Motorized faders follow midi CC in Logic

[guavadude]

I ran across this video of a guy using Bome app as a translator for cc to fader data (HUI?). He’s using Cubase so I’m wondering is this possible in Logic? This is a little over my head but I sure would love to have this functionality.
 

I love the way the faders follow when he changes synths. I’m hoping to use my Virus C as synth controller. I’d also like to have faders follow cc1 for Kontakt instruments. 
 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by guavadude

[oscwilde]

Yes, Logic supports a bunch of controllers - but you can remap as desired - depending on the facilities of the controller itself.
Most controllers a "dumb" boxes, so rely on the software to tell them what to do.
Do you have / intend to buy a motorized fader controller?
If so, which one?

[guavadude]

I like the Icon 8 fader he was using in the video. The Behringer 8 fader is an option too. It kind of depends on if I can get this to work. If so, I could see getting an 8 fader. Currently I have an SLMixFace...8ch but no flying faders. My Alphatrack won't work on the M1 now so I'd like to get something with a motorized fader. 

The Virus C desktop I already have. It doesn't have flying faders though but it would be a great controller for VI synths. 

Is there a way to do this without having to use Bome translator and all the programming? 

Edited December 1, 2023 by guavadude

[oscwilde]

The Behringer is essentially an MCU, so works out of the box with Logic for transport, mixing, plug-in edits, etc. etc. Given that it has the encoders, it's cool to use for synths.
The encoders have "collars" (lights) around them that indicate the current value of the assigned plug-in/track parameter. Faders are motorized so automatically move to the currently assigned parameter (usually volume, but can be "flipped" with the encoder parameters).
Start here to see what the MCU/Behringer can do.

Doc:
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/logicpro-css/ctls7222820e/mac

WRT to the Virus C, you could use it, but you'd need to program everything to make it work the way you want in the Controller Assignments window.
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/logicpro/ctls71c30ac4/mac

I haven't used the Icon devices, so not sure of their capabilities - but am familiar with the Logic/Mackie Control units (and Behringer X-Touch).

Edited December 1, 2023 by oscwilde

[enossified]

Controls on the Virus won’t follow device settings the way an endless encoder or a motorized fader would.

For instance if you switch between synths, the actual settings of the knobs on the Virus will not be the same the plugin values. When you move a knob on the Virus, the values of the plugin mapped to the knob immediately jump to the new position, not a smooth transition. Logic does not support relative control of pots or “pass through” (value doesn’t change until knob reaches the current value) to allow smooth transitions the way some DAWs like Ableton Live do. 

This is OK for programming purposes, where jumping can be tolerated. For uses like writing automation or making live performance tweaks it requires moving the knobs to the current setting of anything you plan to adjust before you play any notes. Otherwise you'll get the sudden jumps.

[guavadude]

On the Virus C, yes I’m ok with it obviously not recalling, although I didn’t know Ableton did that, cool. I can’t figure out how to have the virus mapped for say ADSR and filter cutoff and resonance, for each VI I use. 
 

in the video I posted, his icon is working for each synth without having to create a separate controller mapping or LEARN each time. That’s what I can’t figure out. Do I have to use Bome for this to happen?

 

in the comments of his video you’ll see people asking “how to do this in Logic” but he didn’t answer. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by guavadude

[oscwilde]

8 minutes ago, guavadude said:

Do I have to use Bome for this to happen?

No.
Mapping can be done in Logic - or, in the case of the Behringer (and presumably the Icon) - mapping is automatic.
On devices like these - or like the Nektar Panorama keyboards - you press a button to switch "modes"...mix, plug-in, EQ, Sends, etc. and the control surface switches all knobs, faders, and potentially some buttons to control a plug-in (instrument or effect), EQ, to control volume, pan, mute, solo, rec arm, etc. on 8 channels, a.s.o.
You use "bank" or "single" buttons to move between groups of (or single) channels/plug-in parameters.
The arrow keys are used to navigate between tracks or regions in the Main window....or to zoom the display.
Function keys can be assigned to tools, for screensets, to create/delete or navigate markers, undo/redo/enter/exit, etc.
Some buttons/controls are permanently assigned - regardless of the active "mode" - such as the transport/jog wheel.

It's basically a souped-up version of what you can do with the Mixface, with better feedback from Logic (screens for each fader/encoder).

[guavadude]

X-touch video was helpful. It’s using MCU and the knobs wake up for each plugin, nice. 

But what about cc1 mod wheel data on a Kontakt string track, how do I get that routed to the X-touch fader so it’s moving, so I can touch and edit the cc1?

Edited December 1, 2023 by guavadude

[guavadude]

Sidebar…On controllers I never use the transport, can I get the plugin MCU controls if I use just the X touch extender? 

Edited December 1, 2023 by guavadude

[guavadude]

So in a nutshell,  how do I get midi data to the X touch faders like he did in the video?

[oscwilde]

24 minutes ago, guavadude said:

can I get the plugin MCU controls if I use just the X touch extender? 

Yes and no....
The extender will follow what's happening in Logic....but you need to initiate this with a mouse/key commands....which kind of defeats the purpose of a control surface in my mind.
 

25 minutes ago, guavadude said:

how do I get midi data to the X touch faders like he did in the video

It's automatic. The XTouch is a "dumb" box, so all of the things it does are per instructions from the DAW or plug-in.
If a plug-in doesn't "expose" a particular parameter, then the XT "can't" see it.

The XT has an automation write mode - so you can "ride" faders (or use encoders) to write ANY data exposed by the channel/plugs inserted on the channel....regardles of channel strip type.

If using an instrument channel strip with say ES1 and Tape Delay inserted....every parameter of both the ES1 and the Tape Delay plug-in will be available to tweak or to record as automation data.
By default, these parameters are typically mapped to the encoders, but there is a "flip" button that assigns the encoder parameter to the corresponding fader.
In the ES1, for example, cutoff/resonance may be assigned to encoders 7 and 8, which you can record tweaks with as automation....then you use the bank up button to access the ADSR parameters assigned to encoders 13-16...which you'd prefer to set with faders....so hit the flip button...et voila - faders 13-16 are now the controllers of these ES1 parameters.

Do you have an iPad?

[JakobP]

1 hour ago, guavadude said:

But what about cc1 mod wheel data on a Kontakt string track, how do I get that routed to the X-touch fader so it’s moving, so I can touch and edit the cc1?

I don't believe that's possible but I'd be happy to be proved wrong 🙂 To have the faders "ride" midi cc data something custom built is needed I think... (if possible at all)

Edited December 1, 2023 by JakobP

[guavadude]

3 hours ago, JakobP said:

I don't believe that's possible but I'd be happy to be proved wrong 🙂 To have the faders "ride" midi cc data something custom built is needed I think... (if possible at all)

This is what I’m hoping to discover. In the video he sure made it happen. Bome translator part I get, how he’s using Cubase is the question. Can Logic do that as well somehow. This functionality sure seems to be what composers are asking for again and again. If the video guy has sorted it with Cubase, seems like there could be a path to sort it in Logic. 
 

I guess if I get the Xtouch extender only I lose the flip function? 

[guavadude]

@oscwilde if you have the x-touch, can you please try to get CC1 to the fader. 

 

[enossified]

10 hours ago, guavadude said:

On the Virus C, yes I’m ok with it obviously not recalling, although I didn’t know Ableton did that, cool. I can’t figure out how to have the virus mapped for say ADSR and filter cutoff and resonance, for each VI I use. 

Most third party plugins support MIDI learn. In that case, just keep your Virus as is and use MIDI learn to map the controls. 

For Logic’s native plugins (RetroSynth, Sampler, Alchemy) if you only need to map a few parameters, mapping the Virus knobs to Smart Controls is quick and simple.

 

[oscwilde]

5 hours ago, guavadude said:

if you have the x-touch

Don't have one, but have used one a fair bit. Think @des99 has one.
Had the original LC/XT/C4 units which are essentially the same devices, functionally.

[des99]

It's not possible on the XT I found, at least directly. (I'm talking about MCU modes here, which are generally the most complete implementation for Logic).

I'm doing this from memory, although there was a GS thread iirc where I was documenting this with someone else who was also interested in hacking this up.

The fader sends PB messages which correspond to the channel fader. When you automate the volume, the fader on the selected track will follow automation. It's the only thing it does by default (other than the master fader mode, which isn't that useful). Not everything the MCU does is implemented by the XT-one, eg you can't do things like fader flip, or access plugin/instrument edit modes - it simply doesn't have the physical buttons on the unit itself.

So I wanted to hack mine to be able to use the fader to write, and follow *any* automation parameter. I was successful up to a point, by hacking the controller assignments, using the not-useful master fader mode to instead control AQA (there was some subtleties in how to do this, it required a bit of finagling to convince Logic to work otherwise it would get a bit confused), and therefore write automation for the selected parameter as expected.

This works (although there is a feedback wrinkle that I couldn't fix with a Logic-only solution, so I rigged up a simple MIDIPipe to echo the fader data it generates back to the XT-one directly, otherwise it decides the fader isn't being used and resets it to the last known good value it stored previously - usually zero. Bit rude, but this is how they implement a fader reset when you quit your DAW).

However, I didn't have success in playback of the written/selected AQA automation to move the fader for that parameter. It was a few years ago I was hacking this up, it's possible the behaviour might have changed, but while it should in theory have worked, there was some black box behaviour, possibly in the MCU control surface module, that was blocking the feedback of automation data to control the fader. While it was a shame, it was still better than nothing to be able to use the fader to write automation for any selected parameter, rather than only doing this for volume. Not having it follow on playback wasn't a deal-breaker.

Maybe I'll revisit this some day and see if anything has changed (or whether I missed something), or whether anything better can be done.

(Yes, I also have a couple of real MCUs, other devices pretending to be MCU's, and even written a software app that mimics an MCU so I've got a pretty good idea of how the communication works, apart from some of the more opaque behaviours of the MCU control surface module...)

[guavadude]

Have you seen the new controllers from Icon that are just now being released? The Icon P1M, P1X and the one I'm really interested in is the single fader P1 Nano. 

https://iconproaudio.com/product/p1-nano/

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on this little guy and see what I can make happen. Nice to have the help from the gurus in this thread! 

[guavadude]

3 hours ago, enossified said:

Most third party plugins support MIDI learn. In that case, just keep your Virus as is and use MIDI learn to map the controls. 

For Logic’s native plugins (RetroSynth, Sampler, Alchemy) if you only need to map a few parameters, mapping the Virus knobs to Smart Controls is quick and simple.

 

When I tried to use the Virus as a controller before it seems like Smart Controls is the best or at least easiest solution. The problem is not enough knobs. I wonder why there's a limit. Might be worth an ask to the Logic team if they'd consider expanding to a higher number. Otherwise trying to have a controller mapped to work on several different synths turns into a mess but I'll keep trying. 

[enossified]

19 hours ago, guavadude said:

Otherwise trying to have a controller mapped to work on several different synths turns into a mess but I'll keep trying. 

That's why I use a Nektar Panorama P6 keyboard, it’s premapped at the factory to all the Logic instruments and audio FX as well as Smart Controls (first 8 knobs only). It has a single motorized fader that can be used for track volume, track pan or any parameter the mouse pointer is hovering over…great for automation.

[rAC]

@guavadude - the X-Touch is capable of everything the video above shows ‘out of the box’. Logic Pro 10.8+ has included support for colour on the X-Touch channel strips. I’ve been slack in updating this following

 

but one thing to keep in mind is that unlike the smaller (or the X-Touch One?) compact version is that the X-Touch does not have a MIDI mode it is either a HUI mode controller or a MCU mode controller.

If you really need something that can do MIDI too try and find an old BCF2000 - which can.

[hmowday]

So what is the best solution here for a motorised fader that follows not only volume but follows CC1 and 11? (As the CC's move up and down, so does the fader)

Can the baby X-Touch one do it?

[des99]

5 hours ago, hmowday said:

Can the baby X-Touch one do it?

No.