Flatten Stack retains bus routing - a bug?

[orous]

 

Ok, when I create a summing track stack, all included tracks will be sent to a common bus.

Now, when I flatten the Track Stack, this routing should be reverted, too. But it isn't, the flattened tracks are still playing through the same bus and the summing track is moved to the far right in the mixer. I am on 10.7.9 and this is still happening although I think I remember it didn't at one point. Can someone confirm that this is a bug or is it supposed to be that way?

 

 

[polanoid]

If flattening a track stack changed the routing it would potentially alter the sound (e.g. if you had any FX on the summing aux) so actually that would be a bug 

Edited October 21, 2023 by polanoid

[orous]

It seems so counter-intuinitve. For what reason other than getting rid of the stack, its processing and its routing would I want to flatten a stack. In other words, if I had some processing going on a summing stack, why would I want to flatten it. The way Logic is designed is not logical to me here: Creating a stack introduces a totally expected new bus routing and a summing folder track, whereas flattening is not the reverse process but rather just a visual thing for the arrange and mixer window. 

[polanoid]

Well you wanted a confirmation if it’s a bug and I can definitely say it isn’t (and your desired behavior, as it would involve potential data loss, is)

[orous]

Thanx for confirming it is an actual feature and not a bug. I see ur point. I guess I am coming from a different era where doing (stack) and then undoing (flatten) that thing meant returning to the initial state. (Been in music business since 1991 on Atari, Cubase, PCs, then Macs & Logic user since 2006)

[David Nahmani]

Just to confirm what @polanoid stated, this is indeed the intended behavior. The idea is that flattening a stack should not change the way your mix sounds. 

1 hour ago, orous said:

For what reason other than getting rid of the stack, its processing and its routing would I want to flatten a stack. In other words, if I had some processing going on a summing stack, why would I want to flatten it.

For workflow reasons. There could be many reasons, I'll share one. 

Let's say I record a synth that's a track stack comprised of two instruments. The MIDI region is on the track stack and that triggers both instruments equally. I add some custom processing to the main track of the stack, for example an amp modeling plug-in and some compression. 

Then at some point I start realizing that I want to edit each synth separately so I open the stack and move the MIDI region on the first instrument track, and make a copy on the other instrument track. I can now edit the two MIDI regions separately (say transpose one one 5th up, change the note lengths...). 

At that point I may find it easier to have two independent tracks at the highest level of the Tracks area and not a stack, so I flatten the stack. I can even remove the Aux track (the stack's main track) but keep the original routing and processing because I still want the submix of my two synths to be processed through the amp modeling plugin and compressor. 

[orous]

Thanx David for further explaining the topic. I see the idea behind the design, but unfortunately it's a drag for my workflow. Best to all

[David Nahmani]

Yes often workflows are widely different across users so one user's feature is another user's bug, that's pretty common. Sorry to hear that in this case this isn't ideal for you. 

[orous]

I found this in the Logic User Guide:

 

"When you flatten a summing stack, the audio subgrouping is retained, unless there is no audio processing on the main track aux (no plug-ins, volume fader set at 0 dB, Pan/Balance set to neutral, and no automation data). In this case, all subtracks (or their audio subgroups) are routed to the Stereo (or Surround) Main output, and the main track Aux is deleted."

And this is not happening on my end - so this to me IS a bug. I follow all the conditions = "no plug-ins, volume fader set at 0 dB, Pan/Balance set to neutral, and no automation data", but the bus routing and the aux channel are retained.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by orous

[David Nahmani]

9 minutes ago, orous said:

to me IS a bug.

You're correct. I can reproduce it, and in fact this was reported earlier here: 

[orous]

Yeah I saw the same topic yesterday too and therefore just jumped here to ask if anything changed in this regard, but with no proper introduction. I apologise for that. So the conclusion is that as much as all the arguments from your side are accurate and I agree, there is still this bug remaining. Best to all. Over and out 🙂

[David Nahmani]

Yes I agree that this isn't working as advertised when there are no reasons to keep the routing and the Aux channel strip. Good point. 🙂 

[rAC]

@orous I take it that you’ve filed the bug report?

[polanoid]

53 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

Yes I agree that this isn't working as advertised when there are no reasons to keep the routing and the Aux channel strip. Good point. 🙂 

Indeed, I never noticed that, because frankly this is an extreme edge case. Why have a summing stack at all when you don't plan to do anything on the summing aux? You can use a Folder Stack then.

[orous]

3 hours ago, polanoid said:

Indeed, I never noticed that, because frankly this is an extreme edge case. Why have a summing stack at all when you don't plan to do anything on the summing aux? You can use a Folder Stack then.

I as composer sum-stack multiple tracks of various instrument kinds because that is the only way to then save them as a User Patch (in Logic's own Library) and have them ready for instant multiple-track recall. For instance all the Horn patches from different libraries, or say Heavyocity Damage all spread out on different tracks ... to avoid having to load them separately each time that I want to use them. So the only way to save them together is through Sum stack. Folder Stack unfortunately doesn't get saved, but I would prefer that way too. And then when they're loaded I can easily flatten the sum-stack, but the bug then says hello, u need to go now to the mixer and reassign them all to stereo bus manually and in addition u need to delete the former sum aux.

[orous]

4 hours ago, rAC said:

@orous I take it that you’ve filed the bug report?

I have just reported through the form here. 

[polanoid]

1 hour ago, orous said:

I as composer sum-stack multiple tracks of various instrument kinds because that is the only way to then save them as a User Patch (in Logic's own Library) and have them ready for instant multiple-track recall. For instance all the Horn patches from different libraries, or say Heavyocity Damage all spread out on different tracks ... to avoid having to load them separately each time that I want to use them. So the only way to save them together is through Sum stack. Folder Stack unfortunately doesn't get saved, but I would prefer that way too. And then when they're loaded I can easily flatten the sum-stack, but the bug then says hello, u need to go now to the mixer and reassign them all to stereo bus manually and in addition u need to delete the former sum aux.

good point.

[JakobP]

Kind'a like the autopunch in cycle mode, the manual always have claimed it works, but it never has... 🙄

[slide187]

So i have sort of a part B to this question... 

Here's my scenario... i had a couple of track stacks (folder type) just for organization... but i've realized i would rather have these as summing stacks, since the tracks in the stack can be processed together, and this would save me some processor power.  

Following the process mentioned above with my folder stacks, i select a folder stack, click flatten stack... the two tracks are then shown as they were before, but still have the bus routing from the folder stack... and now in the mixer window (as mentioned above) the folder stack is shown all the way to the right and will still control the two tracks that used to be in it as far as volume, solo and mute.  even after i change the separate track outputs back to stereo out again... 

My real question is how do i delete the old folder track stacks from the mixer window (and from the project completely)??  since when i try to do that i get this pop-up and i don't fully understand what it's warning me about... 

Does this just mean i'll be deleting the old folder stacks and their association with the tracks that were in them prior to flattening?  

[orous]

You can safely delete the folder (VCA) tracks from the mixer. Just click "Delete Anyway" in the pop-up. Folder stacks are basically just VCA groups. Just make sure u r deleting them from the mixer window if you have more windows open.

[orous]

And btw, I found the workaround for the topic of this thread's issue. If I select all the tracks in the track stack and then drag them out of the stack, they automatically revert to stereo out. But the bus still remains in the mixer harmlessly :)

[polanoid]

1 hour ago, slide187 said:

So i have sort of a part B to this question... 

Here's my scenario... i had a couple of track stacks (folder type) just for organization... but i've realized i would rather have these as summing stacks, since the tracks in the stack can be processed together, and this would save me some processor power.  

Following the process mentioned above with my folder stacks, i select a folder stack, click flatten stack... the two tracks are then shown as they were before, but still have the bus routing from the folder stack... and now in the mixer window (as mentioned above) the folder stack is shown all the way to the right and will still control the two tracks that used to be in it as far as volume, solo and mute.  even after i change the separate track outputs back to stereo out again... 

My real question is how do i delete the old folder track stacks from the mixer window (and from the project completely)??  since when i try to do that i get this pop-up and i don't fully understand what it's warning me about... 

Does this just mean i'll be deleting the old folder stacks and their association with the tracks that were in them prior to flattening?  

1) A folder stack does not introduce any bus routing. It will create a VCA (totally different thing really)

2) Flattening a folder stack will retain that VCA, yes

3) You can safely delete the VCA if it bothers you. Logic only warns you that the VCA is currently in use when you try to delete it (e.g. when it's set to anything else than 0dB, deleting it will change your mix).

Edited November 5, 2023 by polanoid

[slide187]

Thanks everyone... understood.  And yes i just wanted to delete the VCAs that remain as there's no need for them to be there as i'll be creating new summing stacks in their place to manipulate those particular tracks.  just less visual clutter, and they were at 0db anyhow.  

Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by slide187

[rAC]

I’ve hit that ‘extra’ ‘bus’ and wondered about that warning when deleting. @polanoidthanks for the explanation.