Would I have fewer latency issues in Logic with a better interface?

[smallmultiples]

Up until recently I used a 2018 iMac with a 2018 Presonus Audiobox and very rarely got an latency issue when recording. Then I upgraded last month to a brand new Mac Mini and have since gotten the issue frequently.

Example: I have two mic's positioned to record acoustic guitar in two separate channels simultaneously. Whenever I do anything like that, suddenly there's a slight delay in the sound in my headphones. (I have tried Low Latency Mode but when I do that, it removes the effect of reverb plugins or whatever else I have running as well as reducing volume). Sometimes I adjust the buffer up or down but only sometimes does that actually fix the issue.

I know this is maybe an interface question and not a Logic issue, but perhaps a faster or more modern Thunderbolt-enabled interface would help?

[JakobP]

9 hours ago, smallmultiples said:

I know this is maybe an interface question and not a Logic issue, but perhaps a faster or more modern Thunderbolt-enabled interface would help?

No, probably not, it's usually down to the choice of plugins. As an example, Logics Adaptive Limiter adds between 50-200 ms latency depending on its "Lookahead" setting. You can't get away from that latency unless you use LLM or remove the plugin(s) completely from the project.

[des99]

12 hours ago, smallmultiples said:

(I have tried Low Latency Mode but when I do that, it removes the effect of reverb plugins or whatever else I have running as well as reducing volume)

Yes, it removes any plugins that are causing a reasonable amount of latency, so you can track without delays. If you want to use latency-inducing plugins while recording, and monitor through them, you'll have latency - this is a fundamental fact about the way these plugins work, and why interfaces offer a direct monitoring option, to monitor in hardware on the interface, rather than route the audio through the DAW, processed with plugins, and then back to the interface and your monitoring system.

[smallmultiples]

3 hours ago, des99 said:

Yes, it removes any plugins that are causing a reasonable amount of latency, so you can track without delays. If you want to use latency-inducing plugins while recording, and monitor through them, you'll have latency - this is a fundamental fact about the way these plugins work, and why interfaces offer a direct monitoring option, to monitor in hardware on the interface, rather than route the audio through the DAW, processed with plugins, and then back to the interface and your monitoring system.

That's the weird thing though. When I used the iMac, I never had this problem, even when running multiple plugins.

Also in the example I gave (trying to record simple acoustic guitar with two mic's running), I was running *no* plugins at all 🤔

[des99]

It's not how many plugins you use, or which computer, it's *which* plugins you use, as any given plugin could require zero latency, or a tiny bit, or a lot, and there's also the rest of the project to bear in mind, because if *other* tracks, busses etc have latency-inducing plugins, the entire stream has to be compensated for.

So all the cumulative latency that can't be compensated for will result in some delays, and it all depends on what's going on in your given project.

22 minutes ago, smallmultiples said:

Also in the example I gave (trying to record simple acoustic guitar with two mic's running), I was running *no* plugins at all

In the example you gave, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you said low latency worked, but turned off the reverb plugins, and you didn't like that.

Try direct monitoring while recording, you might prefer that workflow, and you avoid the latency of monitoring through Logic.

[smallmultiples]

On 12/2/2023 at 12:05 PM, des99 said:

it's *which* plugins you use, as any given plugin could require zero latency, or a tiny bit, or a lot, and there's also the rest of the project to bear in mind, because if *other* tracks, busses etc have latency-inducing plugins, the entire stream has to be compensated for.

Just to be super super clear here though — I am currently recording a project that has two acoustic guitars and an electric guitar. The acoustic guitars are using a send for the native Silververb plugin and the native Delay Designer plugin, and that's it. There's no weird third party plugins running or anything excessive. 

Also I have been making very layered ambient music with lots of plugins running throughout the various Logic projects for 5+ years with zero latency problems. It was only when I got the new Mac Mini that this started. I'm just really confused. The projects I'm creating are not particularly resource-intensive.

I did purchase a couple plugins from Waves (though I'm not running them) and the menu picker loads a bunch of plugin previews - would that be running in the background possibly and slowing anything down? 

[David Nahmani]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:58 AM, smallmultiples said:

Sometimes I adjust the buffer up or down but only sometimes does that actually fix the issue.

The buffer should be as small as your system can handle. Try to set them to 32. Do you still experience latency? 

[des99]

8 hours ago, smallmultiples said:

The acoustic guitars are using a send for the native Silververb plugin and the native Delay Designer plugin, and that's it.

If that's all you have, and you don't have any other plugins going, or on the main mix bus, you shouldn't have any plugin induced latency, and low latency mode should not change anything (as there are no latent plugins to disable). As David says - what is your audio buffer size?

8 hours ago, smallmultiples said:

Also I have been making very layered ambient music with lots of plugins running throughout the various Logic projects for 5+ years with zero latency problems. It was only when I got the new Mac Mini that this started. I'm just really confused. The projects I'm creating are not particularly resource-intensive.

Again, latency is not down to how big plugins are, how many you use, how RAM or CPU intensive your projects are, or which computer you use, but all how *which* plugins you use, in which context. Some latency can be invisibly compensated for (for example, if you have an audio track, with a plugin that requires 500ms of latency, in this case, Logic can just read out the audio track 500ms *earlier* than normal, and everything lines up on time), and other latency can not (eg when signals are being processing in real time).

So the situation is complex, and highly project and plugin dependent. Logic will show you the latency any given plugin is using when you hover over it's insert.

It's really important when working with DAWs you understand the various causes of latency, how it works in practice, and what tools you have to work around the issue - all DAWs are fundamentally the same in this regard.

 

 

[Dewdman42]

Someone really needs to write a long and exhaustive article to post in the article section of this forum about LogicPro latency, how and why, all the ways it happens or doesn't happen and how to work through the project.  This topic always comes up over and over again, would be a lot easier to just have one nice long article that truly explains every aspect of LogicPro latency management and just point folks to it.

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Dewdman42

[smallmultiples]

19 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

Someone really needs to write a long and exhaustive article to post in the article section of this forum about LogicPro latency, how and why, all the ways it happens or doesn't happen and how to work through the project.  This topic always comes up over and over again, would be a lot easier to just have one nice long article that truly explains every aspect of LogicPro latency management and just point folks to it.

That's the frustrating part. I definitely get how latency works. I'm just not understanding why I recorded with my previous iMac for six years and never encountered latency issues no matter what I was recording. It's only since getting the Mac Mini. So the concept isn't new, it's just that it's cropping up in ways I would not have expected (very simple project, 1-2 native plugins). 

[Dewdman42]

it's very unlikely that the problem you are experiencing has anything to do with the fact you are using a new and different mac and more likely in the details of how your project is setup.  If you want to share some problematic projects some of us here can probably take a look at it to help you figure it out.

Most macs today have decent audio with decent low latency even with built in audio, and most modern audio interfaces have decent low latency, anyway the difference would only be by a few milliseconds and hardly noticeable.  if you are having large amounts of noticeably latency its far more likely to be something related to the way your project is setup with whatever plugins you are using and the use of AUX channels and plugins on the master bus, etc..  this is user driven problem more then likely.  

[smallmultiples]

13 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

The buffer should be as small as your system can handle. Try to set them to 32. Do you still experience latency? 

Yes — whenever I notice the problem, I try the buffer at all sizes, including the lowest, and nothing changes. Essentially once the problem starts in a project, nothing makes it go away. 

[sunbrother]

What version of Logic are you using when you have this issue (higher than expected latency persists until Logic restarted)? Would it happen to be 10.8 or 10.8.1?

Edited December 5, 2023 by sunbrother

[oscwilde]

19 hours ago, smallmultiples said:

The acoustic guitars are using a send for the native Silververb plugin and the native Delay Designer plugin, and that's it.

In parallel on two busses or chained on a single bus?
What happens to timing when you bypass or remove either plug-in (may be hard to gauge with the obvious sonic changes)?

Is it something specific to the DD tap settings?
Filter slope/pan/res, pan, spread, transpose values can lead to some pretty weird places - which is the point of them 😉 - so wondering if there's a "rogue" tap or two that's causing an effect that you're perceiving as latency?

[redgreenblue]

Having a full description of your setup and which version of Logic you are using would be helpful. is the audio interface connected straight to the computer or to a hub? If to a hub, have you tried connecting it directly? 

[smallmultiples]

I really appreciate the feedback yall. Tomorrow I will start a file from scratch, add parts, wait for the latency issue to begin, then upload the file to Dropbox if anyone wants to check it out. I will be more careful to note what triggers it.

No idea if this is related but wanted to add — a few years ago I bought three plugins from Waves which I ran on the old iMac. When I set up the new Mac Mini in August, the Waves installation process seemed like it had changed in the meantime where I had to install a desktop app and even though I only paid for three plugins, when I browse the Waves item, I get a zillion (demo) plugins in the menu (see attached). Even though I'm rarely running the plugins could this be related? 

As far as version, I'm running Logic 10.8, and then Sonoma 14.1.1.

3 hours ago, oscwilde said:

In parallel on two busses or chained on a single bus?
What happens to timing when you bypass or remove either plug-in (may be hard to gauge with the obvious sonic changes)?

Is it something specific to the DD tap settings?
Filter slope/pan/res, pan, spread, transpose values can lead to some pretty weird places - which is the point of them 😉 - so wondering if there's a "rogue" tap or two that's causing an effect that you're perceiving as latency?

Interesting... gonna try to add and remove those and report back... thanks!

[sunbrother]

Definitely keep on troubleshooting, but note that there are scattered/uncommon reports of Logic 10.8+ getting into some situations of exhibiting higher than average latency temporarily. Perhaps it could be linked to the work they did to fix sidechain latency compensation… I had a project that when I opened it in 10.7.9 it had a few ms of input monitoring latency but in 10.8 it had an extreme amount of latency.

Edited December 6, 2023 by sunbrother

[RockStarCD]

You can always put your effects on a bus and then right click or ctrl+click that bus on the track you are recording to and select “Low Latency Safe”. This has always worked for me in Low Latency mode. You also have a lot more control over dry signal vs effect this way. 9 times out of 10 I route my effects this way.

[rAC]

On 12/6/2023 at 4:38 AM, Dewdman42 said:

Someone really needs to write a long and exhaustive article to post in the article section of this forum about LogicPro latency, how and why, all the ways it happens or doesn't happen and how to work through the project.  This topic always comes up over and over again, would be a lot easier to just have one nice long article that truly explains every aspect of LogicPro latency management and just point folks to it.

@Dewdman42Volunteering?

[Dewdman42]

I think there are a number of people that could contribute to such a thing in a group effort perhaps, but its needed.

[smallmultiples]

For anyone interested to try, this is a zip file of the project in question. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s5iqhs6rx1mcol4/latency issue.zip?dl=0

The "Take 1" track lane is where I'm experiencing latency issues (although not crazy, but enough to notice). 

The buffer size is currently set to 32 for me in Logic. I was also told that increasing the sample rate of the project from 48 kHz could help. Appreciate the help.

[smallmultiples]

Curious if anyone able to play on the Take 1 track and experience the latency issue?