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CC1 vs CC7 vs automation


edurbrow
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I just found out about CC1.  Do I have this right? CC1 is dynamics and will change samples between different levels, whereas CC7 is overall volume without changing the samples (though the video I watched stated that in the early days it did). The question that sprang into my mind is:  how many samples at different dynamic levels of the same note do Logic Pro's instruments typically use, especially in the orchestral instruments?
Another question is in which cases would you use CC7 and which automation?

Does the EXS24 have another name for CC1? I don't see things listed by their CC numbers. On the other hand there could be heaps of modulation. The String Ensemble Legato has 10 modulations, but I don't know what they correspond to.

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CC #1 is the standard MIDI message sent by the modulation wheel on synths.

When the message actually *modulates*, is up to the user/instrument.

CC #7 is the standard MIDI message for "Volume", yes.

How an instrument interprets and responds to these, are up to each individual instrument.

There is no standard that says any given instrument will always have X features (like number of round robins, articulations, etc), as different instruments require different things.

The EXS24 receives mod wheel messages just fine - the modulation source is called "Mod Wheel".

Edited by des99
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I rarely use CC7 when doing Orchestral music, use CC1 or CC11 depending on the instrument.    Many orchestral libraries use CC1 as Expression, some use CC11 for Expression, some use combinations of CC1 and CC11 for modulation plus expression.   Also included in the mix of options are Articulations which I think is what you are referring to in your post as there are 10 of these listed (the number you noted).   Not to be confused with modulation, these articulations are how the instrument is played, i.e., Spiccato, Staccato, Pizzicato, Sustain, etc...  How the bow is used, whether the strings are plucked, or whether trills are used, etc.....   Use Key Switches to change these articulation settings.

Orchestral performers often increase vibrato as they are increasing volume so some of the newer libraries include both Mod and Expression parameters in their patches, i.e. you can manipulate both independently rather than have them automatically assume what you are trying to accomplish.    The Logic EXS24 instruments use CC11 by default for volume/dynamics as do many GM instruments.    EW Opus is an example where some instruments use CC1 for Expression, some of their patches use CC11, some patches use both ( 1 for modulation/vibrato(CC1), and 1 for volume/expression (CC11))   ProjectSam also uses CC1 Mod Wheel as Expression unless they have changed that in recent releases.   When I open a patch  I usually move the Mod Wheel and Expression slider to see how the instrument is responding to either before recording anything.

For Orchestral music, think of the Expression function as volume/dynamics whether that function is CC1 or CC11 as described above.   The Expression effect  is how hard the instrument is being played(dynamics), which affects volume but is much different way than volume CC7 because as you say, the patch samples are changing based on these data inputs.   This link example contains all CC1 and CC11, there is no CC7 in this project at all.   A remake of Ennio Morricone's Malena.    https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=14460758

This example was done in Logic with EW Opus but originally it was mocked up using stock Logic instruments.   I just changed the CC11 to CC1 to accommodate after it was finished.  Hope this information is helpful regarding your question.   These are many of the answers to questions I was looking for when getting into this type of music production.

I would recommend some of Guy Michelmore's videos or Ryan Thomas on how to do Orchestral Music with these tools if you are interested.   Also relevant for Pop, Rock, Jazz, County etc,, using Strings or other orchestral instruments.       Also, check out ProjectSam's site as they have MIDI samples of different styles of music that you can delve into.   Use the Event Viewer to see the track information or open the editor window and see the data and what parameters they are using to get a sound.  Once you have that down, most sample libraries are the same in this regard.

Regards

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Malena is very realistic sounding. I will check out your recommended videos.

So Logic EXS24 instruments use CC11 for expression, so typically, would you open up the midi draw window and draw in expression if you wanted say, a tympani crescendo?

16 hours ago, markno999 said:

Also included in the mix of options are Articulations which I think is what you are referring to in your post as there are 10 of these listed (the number you noted).   Not to be confused with modulation, these articulations are how the instrument is played, i.e., Spiccato, Staccato, Pizzicato, Sustain, etc...

Are you saying here that I don't need to have a bunch of different tracks to get these sounds? Up until now, I might have 4 tracks of legato strings v1 v2 vla vc, 4 tracks of staccato and 4 tracks of pizz. a pain to be sure.

I'm still wondering how many samples are typically used in say violin or tympani on one note to catch the change of timbre from soft to loud in the EXS24 instruments. I'm using only the Logic library at this point.

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5 hours ago, edurbrow said:

I'm still wondering how many samples are typically used in say violin or tympani on one note to catch the change of timbre from soft to loud in the EXS24 instruments.

You can open them in the EXS Editor and see exactly how many zones and groups any given instrument uses, it's velocity layers and so on.

Edited by des99
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10 hours ago, edurbrow said:

So Logic EXS24 instruments use CC11 for expression, so typically, would you open up the midi draw window and draw in expression if you wanted say, a tympani crescendo?

Yes, they typically use CC11.     I used to draw crescendos with a mouse but got quite frustrated with the process, I never got quite what I was looking for.   So have since bought a Nectar LX88 + and use the Mod wheel and Expression controls so I can hear what is happening in real time rather than draw with a mouse and hope for the best.    If the controls need some tweaking after the fact will then use the mouse for small corrections.   To answer your Timpani question, you also have to factor in Velocity, particularly with drums.   If you draw in a drum roll with the mouse and  Velocity of the notes is the same you are likely going to get a machine gun effect even if you use Expression to create the Crescendo.    I would either change some of the note velocities or tap it  in on the keyboard to get an approximation of  how a real player might be hitting the Timpani.   Some libraries compensate for this machine gun effect but I still usually alter the velocities to get a more realistic effect.

10 hours ago, edurbrow said:

Are you saying here that I don't need to have a bunch of different tracks to get these sounds? Up until now, I might have 4 tracks of legato strings v1 v2 vla vc, 4 tracks of staccato and 4 tracks of pizz. a pain to be sure.

I'm still wondering how many samples are typically used in say violin or tympani on one note to catch the change of timbre from soft to loud in the EXS24 instruments. I'm using only the Logic library at this point.

I didn't need a bunch of tracks because I used a sample library patch with multiple instrument patches.   You get a more realistic sound when say 3 Cellos are recorded together for a sample patch than if you layer 3 individual Cellos on individual tracks.   In Logic use the Studio String Sections to achieve this result. 

Honestly I wouldn't have the time or patience to have many multiple tracks of instruments to mimic a group:)   Malena has only 11 Tracks.  1 solo violin (EW Gypsy), Violins 1, Violins 2, Violas, 1 small Chamber section, 1 Cello, 1 Bass, 1 Flute, 1 Oboe.   There are 2 additional Solo Violin tracks for doubling in spots and for overlap if the sample wasn't responding how I wanted it to.

Not sure about how many layers there are, each instrument and library can vary greatly.    Generally you look for buckets of velocity ranges in a library, i.e. 0-40, 41-80, 81-100, etc.. might all have different velocity effect within those ranges/groups and then you would have varying number of Round Robin actions occurring.  I wouldn't obsess over the number of layers too much, they are going to vary greatly and better libraries will have more layer options and will be more realistic.    Best use your ear to play out the result you are looking for.   If a library or sound isn't cutting it, try another one.    If you aren't getting what you are looking for go the Piano Roll, grab some problematic notes and drag the Velocity slider around until you hear what you a looking for.

For drawing Expression or Modulation on a track, I will use Ctrl + Shift + Enter to create a new track with same instrument.   That way you can keep your programming separate from the MIDI notes until you are satisfied with the results.   Then Join (Command + J) to combine the Expression/Modulation together with the original MIDI track and then delete the duplicate track.   I think this information was posted by Des some time ago and have used it ever since hearing about it.

This is a pretty decent video on getting up to speed with Studio Strings.

 

Regards

Edited by markno999
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9 hours ago, edurbrow said:

Unfortunately, I am on v. 10.2.2. because my computer is at the last system it can accept which is El Capitan.

Most all this information is still relevent in 10.2.2.   You may be missing some features in 10.2.2. but the rest is all the same or similar, i.e., I don't remember when articulations were added, however, you don't need to use articulations, in that case use keyswitches instead.    OR, many people still setup individual tracks for popular articulations even with the addition of the articulations feature to Logic Pro such as Pizz, shorts, longs, etc...

If you don't have a library with sections, use a library that does, or use the Stock Logic Full Strings + in ESX24/Sampler, to fill out the sound for example.   There are sections and solo instruments available in your version.   You can still get realistic mock-ups using the proper techniques, even with the free stock libraries in v 10.2.2.

 

Regards

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