Advice on the best setup for live performance using Logic

[Danny Wyatt]

This is my laptop

This is my interface:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/393375-REG/M_Audio_9900_51076_00_Fast_Track_Pro_USB.html

I have an Alesis drum kit and I'm using the Drum Kit plugin in Logic using a few instances of Scripter to make it as human as possible.

The only buffer size I can use without cracking too much is 256, but the issue is, my playing becomes sloppy, because I'm trying to compensate for that latency. And this is just using Drum Kit and 2 instances of Sampler for now, but I will build more complex arrangements with synths, FX, etc, so 256 will most definitely suck too.

Eventually I want to invest on a MacMini and just use that for live performances without any other apps installed, etc. Just Logic. I want it to be as flawless as possible, as low latency as possible. What would you prioritize?

- Another interface (which, taking into account what it's being done - no recording, just playback)
- Prioritize processor speed (which?)
- Prioritize RAM (how much?)

I'm asking this, because I remember reading somewhere here on the forum a while ago that RAM is not always the most important thing, unlike what some people tend to always go for when they need speed. It seems to depend on what we want to achieve.

So in this case, I want a setup that's reliable (no playback issue) and as low latency as possible.

I was looking at the MacMini prices and specs and it seems that the lower model seems more than enough?
The difference between that one and the one above is just disk space, but that's not an issue for me, because I will only have a few Projects there. If I add 16GB of memory, it's $200 more, or 24GB for $400. Is it's worth it or 8GB would be enough?
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m2-chip-with-8-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-256gb#

Other than this, there's nothing that can be added that would make a difference.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Danny Wyatt

[redgreenblue]

Mac minis are a great computer but this would mean having to cart an external display or at a minimum an iPad to use as an external display, plus keyboard and mouse. And then you'd also probably want to have an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) to make sure that the Mini doesn't get turned off when someone trips over the cable. 

Without a dedicated drum/keyboard tech this is going to be a lot to worry about, and I'm going to take a wild guess that you don't have a drum/keyboard tech. 

Or you could go with a MacBook Air, and forget the hassle of the display, keyboard, mouse and UPS. 

For what you are describing even a base model of the Air (or Mini) would work. I believe in buying a computer for the next couple of years, not just now, as such I would recommend 16 gigs of RAM. If you do go for the base model there are GREAT deals for xmas out there. 

I would also recommend taking a look at MainStage instead of Logic. For $30 you get all of Logic's sounds in a more stage friendly version (hence the name) that is used in countless Broadway pits and almost every major band I see live. MainStage isn't the right choice for me, I do VERY complicated stuff in Logic for live work, but for you it is likely the better choice. 

[redgreenblue]

I should add that I was considering going down the Mac mini route for my live show with a small touch screen as I would love it if the audience didn't see a computer onstage but it was just too impractical, and I say this as an IT professional who absolutely could be a keyboard tech.  

As it is I never touch my computer on stage, but I do have to see it. 

[Danny Wyatt]

2 hours ago, redgreenblue said:

Mac minis are a great computer but this would mean having to cart an external display or at a minimum an iPad to use as an external display, plus keyboard and mouse. And then you'd also probably want to have an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) to make sure that the Mini doesn't get turned off when someone trips over the cable.

I thought about those "issues" (such as keyboard, mouse, display) and that wouldn't bother me, if the cost compared to another laptop was significantly lower. Maybe the only issue I could see is the power thing you mentioned, but that could be easily worked around by building a box where the cord would be fixed to it and since it will be mostly me on stage, I don't think anyone would trip over the cable, but I can see how a laptop will always be more secure anyway.

I didn't really think of the MacBook Air initially and after checking the prices, it's not that bad, considering I won't have to worry about a display, keyboard and mouse (and yeah, the power "issue"). Good tip.

2 hours ago, redgreenblue said:

For what you are describing even a base model of the Air (or Mini) would work. I believe in buying a computer for the next couple of years, not just now, as such I would recommend 16 gigs of RAM. If you do go for the base model there are GREAT deals for xmas out there. 

Yes I was thinking of 16GB as well. If the difference to 24GB is not that big, I don't think paying that extra is worth it. What about the M1 vs M2? 

The GPU is for graphics, but does it influence in any way the performance when using Logic when it comes to how fast it works? I saw there's the 8Core GPU and 10 Core GPU.

When it comes to the latency, is that primarily an issue with the interface? Or even if I keep this one I have, having a new MacBook Air with 16GB (M1 or M2) would greatly decrease it? This is my interface' info:

I also thought that having Thunderbolt vs USB 3 will help with latency? So maybe a new interface with Thunderbolt is necessary...

I looked at MainStage in the past and at that time it wasn't the right fit for me. Right now, I need the Drum Kit, but I also need to have the Script as MIDIFX, because that's a big part of what makes my drum kit sound almost like an acoustic kit with all the extra dynamics and "tricks" I added via the Scripter. Does MainStage allow that?
I also need to have access to an arrangement, which I'm not sure MS allows this? It seems to be more like a tool to play with sounds, rather than something where I can build the actual song with regions and tracks. Right?

My set up will not be super complex, but I want to have some flexibility when it comes to have MIDI regions and all the synths so I can control filters, envelopes, and then extra effects. I won't be just the drummer, I will be "the band" so to speak where sometimes I'm playing drums, but sometimes I will be manipulating synths, basses, the tracks themselves, etc.

2 hours ago, redgreenblue said:

As it is I never touch my computer on stage, but I do have to see it.

I will have controllers and my Alesis drum kit and for loading new projects, I will always have to "touch" the computer anyway. I guess the MacBook Air seems like a good option. I have this guy who sold me a second hand laptop that I still have and he's always buying new ones, fixing them, etc, so maybe I can even ask him if he's got any Air for sale.

Appreciate your feedback!

Edited December 18, 2023 by Danny Wyatt

[Danny Wyatt]

I was checking Thunderbolt interfaces and found this page where they say "Thunderbolt audio interfaces offer a super-fast 10Gbps connection allowing a much quicker data transfer rate in comparison to that of USB or Firewire. This technology offers ultra-low latency performance for the recording and playback of audio"

https://www.gear4music.com/Soundcards/Thunderbolt

So that means that the interface won't make much of a difference when it comes to the MIDI latency? That would all be the job of the processor and the RAM?

[redgreenblue]

A good USB-C vs Thunderbolt won't any real difference, it is the same amount of water down a larger pipe. The hardware, the drivers and the computer's ability all make up the latency. RAM doesn't really matter as long as the computer isn't struggling otherwise, and in your case it won't be. Your current audio interface is old school USB, can't really say what the latency would be but a more modern one could be a lot better. One of the advantages to be a crap keyboard player is that latency has never really bothered me and I would run 256. Thanks to having an M1 on stage and an M1 Max in the studio I can run much lower buffers. 

M1 vs M2, doesn't matter, the M1 is a great chip and I'm running my live show in a 13" M1 MacBook Pro, the only difference between that and an Air is the MBP has a fan and the Air doesn't. If you can get a deal on an M1 take it. (especially if you can still get AppleCare for it). 

If you are relying on specialized scrips and want more flexibility with the arrangement then, yes, Logic is the better choice, even more so now with the flexibility of the Live Loops functionality. If you take the time to learn the Environment you can map anything to pretty much anything else, super handy for live work. If they ever take away the Environment then I'm stuck in Logic 10 for the rest...of....my....life. 

With the right combination of controllers, smart programming and a little utility called Keyboard Maestro you can set things up so you don't need to touch the keyboard, or touch it a lot less but it can be a lot of work to set up. For me that work is worth it, I'm doing everything with foot controllers and the keyboard in my profile pic. I will confess to being a bit extreme in that I want to never ever touch my computer on stage, but so with so many electronic musicians who appear to be simply checking their email at gigs I run the other way. I still have the 'Hey Look At Me' disease of a singer even though I only do instrumental music these days. 

[Danny Wyatt]

Thanks again for your valuable feedback. Good to have some extra info.

Will definitely check the MacBook Air option and see how it goes, before buying a new interface for now.

[dmitch57]

One easy way to decrease latency is to increase sampling rate. Double the sampling rate (e.g. from 48 KHz to 96 KHz), with the same buffer size, and you cut latency roughly in half.

[Danny Wyatt]

47 minutes ago, dmitch57 said:

One easy way to decrease latency is to increase sampling rate. Double the sampling rate (e.g. from 48 KHz to 96 KHz), with the same buffer size, and you cut latency roughly in half.

But does this apply to MIDI as well? Because from what I read, latency when it comes to audio is different from MIDI latency. At least that's what I read when reading about fixing latency by upgrading the interface. Someone said that the interface could only fix the recording and playback latency (meaning MIDI is not related). 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Danny Wyatt

[dmitch57]

20 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

But does this apply to MIDI as well?

It's easy enough to try and find out. How does it feel/sound when you double the sample rate? 

Some/all of the "MIDI latency" might just be an internal feature of the Alesis drums. I.e. a lag between the drum hit and the MIDI event sent over USB. There is nothing you can do about that, short of buying new drums.

[redgreenblue]

There is some latency built in to midi, there is no way to overcome that, but what you are talking about is the latency between the midi note coming in to Logic, the sound being generated by the software and then that sound coming out of the computer. 

Just to give examples of how latency can vary, here are the #s from various audio interfaces on my system, these are all the Output, not round trip, both their 64 and 128 buffers, 44.1 sample rate.

• Presonus Quantum 2626 (TB3) 1.8-3.3
• Motu 828MK3 Hybrid (USB2) 2.3-3.8
• X-Station (USB1.1) 4.5-6.0
• The audio built in the my TB4 Dock (TB4) 3.9-5.2
• 14" MacBook Pro M1 Max native audio 4.6-6.1 (my work M2 Air has identical #s) 

As you can see the clear winner is the 2626, but the MOTU isn't that far behind. However the TB4 dock is significantly slower than the 2626, so it isn't only the transmission protocol, and the native audio is the worst. I should add that the 828 and X-Station are both connected to a USB3 hub connected to the TB4 dock, the 2626 is connected straight to the computer.

[Danny Wyatt]

I'm aware that there's always some latency, but my issue right now is that in order to have a lower latency such as this:

the CPU meter keeps going to the "red" and then I hear crackles and once in a while a drop in sound that comes in like 1-2 seconds later.

So I would guess that a faster computer would allow me to use a buffer size of 128 or maybe even 64 or 32, without the noises and issues I'm having, right?

A buffer of 128 or 256 is already pretty noticeable when I'm playing drums. If it's a keyboard, not an issue for me, but drums, since you end up playing super fast things, it makes a big difference.

So my question related to the sample rate is: would this be a good option to get rid of the crackles and drops in sound, since the issue is the CPU not being able to handle all the processing, or would it make it worse since I'm doubling the sample rate?

[Danny Wyatt]

I'm not playing drums, I just have a simple riff with a bass and piano using 2 instances of Sampler and I have this:

Buffer set to 128, sample rate set to 88khz

[redgreenblue]

Well, yeah, you are asking a lot of that old machine. On any intel machine I had I could never use anything less than 256 as my buffer, usually I had 512. With an 11 year old i5 with only 8 gigs of ram you are going to see performance issues with any heavy plugin, even more so with your sample rate set to 88.2.

yes, any M1-M2-M3 is going to give you sooooo much more power and give you more options.  

[Danny Wyatt]

1 hour ago, redgreenblue said:

Well, yeah, you are asking a lot of that old machine

I'm the boss, so... haha

 

1 hour ago, redgreenblue said:

even more so with your sample rate set to 88.2

Yes, that's why I was confused on how doubling the sample rate would help with my issue. 

 

1 hour ago, redgreenblue said:

yes, any M1-M2-M3 is going to give you sooooo much more power and give you more options

Can't wait!

[Dewdman42]

the buffer setting is a "number of samples" setting.  So obviously if you double the sample rate you are cutting in half the length of time that representes a certain buffer size.  which lowers the audio latency.  However it's not magic.  You will also increase CPU strain.  in my view there is not much difference between lowering the buffer from 128 to 64, vs doubling the sample rate at 128...the latter just ends up straining your system more then you really need to in terms of CPU.  

Obviously you need to lower your buffer to the smallest size you can get away with, without getting audio dropouts.  This will depend on your system.  

The audio interface can sometimes make a difference too in so much that some interfaces are more efficient at handling smaller buffer sizes and don't impose extra buffers, but honestly most interfaces today are pretty good and within a few ms of each other..  the problem likely has more to do with your actual CPU hardware limitations in terms of how small of a buffer can you get away with.

Midi latency is another factor, what are you using for midi interface?  it imposes some latency.

But honestly you should not really be feeling or hearing any problem at 10ms round trip latency..that is only 5ms+midi to your software instruments.  Trust me, you can't hear that.  If you have much more latency than that going in, then its most likely the plugins you are using in the project causing the problem.

Keep in mind that LogicPro is designed for mixing down, not live performance.  the currently selected track will be live, which means logicPro will reserve a thread for it to attempt to prioritize it.  Other tracks will be rendered ahead of time and other things with a lot of built in latency that you won't hear or detect.  Unless you have plugins on AUX and master channels...then you can run into some latency that for live use you should try to avoid.  Mainstage will have the same issue, but generally Mainstage is architected more with the mindset that all channels are live channels and need high priority CPU processing, and lowest latency possible.   Mainstage has a number of advantages.  

If you have backing tracks you need to play, then strongly consider using pre-recorded tracks, which Mainstage can handle.  If you absolutely must use MIDi tracks feeding live synth plugins because you want to be able to wank around on the mod wheel live as you feel it, I get it...then you would need to find a third party sequencer plugin to use inside Mainstage for the midi playback..its doable...  

but I don't think Mainstage will lower the latency that much compared to LogicPro, the main advantage of Mainstage for me is the ability to create set lists.

[Danny Wyatt]

50 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

the latter just ends up straining your system more then you really need to in terms of CPU

Yes, that's what I was thinking. If the CPU is already struggling with 44.1, it only gets worse if I double it, hence my confusion when that was suggested.

51 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

what are you using for midi interface

Not sure what you are asking... but my setup is just: Alesis drum kit > USB directly to the laptop, then the output is the M-Audio FastTrack Pro that I shared on my original post. Hope that answers your question.

52 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

But honestly you should not really be feeling or hearing any problem at 10ms round trip latency..that is only 5ms+midi to your software instruments.  Trust me, you can't hear that

As I mentioned, if I use a buffer at 256 or even higher sometimes, on a keyboard, not a big deal. As a drummer, I can definitely hear the latency with the Alesis. It's more of a feel, specially when I play some faster chops. It just feels off and I feel the need to constantly compensate for it. Maybe what's happening is that what I'm hearing/feeling is not the latency on the MIDI path, but the output after the plugins, if that makes sense? But yeah, I can definitely hear and feel it at 256 and up. 

57 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

If you have backing tracks you need to play, then strongly consider using pre-recorded tracks, which Mainstage can handle.  If you absolutely must use MIDi tracks feeding live synth plugins because you want to be able to wank around on the mod wheel live as you feel it, I get it...then you would need to find a third party sequencer plugin to use inside Mainstage for the midi playback

Besides the Alesis, I will need to be able to adjust synth filters, envelopes, LFOs, etc. Not on a lot, maybe 2-3 per song, just to make it less "computerized" and more "live" than a pre-recorded thing. So MainStage won't be an option, unfortunately.

I also think that the Drum Kit plugin is always a bit more CPU-hungry compared to other instruments.

I will try the route of having another computer, more powerful, see how that goes. If what I'm experiencing now is not super critical, I'm sure I will be ok with a faster and more powerful machine. And last resort, I can always dedicate that new computer just for drums and my current laptop for all the synths and all that other stuff.

[Danny Wyatt]

By the way @Dewdman42 I started a new topic about the Alesis and Scripter and you seem to be the person to maybe give me a hand with this, since you're the Scripter expert.

I was able to go from 4 Scripters to 2, but now I can't merge those 2 and I would like to have everything together to avoid extra plugins and to make it easier to manage it. Do you mind taking a look? Thanks!

 

[Dewdman42]

5 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

Not sure what you are asking... but my setup is just: Alesis drum kit > USB directly to the laptop, then the output is the M-Audio FastTrack Pro that I shared on my original post. Hope that answers your question.

the Alesis is a midi drum kit I take it?  Is that doing both audio and midi or just midi?

does the Alesis drum kit have a standard midi interface on it, or just USB?

So if the Alesis is causing midi latency through USB, there is nothing more you can do about that, but that is difficult to diagnose.  what you have to do is put a microphone next to one of the drum pads and record that audio along with the midi into logicPro and see if they line up.  if they don't line up then you have to figure out why.  if the midi is always late behind the recorded audio then you know it has midi latency.

You may get better midi performance with a higher end midi interface and using a std midi cable between the Alesis and the higher end midi interface..or it might not make any difference at all, you have to test and find out if the Alesis is causing midi delay, which it very well might be.  or might not.  seems like they would want it to be pretty tight, but if its using generic USB driver, then who knows.

5 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

As I mentioned, if I use a buffer at 256 or even higher sometimes, on a keyboard, not a big deal. As a drummer, I can definitely hear the latency with the Alesis

I totally hear you, well first you have to eliminate all other possibilities to figure out what kind of latency you have.  You have a lot of moving parts and you have to actually measure it.  the latency you feel may or may not be related to the buffer size.  I would say if you are sensitive to 5-10ms and you are sure you are sensitive to that length of time, then you have to find a way to use smaller buffer sizes, but you may have to upgrade your computer in order to do that.

You need to determine if your latency is caused by midi, audio or plugins.  Measure them one at a time to find the culprit.  But once you get below 10ms RTL, its very very hard to get the latency any lower then that and usually rather expensive FWIW.  This is just a fact of working with digital audio.

5 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

 

It's more of a feel, specially when I play some faster chops. It just feels off and I feel the need to constantly compensate for it. Maybe what's happening is that what I'm hearing/feeling is not the latency on the MIDI path, but the output after the plugins, if that makes sense? But yeah, I can definitely hear and feel it at 256 and up. 

I am sensitive to it also around 256 so I totally get it.  Keep in mind that drummers are used to being right next to their sound device.  A guitarist, for example could be standing 10 feet in front of his guitar cab, and that introduces 10ms of sound delay right there.  People just get used to this.  I don't like it either though so I totally get you.

5 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

Besides the Alesis, I will need to be able to adjust synth filters, envelopes, LFOs, etc. Not on a lot, maybe 2-3 per song, just to make it less "computerized" and more "live" than a pre-recorded thing. So MainStage won't be an option, unfortunately.

MainStage is still an option, but you have to use a third party sequencer plugin to drive the midi.  Otherwise you can do all those things in MainStage too, maybe even better because you can create one panel for each song with exactly the knobs you think you want to twist in a live show.  But anyway, I still think most people try to over engineer this aspect of live performance and make it too complicated and error prone by trying to keep live midi synths from a sequencer going.  The sequencer is sequenced, so why not sequence the filter twirls?  the audience won't give a grap or care either way, there is nothing about a midi track that will seem more live to an audience.  They want to watch real musicians playing some instruments, singing...so get some of that in there.  if its a pure midi sequenced background, then the audience will not care one bit whether its a recorded mp3 or a midi track that you happen to be twisting some knobs occasionally.  it will feel more alive to you, but the audience will not really know the difference either way and you just end up with a much more complicated rig to do such a thing, with little added benefit, IMHO.

If you create a performance by using a loop pedal or something that is a form of performance that the audience can appreciate, but personally I don't think most people have any idea what  DJ is doing when they twist knobs or really care... They want to hear goto music, they want to see some live performance of singing or playing instruments, they want to see you moving around with the music and setting the vibe...beyond that you can create an illusion with sequencers or recorded tracks and they will not be any wiser about what is live and what is not.

5 minutes ago, Danny Wyatt said:

I also think that the Drum Kit plugin is always a bit more CPU-hungry compared to other instruments.

If you are using extra plugins for compression and what not they could be adding latency.  get rid of those for live use.  period.  find all plugins in your mix with any latency and remove them. The drum kit itself is probably not adding any latency.  if it uses a lot of CPU, then it might reduce your ability to use a buffer setting of 64 or 128 though.

 

[redgreenblue]

11 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

MainStage is still an option, but you have to use a third party sequencer plugin to drive the midi.  Otherwise you can do all those things in MainStage too, maybe even better because you can create one panel for each song with exactly the knobs you think you want to twist in a live show.

This is true, there are plenty of ways to setup controllers for this in MainStage, and unless you want the ability to change the arrangement of the song in real time (extend sections, etc) you could bounce the audio down to multi track and still manipulate things. Even with synth plugins that have all the control I need I still use the AutoFilter plug in for real time manipulation, and you can apply that to audio tracks to change them in real time. 

I will disagree, with respect, with Dewdman in that Logic is an *awesome* live tool, it just takes some environment knowledge. My ability to build songs on stage and make the show very live is super important to me. It is also important to me that there is the possibility for things to go wrong, otherwise it doesn't feel like a live thing. Don't get me wrong, I am an absolutely insufferable baby after the show *if* things go wrong, and I practice the crap out of it to reduce the risk as much as I can, but otherwise I'd feel like it is one step above miming. I do have some very strong feelings about the over reliance of playback with 'live' music these days. I call it 'The Stroke Test', as in, if the performer were to have a stroke on stage and couldn't use one of their arms would it make ANY difference to what I'm hearing? 

[redgreenblue]

On 12/18/2023 at 2:48 PM, Danny Wyatt said:

I will have controllers and my Alesis drum kit and for loading new projects, I will always have to "touch" the computer anyway. I guess the MacBook Air seems like a good option. I have this guy who sold me a second hand laptop that I still have and he's always buying new ones, fixing them, etc, so maybe I can even ask him if he's got any Air for sale.

 

Actually, no. You could do this with any controller that can send a CC command and Keyboard Maestro. I use the Morningstar MC-8 foot pedal for this, it has 40 banks and each bank can have 2 pages of 8 presets (it is a foot switch with 8 buttons) My Bank of Banks has the songs I want to play, so whatever preset I hit on that bank will send a CC command to Keyboard Maestro on my Mac, KM converts the CC in to keyboard commands, those commands close the current project, wait a second (you can program pauses) then launch the project that I want. You can even program enough of a pause in to have it finish loading the project and have it start playing. I don't do that, instead I also have the MC-8 triggering samples on my iPad running Loopy Pro while the song loads. I hate hate hate talking on stage. The MC-8 can also send straight keyboard commands, it is a GREAT device. Anyway, once the song is loaded (which is sooooooo much faster on modern Macs that it is always finished way before the sample I have playing ends) I can then hit Play (or Record) with the MC-8. This reads as complicated, it isn't. I can help you with it if you want to try that route. 

This lets me play any song in any order I want and never touch the computer. Who wants to futz with the trackpad and find something on stage? Not me. 

[Danny Wyatt]

Thank you all for the feedback. I will first focus on buying a new machine, see how it goes. Then I will check MainStage to see if that could eventually be an option for what I want to build.

[Danny Wyatt]

Update

The Drum Kit plugin, by default, creates all these different busses for each piece, with some plugins on them, some sends as well.

Today I deleted all of them and just kept a single channel strip like this:

Huge difference, even with the buffer at 128! I went from the CPU meter acting crazy and being always peaking the top, to this:

I still feel the latency while I'm playing, but at least there's no cracking and no issues. Gotta try and see how low I can go with the buffer.

EDIT: Tried with 64, it also works, no cracking. Tried at 32 (during playing of something I recorded) and I start to notice some clicks here and there so I guess 64 is the safest value. Now, this test was just with the DK, now when I start adding other instruments I probably won't be able to get away with 64, but at least it's a step in the right direction!

My next step is to see if any of those busses are really necessary and if not, delete them, at least when I'm using this for a live performance scenario. If I'm in the studio I can use this simplified version to record and once it's recorded, increase the buffer size and load the version with the individual pieces.

At least, with the current computer I have, it's a light at the end of the tunnel. Still want to upgrade the machine though.

I also noticed something super weird when I was messing with the full version. At one point I had one track with a compressor activated, but when I deactivated it, there was a huge noise, like a super loud semi-distorted sine wave at a high pitch. It was the only track with that issue, all the other tracks had no plugins at all. Any ideas what could cause this?

Edited December 21, 2023 by Danny Wyatt