Important news for silicon Mac/Plugin Alliance users...

[fisherking]

this just popped up on instagram (i don't have any PA plugins, but thought people here would like to know).

Edited August 20, 2023 by des99
Title updated by request

[des99]

Indeed, I already posted this in the Ventura thread when it happened:

I'm thinking of upping to Ventura now, but I want to sort out a rearranged backup system first (I'm switching to Time Machine for my main system backup for a bunch of reasons) but I need to sort out some drive upgrades, and I'm not entirely sure exactly what I'm doing yet (I'm hoping for some drive bargains over the next few months or maybe Black Friday.)

You can't back up a 1TB drive (even with free space available) to another 1TB drive using Time Machine, annoyingly enough...

Edited August 19, 2023 by des99

[des99]

bx_oberhausen (and reportedly some others) now have very bad performance on Apple silicon with this latest update. It's glitchy and eats a full core - I went back to 1.5, where it behaves as expected without problems.

[fisherking]

2 hours ago, des99 said:

bx_oberhausen (and reportedly some others) now have very bad performance on Apple silicon with this latest update. It's glitchy and eats a full core - I went back to 1.5, where it behaves as expected without problems.

can you clarify? is that a plugin alliance plugin? i mean, are you talking about the logic update, or an OS update, or the PA update?...

[des99]

10 minutes ago, fisherking said:

can you clarify? is that a plugin alliance plugin?

Yes. "bx" is Brainworx, one of the developers that make plugins under the PA distribution umbrella.

As you posted above, and is the topic of this thread, PA issued the long-awaited update for most of their plugins a day or two ago, for the final round of AAX Apple silicon, and Ventura compatibility.

A bunch of these updated PA plugins are now performing very badly under Apple silicon - I gave an example of one I've personally verified.

Therefore, I reverted bx_oberhausen to the version before this latest PA update (and likely will do others, I retrieved all the previous versions of the PA plugins from my backups in rediness to roll back - we're building a list of ones that are noticeably bad over on GS).

It's something to be aware of, if people finally updated all their plugins in the hope of now working plugins in their Ventura systems. They won't crash anymore, but many of them are performing very badly.

Hence the heads up, related to this update.

Edited August 20, 2023 by des99

[Simon Morrison]

Unfortunately all of the updated AU versions of Plugin Alliance's plugins released on 8/18/2023 incorporate a significant bug causing CPU over-utilization / spiking and audio artifacts. The bug impacts both Intel and Apple Silicon Macs, and macOS versions from 10.13.6 - 13.5.1.

The Plugin Alliance / Native Instruments product support team is aware of the issue.

I strongly recommend that anyone using AU versions of PA's plugins DO NOT install the updated versions released on 8/18/2023.

[analogika]

Yeah BX_oberhausen won’t give out audio when played from external MIDI on MainStage on my system. It plays fine when clicking around on the MainStage keyboard on the monitor…

[Simon Morrison]

 

I received an update from the Native Instruments (Plugin Alliance) technical support team today.

The AU plugin CPU over-utilization / spiking issue is being investigated.

No ETA on a fix yet.

Installers for previous versions of plugins are not currently available on the Plugin Alliance web site, and cannot be restored via the PA Installation Manager application.

For individuals needing access to previous versions of the affected plugins, open a Plugin Alliance / Native Instruments product support ticket, requesting access to the needed AU installer(s).

 

[analogika]

Has anybody received any feedback from PA on these issues?

[Sonically]

I upgraded to Ventura 13.6 and now have zero issues with any PA plugs on my M1 mini in Logic using AU. 

Knifonium

DS Tantra

DS Thorn

Maag EQ 2 and 4

BxDigitalV3

Metric A/B

Black Box M/S

All working perfectly. Stress tested for the past two days. I don't know if 13.6 fixed any issues, but DS Thorn works great, and it isn't even listed as qualified. Go figure. 

 

Anyone have a clue if 13.6 fixed it? or perhaps it isn't universal? I have another computer to install on and I'd love to know what's happening that I'm not having issues on my Mac with Logic, AU, PA, Ventura 13.6 etc...?

[des99]

I don't know which PA versions you are using - the pre-Ventura versions have various unreliability/crash problems with a range of PA plugins. The subsequent Ventura update fixes those crash problems, but gives very bad/glitchy CPU performance for many of the plugins (particularly ones coded by brainworx) which is most easily visible when a track with those plugins is in live mode.

It seems however these plugins were compiled for the update made their CPU performance erratic and unpredictable.

For me, with bx_oberhausen for example, went from using about 20-30% of a core when playing it live in the pre-Ventura version (expected good performance), to using nearly a full core and being *impossible* to cleanly play due to CPU glitches, unless you raised the buffer very high. It basically became unusable, and I rolled back all my PA updates - I'm still using the pre-Ventura updates (on Sonoma).

PA have confirmed the CPU issues in the Ventura update, and are working on a fix.

Edited October 12, 2023 by des99

[Sonically]

The last update. No issues. PA installer. Ventura update, it was the last update PA did like a week or two ago?... can't remember how far back. No issues. Stress tested beyond belief. No CPU spikes or latency. I know there's an issue and they're working on it. Somehow it missed me...? Just curious to find out why.

[des99]

4 minutes ago, Sonically said:

Stress tested beyond belief. No CPU spikes or latency. I know there's an issue and they're working on it. Somehow it missed me...? Just curious to find out why.

Out of interest - if you want to investigate, download and try bx_oberhausen - the demo is fine if you don't have it. This is the one I confirmed with *major* CPU issues in the Ventura update (I didn't try the others, I just reverted more or less straight away - all the reports of other plugin CPU issues I've seen are from other people, not me personally).

Stick your buffer at the usual Apple silicon sweet spot - 32, or 64 - pick some patches and see if you can play the synth from your MIDI keyboard in a normal fashion, with a 20-30% CPU load, like it behaved previously.

I'd be interested in your findings!

Edited October 12, 2023 by des99

[Sonically]

I don't know if you understood me when I said I "stress tested beyond belief", But my curiosity is just that. A curiosity. I have no need to "investigate" outside of asking if anyone knows why some systems work fine and some don't. (It's obviously not EVERY pa user in logic)... Good luck with your PA issues. I have none. Peace.

[fisherking]

1 hour ago, des99 said:

Out of interest - if you want to investigate, download and try bx_oberhausen - the demo is fine if you don't have it. This is the one I confirmed with *major* CPU issues in the Ventura update (I didn't try the others, I just reverted more or less straight away - all the reports of other plugin CPU issues I've seen are from other people, not me personally).

Stick your buffer at the usual Apple silicon sweet spot - 32, or 64 - pick some patches and see if you can play the synth from your MIDI keyboard in a normal fashion, with a 20-30% CPU load, like it behaved previously.

I'd be interested in your findings!

 

fwiw, just trying the bx_oberhausen demo on my mac (m2 pro mini, running sonoma 14.1 beta); lots of audio glitches, and currently... presets are scrolling thru themselves. 😳

so, basically unusable as is...

 

[des99]

Yeah, it's a mess... 😟

[fisherking]

2 minutes ago, des99 said:

Yeah, it's a mess... 😟

...and it's way past time for them to sort this out.... 🤔

[des99]

Interesting blog post regarding audio priority and scheduling differences between Ventura and Sonoma:

https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/tip-of-the-day/has-macos-sonoma-fixed-multicore-performance-for-apple-silicon/

[Sonically]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:43 AM, des99 said:

Interesting blog post regarding audio priority and scheduling differences between Ventura and Sonoma:

https://www.bluecataudio.com/Blog/tip-of-the-day/has-macos-sonoma-fixed-multicore-performance-for-apple-silicon/

Is this something that can be addressed or needs addressing at a user level? Is this an issue that basically there are no steps to improve performance? I'm not having any performance issues or any issues actually, but this makes it seem like I need to do something.. do I?

[des99]

15 minutes ago, Sonically said:

Is this something that can be addressed or needs addressing at a user level? Is this an issue that basically there are no steps to improve performance? I'm not having any performance issues or any issues actually, but this makes it seem like I need to do something.. do I?

It's an implementation problem in Ventura that was fixed in Sonoma. If you're affected by this problem, then the fix would be moving to Sonoma.

If you're not affected, then there's nothing to do.

I don't know any more about this than what that blog post contains, other than some anecdotal reports of USB audio issues in Ventura.

Edited October 25, 2023 by des99

[sunbrother]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:14 PM, des99 said:

It's an implementation problem in Ventura that was fixed in Sonoma. If you're affected by this problem, then the fix would be moving to Sonoma.

If you're not affected, then there's nothing to do.

I don't know any more about this than what that blog post contains, other than some anecdotal reports of USB audio issues in Ventura.

That is interesting. I think I'm running into this on my two current projects. Super light sessions, M1 Ultra, all the cores are using ~15% max according to my Logic and OS meters, and then all of a sudden it'll get a System Overload with a bunch of cores hitting 100% at once.

Can't wait for most of my software to support Sonoma so I can upgrade.

[severian]

Same issue for me on Sonoma with an Intel mac. All of my Plugin Alliance plugins cause CPU spikes and clicks/pops during playback.

Edited November 5, 2023 by severian

[des99]

So it seems PA rolled out a silent update for the CPU issues introduced their last update, but didn't go out of their way to actually *tell* anyone about it.

Eg I was using bx_oberhausen 1.5, and the 1.6 version they released on Aug 15th was the long-awaited Ventura crash fix update. This introduced pretty horrible spikes, mostly across the Brainworx-developed range of plugins, and made bx_oberhausen literally unusable here - I had to revert to 1.5.

Then it seems they released a 1.6.1 on Oct 9th*: "General: fixed CPU spikes on Mac OS"

I just tried this, and it has indeed fixed the bx_oberhausen issues and it is again usable. Overall, it seems that it is about 10-20% CPU heavier than 1.5 was, but at least it works.

So for those having PA spikes issues, it's worth checking to see whether you affected plugins have this CPU spike fix update, and updating to those (or just use the PA installer to blanket update everything to the latest versions).

* It's dated 9th Oct, but seems it was only recently released within the last week or so.

Edited November 6, 2023 by des99

[analogika]

THANK YOU

[Sonically]

5 hours ago, des99 said:

So it seems PA rolled out a silent update for the CPU issues introduced their last update, but didn't go out of their way to actually *tell* anyone about it.

Eg I was using bx_oberhausen 1.5, and the 1.6 version they released on Aug 15th was the long-awaited Ventura crash fix update. This introduced pretty horrible spikes, mostly across the Brainworx-developed range of plugins, and made bx_oberhausen literally unusable here - I had to revert to 1.5.

Then it seems they released a 1.6.1 on Oct 9th*: "General: fixed CPU spikes on Mac OS"

I just tried this, and it has indeed fixed the bx_oberhausen issues and it is again usable. Overall, it seems that it is about 10-20% CPU heavier than 1.5 was, but at least it works.

So for those having PA spikes issues, it's worth checking to see whether you affected plugins have this CPU spike fix update, and updating to those (or just use the PA installer to blanket update everything to the latest versions).

* It's dated 9th Oct, but seems it was only recently released within the last week or so.

where do you see the update? and how can we all check for updates? thanks so much!

[des99]

13 minutes ago, Sonically said:

where do you see the update?

The change logs for each plugin are available on each plugin page on their site, down at the bottom.

13 minutes ago, Sonically said:

and how can we all check for updates?

Run the PA installer, select "My Products" and the formats you want, then Update, and all the plugins you have will be updated to the latest versions. Or you can do a selection of specific ones, if you only want to update some of them.

(Or you can download and install them individually, if you're really bored... 😉 )

[Simon Morrison]

I am happy to report that on my Intel systems, the PA plug-ins with a changelog release date of Oct 9, 2023 do not exhibit the CPU spiking issue that was introduced in the Aug 15, 2023 release.

[Sonically]

Everything working peachy creamy here as well. Ahhh...

[Sonically]

Everyone's PA working in Ventura now? I have zero issues still.