Automation mode menu, "Record automation with MIDI regions", what is this for?

[JohnnyHands]

I just noticed this item in the Automation mode menu (for track headers/channel strips.) What is it for?  I've never had any problem recording automation with MIDI regions, and I don't think I ever checked this. Am I mistaken?

 

Note: searching for the following in Logic's 'Logic Pro User Guide' does not return any results: Record automation with MIDI regions

[des99]

Recording MIDI, and recording automation are different things. When using Region-based Automation (which is different to Track-based Automation), you need a region already existing to record the automation moves into. When you're recording MIDI at the same time, the region hasn't yet been created while you are recording (the region only is created after you stop), so there is no region to record automation into at the same time.

This feature gets around that, to enable you to record MIDI and Region-based automation data at the same time (which otherwise isn't possible).

[David Nahmani]

40 minutes ago, des99 said:

This feature gets around that, to enable you to record MIDI and Region-based automation data at the same time (which otherwise isn't possible).

I wonder, why not get around that by enabling you to record them at the same time by simply using "Latch" or "Touch" while recording? 

[des99]

20 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

I wonder, why not get around that by enabling you to record them at the same time by simply using "Latch" or "Touch" while recording? 

I don't know, but there's usually good reason for making these design decisions, that we don't think through when just thinking about a feature on it's surface-level, or when we don't know the internals and the practicalities of how to implement a feature.

For example, perhaps they thought there are use cases where the old behaviour is useful, and wanted to retain this, but also add a mode to change the behaviour. Your guess is as good as mine...

[David Nahmani]

Yes or perhaps they wanted a quick and easy way to automatically record automation when pressing record, without even having to choose an automation mode. Especially since that setting is enabled by default for both MIDI and Audio regions. 

[Jordi Torres]

1 hour ago, des99 said:

Recording MIDI, and recording automation are different things. When using Region-based Automation (which is different to Track-based Automation), you need a region already existing to record the automation moves into. When you're recording MIDI at the same time, the region hasn't yet been created while you are recording (the region only is created after you stop), so there is no region to record automation into at the same time.

This feature gets around that, to enable you to record MIDI and Region-based automation data at the same time (which otherwise isn't possible).

I'm not in front of Logic right now, but I'm pretty sure last time I tested it, this feature allows you to record plugin and/or channel strip parameters that will end up in a region even if no region is already there.

J.

[David Nahmani]

7 minutes ago, Jordi Torres said:

this feature allows you to record plugin and/or channel strip parameters that will end up in a region even if no region is already there.

 

Yes, that's basically what @des99 was saying. He was saying that without that function, recording automation inside a region while you're recording that new region wasn't possible. 

[des99]

3 hours ago, Jordi Torres said:

I'm not in front of Logic right now, but I'm pretty sure last time I tested it, this feature allows you to record plugin and/or channel strip parameters that will end up in a region even if no region is already there.

Exactly. 👍

4 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

Yes or perhaps they wanted a quick and easy way to automatically record automation when pressing record, without even having to choose an automation mode. Especially since that setting is enabled by default for both MIDI and Audio regions. 

You still have to choose an automation mode to record automation in RBA, afaik...

Record records the MIDI, but it doesn't record automation. To do *both* at the same time, you must be in record *and* latch/touch etc (at least that's how I remember it working, it's possible it behaves differently.)

[David Nahmani]

28 minutes ago, des99 said:

Record records the MIDI, but it doesn't record automation. To do *both* at the same time, you must be in record *and* latch/touch etc (at least that's how I remember it working, it's possible it behaves differently.)

Well no, that's the thing. Get a fresh new install of Logic Pro, with default settings. The only steps you take are to:

1. Create a new empty project with either a MIDI or Audio track.
2. Record either a MIDI or audio region while you move the volume or pan.

... and automation is recorded (in Read mode). 

I find that really confusing, but apparently that is by design, and not a bug. 

[studioj]

I think I've run into some buggy behavior with this new feature. Rogue volume automation that I can't seem to locate, etc...  I wish it defaulted to OFF. 

[David Nahmani]

2 minutes ago, studioj said:

I can't seem to locate

To find that automation, in Automation view, click the "Track" button so it says "Region", and you'll see it.

[studioj]

Just now, David Nahmani said:

To find that automation, in Automation view, click the "Track" button so it says "Region", and you'll see it.

right but recently I've been like wtf is going on with my volume, and I realize some volume was recorded into the region unintentionally. maybe I adjusted volume fader after hitting record on an instrument track or something, I'm not sure. I think it's a weird thing to default to ON. 

[David Nahmani]

3 minutes ago, studioj said:

I think it's a weird thing to default to ON. 

 Totally. It makes no sense. 

[des99]

1 hour ago, David Nahmani said:

The only steps you take are to:

Oh... that's.. um... hmm. I'll have a play on my system, but indeed that is counter to how I understood it worked (and while it's not something I use a lot, I have investigated this behaviour before when we've discussed recording with automation.) Thanks for the correction, if that is indeed it's behaviour, I'll need to update my knowledge base on this, especially if "record automation with MIDI regions" *actually* kinda means "also record automation using the sequencer's record feature"...

1 hour ago, David Nahmani said:

I find that really confusing, but apparently that is by design, and not a bug. 

Indeed. Recording events into the automation system, using the *sequencer's* record button, seems to be counter to the point of those two systems, and confuses them imo. While I understand that sometimes people who aren't clear on how the systems work, and it's just easier to do what they expect, I'm not sure it helps in the long run, because it just mushes two different concepts together, confuses them, and in some modes they work one way, and in other modes they work counter to that.

I guess a lot of these concepts got a bit confused when RBA was introduced, which sits somewhere between the sequencer, and the automation system, rather than more clearly separated like the sequencer, and the track automation is.

I'll have a play...

Edit: Ok, yes I see. I'm not sure I agree with this implementation decision, but presumably there was a reason for it. I think it's better to leave automation being recording solely by the automation modes, but I guess there are benefits if you use this workflow a lot to not have to stay in an automation write mode while you're recording parts, in case of other unwanted automation changes.

Knowledge base updated - thanks! 👍

(I'm running out of available memory space though - I need a good brain defrag, I guess! Old wetware, running an outdated OS... 😉 )