for some endless encoders to play nice with Logic, already have 2 C1 Faders and Stream Deck controlling Logic so don't want to mess with them or delete preferences etc.

Cheers

Not a hack. You add the M-uadio iControl device and map it to the MFT MIDI. That was it, I think.

Don't know if it will fit in with your workflow. 

Don't know if it disturb your other controllers.

Only used it briefly once, I use my MFT with Bitwig more.

YMMV.

[Mamajolai]

On 3/6/2022 at 6:17 AM, MasonHamlinCC2 said:

Hey Everyone,

I finally got the Twister working great with feedback and also showing the bank control surface bars in my Mixer window. The following are steps I took to make it happen though not all may be necessary:

1.- backup up your current Control Surface preference file somewhere and then delete it from user/Library/Preferences

2.-save and quit Logic

3.- reopen Logic and go to Logic Pro/Control Surfaces/Setup and instantiate an M-Audio 'iControl'

4.-set the MIDI Fighter Twister as the input and output in the Setup screen for the iControl

5.-open controller assignments and delete all assignment pages, zones and modes except for the zone labelled 'Control Surface:iControl' (this may not be necessary but I could not get feedback to work properly with the Twister's LED rings until I did this; just changing the MIDI Input Values to what the Twister was outputting gave me functionality but no feedback; there may be a way to keep the preconfigured assignments that appear when loading the iControl but I just wiped them all and assigned my own and with that I got proper feedback)

6.-go about learning and configuring your assignments in that zone and you should have proper feedback and banking indicators

Dave...

Is your midi twister receiving led feedback from logic? I thought that was impossible? You use your mouse on logic channel eq and the leds on the MT is in sync with the values in the eq??

[Mamajolai]

I spied what Logic is sending out to my x-touch mini when I turn a knob on a waves EV2 equalizer: is there away to get the leds on the xtouch to respond to this gibberish when set to normal cc-mode and not mc mode? 

 

The reason I don't want the xtouch in mc mode, is that after all it's a small controller with just a few knobs, and I don't like the feel of the encoders when pushed. So I remapped a few things and it seems to be working good.