How to control both TBA and RBA with X-Touch ONE

[Breenfactor]

Hey, everyone,

Couple years ago I started this topic:

 and @des99 was the real MVP as he managed to unveil all the secrets of AQA, Midi routing and MidiPipe alike.

I remember that we managed to make AQA work for both TBA and RBA, but now that I'm checking it again (years after) the solution that we found only works for TBA.

With AQA and my X-Touch ONE in "master mode" I can only control volume, pan and stuff like that within the TBA environment, but I would really love to be able to control RBA as well, in particular modulation and expression parameters.

Does anyone know how to be able to do that and get that little cherry on the top?

[des99]

I had a quick look here. I think there's something a bit flaky about this - in RBA mode, the AQA assignment tends to stick to the first learned parameter, rather than change to control the selected automation parameter (from my quick testing).

It still works ok in TBA mode. So it might be just an AQA+RBA combination bug, perhaps...

Does anyone else here use AQA in RBA mode? Does it work ok for you?

[Breenfactor]

Hey, Des!

For me, the X-TOUCH in "master mode" only works for TBA parameters. 
If I try to learn a RBA one, it doesn't even register.
In AQA edit window, the parameters that are learned are only TBA ones, like Volume, Pan, etc.

The thing is that I remember that we made it work years ago, 
But now that I changed my Mac, I had to do the whole process again and it doesn't work anymore for RBA, like modulation/expression, etc.

Is there something we can try troubleshooting?

Here's a sc of my AQA editor.

[des99]

14 minutes ago, Breenfactor said:

The thing is that I remember that we made it work years ago, 

Yes, and maybe it did work then, I'm just saying the current version of Logic (10.8.1), AQA doesn't seem to be behaving with RBA - like I say, this might be a more recent bug in Logic, if it worked earlier (I haven't checked the behaviour with earlier versions).

This is nothing to do with the XT-One - it's a general thing with AQA + RBA.

The only thing that needs to be "learned" (once) is the MIDI message you are using for AQA. Logic uses this to drive whatever the selected parameter is in TBA mode, but doesn't seen to do the same for RBA (it only uses the initial parameter, and doesn't change to control any further parameter you select).

Basically, I see the same behaviour you see in 10.8.1, regardless of what I'm using to drive the AQA feature.

What version of Logic were you using previously, when you recall it worked?

[Breenfactor]

I think I was on 1.7.1, when it used to work.

The thing is that in my case, it doesn't even control the initial parameter for RBA.
If I try learning one in RBA, it doesn't register and the one still controlled is the latest TBA one used.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Breenfactor

[des99]

I checked the behaviour in 10.6.3, and I still see the exact same behaviour. AQA always controls the first parameter you select in RBA mode, and if you change the automation lane to a different parameter, your AQA control doesn't control the new parameter (as it would in TBA mode), it continues to control the initial parameter.

I just think it's something that doesn't work as intended, or AQA doesn't work great for RBA (perhaps it never has - I'd need to go back further to check!) I'd submit a bug report, personally - I can't see any reason why this *shouldn't* work as it does for TBA mode.

 

[polanoid]

11 hours ago, Breenfactor said:

the parameters that are learned are only TBA ones, like Volume, Pan, etc.

 If I may chime in here, there’s no such thing as “TBA parameters” and “RBA parameters”. All automatable parameters can be controlled by RBA, TBA, or even by a combination of both. The only thing exclusive to RBA is MIDI CC messages on software instrument tracks.

Edited December 11, 2023 by polanoid

[polanoid]

6 hours ago, des99 said:

I checked the behaviour in 10.6.3, and I still see the exact same behaviour.

I can even trace this back to 10.4.0 (in 10.3.3 and older versions I can’t even get AQA to work correctly for TBA). So, a bug, but hardly a new one.

Edited December 11, 2023 by polanoid

[Breenfactor]

Do you guys think it is actually possible to control modulation and expression, CC1 and CC11, within TBA instead of RBA?

Whatever possible solutions, I would be happy to follow all the necessary steps.

[des99]

1 minute ago, Breenfactor said:

Do you guys think it is actually possible to control modulation and expression, CC1 and CC11, within TBA instead of RBA?

No, because automation is not MIDI data. Automation is changing Logic parameters, it has nothing to do with MIDI. Track automation stores automation data, regular regions store MIDI data.

[Breenfactor]

Damn..

Still can’t believe that the solution you offered in the first topic apparently used to work, back then.

It would definitely be a game changer if it could be managed to control whatever RBA parameter with the X-Touch ONE single fader.

[des99]

17 minutes ago, Breenfactor said:

Still can’t believe that the solution you offered in the first topic apparently used to work, back then.

Are you *sure* this used to work? Investigations have shown so far that RBA didn't work with AQA going back as far as possibly 10.3 or maybe earlier. I'm wondering if you're misremembering this, perhaps? Or you only used it to control the first parameter (where it works), and didn't switch to other parameters (which don't).

Anyway - this is a Logic problem with RBA and AQA - which controller you're using to control AQA doesn't matter (but yes, I agree that this is a Logic bug I'd like to see fixed, although personally I don't tend to use RBA much.)

[polanoid]

46 minutes ago, Breenfactor said:

Do you guys think it is actually possible to control modulation and expression, CC1 and CC11, within TBA instead of RBA?

Indeed it is possible for “classic” External MIDI tracks (not via the External Instrument plug-in). So a hack would be to create an External MIDI track, create the MIDI CC “TBA” you want and then reassign a software instrument to the track. No idea if that would be useful to you though.

[polanoid]

43 minutes ago, Breenfactor said:

It would definitely be a game changer if it could be managed to control whatever RBA parameter with the X-Touch ONE single fader.

You can, of course, just not with AQA

[Breenfactor]

@des99 Yep, I am definitely sure that it used to work, as I remember being so damn happy after we managed to set it up, years ago. I also remember automating the CC1 and CC11 through my X-Touch ONE is several projects, so I can safely say that it used to work.
Unfortunately, this could be a Logic issue after the several updates that came out since then, and also due to the fact that I am not using the same Mac as before, so maybe some settings I had store there will be never replicated, so to speak.

 @polanoid Unfortunately, that solution wouldn't fit very well in my workflow.

So, without using AQA, how would you be able to control CC1 and CC11 with my X-Touch ONE?
I also use a X-Touch Compact, which is the main one I actually use to write modulation and expression with, but I also want to have another independent fader to move with my right hand when I have to do adjustments.
 

[des99]

26 minutes ago, polanoid said:

You can, of course, just not with AQA

No, the XT-One doesn't give any ability to get to plugin parameters (unlike a full MCU).

And even hacking the controller assignments, you're limited in what you can practically do in this regard - it's simply not designed for it. You could stop using the XT-One as a control surface, and then transform the fader data (which is 14-bit pitch bend by default) into MIDI data, but that's basically removing much of the utility of the XT in that case, so it doesn't seem worth it.

[JakobP]

Afaik, the midi fx scripter can be used to convert automation to midi cc data, which should make it possible to use AQA to send midi cc to the instrument...

[Breenfactor]

So, since I gave up on the "X-Touch ONE + RBA dream", now I have another question, which perhaps will end up having another negative answer.

Is it possible to map the only knob in the X-Touch ONE to do the same thing as the fader?
The fader, however, can be set in master mode and is filtered by MidiPipe, whereas the knob cannot.


 

[des99]

4 minutes ago, Breenfactor said:

Is it possible to map the only knob in the X-Touch ONE to do the same thing as the fader?

You can't change the MIDI messages the XT sends, so in order to change the functionality of the knob, you'll have to reverse engineer and hack the controller assignments, so all the above I wrote applies - you can modify these things to your needs (within limitations), but it's not trivial.

The MCU supports things like "flip" mode so you can flip the fader and vpot, but these things are not supported on the XT. You could try to implement this, but I'm not sure the value of making the knob do what the fader is already doing... Again, to make a button on the XT do something new, you'll have to figure out how to remove/change the existing functionality, so you can use a button for something new (like flip mode). (It might be possible to use the knob press possibly - I can't really remember the details, I did look at what I could usefully do with the pan knob, but I encountered some issues, iirc.)

If you figure some cool or useful hack out, do let us know what you implemented. 👍

(Also remember that in this context, the only thing Midipipe is doing is echoing back the fader data to the XT-One to cure the "fader reset" problem. It's not really doing any "filtering", other than making sure only the fader data is echoed back, and no other traffic is.)

[polanoid]

1 hour ago, des99 said:

No, the XT-One doesn't give any ability to get to plugin parameters

Why not - via Controller assignments it should work, no? I can get any cheapo MIDI controller to control plug-in parameters that way.

[Breenfactor]

Got it, Des.
All that goes way beyond my knowledge, not gonna lie.
So I will just stick with my X-Touch controlling the TBA parameters and being able to switch from master and normal, without having to give up the possibility to use the X-Touch standard functionalities.

As far as MidiPipe behaviour is concerned, I simplified the idea maybe misusing the term "filtering", but damn if I know what is the main purpose of the used Pipe, after all the time you took years ago to help me through setting it, haha 😄

[des99]

2 hours ago, polanoid said:

Why not - via Controller assignments it should work, no? I can get any cheapo MIDI controller to control plug-in parameters that way.

Yes, but a cheapo MIDI controller is a generic MIDI device, and you'd map a control to a plugin parameter directly. That's completely different from the integrated MCU approach, which has a mechanic for putting the control surface into plugin or instrument edit modes, to make all the plugin parameters accessible and so on.

The second one you can't do, the XT doesn't have the features or buttons for it.

The first manual approach comes back down to controller hacking to change it's behaviour - if you want to stop the pan knob from behaviour as it was designed to do, you have to hack all the controller assignments to first remove all the standard functionality and behaviours. Then you could manually learn the pan knob to one parameter, and continue to change/manually learn to a different plugin parameter everytime time you want to control something else - possible, but basically, a pretty terrible way to work. 😉

And you can't really map up different modes and have different assignments to the pan knob in different, because again, there aren't really free buttons on the XT you can use to switch modes (you *can* use a separate controller to do this, but then you're splitting functionality over multiple devices, not just on one, which may or may not be workable. I use both approaches here.)

I think there were some other limitations when I looked at this, but as I say, I can't remember the details without looking at it again, and I'm deep in the weeds of control surface preference hacking right now... 😉

[des99]

2 hours ago, Breenfactor said:

As far as MidiPipe behaviour is concerned, I simplified the idea maybe misusing the term "filtering", but damn if I know what is the main purpose of the used Pipe, after all the time you took years ago to help me through setting it, haha

Heh! It's actually fairly simple - when you move the fader, MP takes a copy of that MIDI data the fader sends, and sends it back to the XT-One. This means the unit always updates it's internal state of the fader position when it's changed. If you don't do this, whenever you move the fader, after about a second, it will reset to zero (turn right down) - which is irritating and not helpful!

[polanoid]

10 hours ago, des99 said:

Yes, but a cheapo MIDI controller is a generic MIDI device, and you'd map a control to a plugin parameter directly. That's completely different from the integrated MCU approach, which has a mechanic for putting the control surface into plugin or instrument edit modes, to make all the plugin parameters accessible and so on.

Understood. I guess I was confused because AQA and RBA vs. TBA were mentioned in this thread, while AQA won’t help you with plug-in parameter control anyway when using the X-Touch One then, regardless of RBA or TBA being used.

[des99]

44 minutes ago, polanoid said:

I guess I was confused because AQA and RBA vs. TBA were mentioned in this thread, while AQA won’t help you with plug-in parameter control anyway when using the X-Touch One then, regardless of RBA or TBA being used.

No, this is incorrect. I'll do a quick summary of where we are:

Out of the box, the only Logic parameters the XT-One will control are volume (fader) and pan (knob), and the Master Fader in a special mode, where pressing the "Master" button on the XT-One makes the fader instead control Logic's master fader, instead of the selected channel's fader. You can automate with these, but that's it.

The hack/mod/extension I did changes the relatively useless master fader mode into something more useful, so in this mode, the fader instead controls AQA, and thus can control, and automate, any selected automation parameter on the selected track.

This works fine in TBA mode - you can choose whatever automation parameter for the selected track, and control/automate it with the fader - and therefore, it means you can use the XT-One to control/automate any Logic or plugin parameter, which is much more useful feature. So in this regard, AQA absolutely gives you plugin control.

In RBA mode (and this is the buggy behaviour we are talking about), it works for the first selected automation parameter, but if you choose a different automation parameter, the AQA assignment will continue to control the first selected automation parameter - it "sticks" on that parameter, and won't change, which makes it less useful. This seems to be a Logic bug, as it happens regardless of the controller you use for AQA.

[polanoid]

58 minutes ago, des99 said:

This seems to be a Logic bug, as it happens regardless of the controller you use for AQA.

Yes, we had already discussed that above

58 minutes ago, des99 said:

The hack/mod/extension I did changes the relatively useless master fader mode into something more useful, so in this mode, the fader instead controls AQA

I would have thought that controller assignments could be used as well when AQA can be used, but of course I don’t know your hack.

[des99]

10 minutes ago, polanoid said:

Yes, we had already discussed that above

Yes, I was making a concise thread summary just to spell it out clearly.

 

8 minutes ago, polanoid said:

I would have thought that controller assignments could be used as well when AQA can be used, but of course I don’t know your hack.

Yes, instead of just selecting the automation parameter you want to control on the track, you could manually learn a single assignment to a given plugin parameter, and when you want to control a different parameter, overwrite that assignment and learn a new one and do it that way - but that's exactly the kind of painful workflow AQA was designed to avoid... 😉 

After all, AQA is simply a controller assignment to control the visible automation parameter on the track, rather than a controller assignment to control only one specific plugin parameter.

I don't know of any other way one MIDI control assignment can easily control/automate any automatable parameter, so I can't think of a better implementation of this within the constraints of what's available on the XT-One.