ADLondon Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) Hi, me again!! Am I right in saying since Apple added Region Gain as a tool, there are now THREE DIFFERENT audio levels to watch for? (Not counting Flex Pitch waveform-bar gains) I thought the Region and Tool gains were the same - but they're not... see screenshots. ('Irrelevant' in the pic, refers to the fact there are Region volumes separate from the Track one, (and that's what I'm really asking about) not that the volume isn't relevant, because of course I realise it is to the sound level of the track ☺️) Edited February 22 by ADLondon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution David Nahmani Posted February 22 Solution Share Posted February 22 Yes well there are actually more than this if you consider relative and trim automation, gain plug-in automation etc. The Gain tool adjusts the gain parameter of the audio region itself (in the Region inspector) so it's not automation per se, it's just one fixed value for the entire length of the audio region and it affects the volume at the source (before all the Audio FX inserts). Region and Track automation affect the position of the volume fader on the audio channel strip (after all the Audio FX inserts). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 22 minutes ago, ADLondon said: Am I right in saying since Apple added Region Gain as a tool, there are now THREE DIFFERENT audio levels to watch for? No you aren't because Region Gain was available in much earlier Logic versions already (don't remember when exactly they introduced it), the gain tool is just a way to easier access the region gain by graphically editing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 25 minutes ago, ADLondon said: I thought the Region and Tool gains were the same - but they're not One of your screenshots shows Region Volume automation, and one shows (static) Region Gain, these are quite different things really (see David's answer above) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADLondon Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 (edited) 21 minutes ago, David Nahmani said: Yes well there are actually more than this if you consider relative and trim automation, gain plug-in automation etc. The Gain tool adjusts the gain parameter of the audio region itself (in the Region inspector) so it's not automation per se, it's just one fixed value for the entire length of the audio region and it affects the volume at the source (before all the Audio FX inserts). Region and Track automation affect the position of the volume fader on the audio channel strip (after all the Audio FX inserts). Well yes plus the relative etc... I remember now, why I didn't like doing region automation haha. Hard to know at a glance where you are with it! But ahhh of course, before and after channel strip inserts... Makes sense. Ok... s'long as I know... 🙂 Cheers, @David Nahmani 5 minutes ago, polanoid said: No you aren't because Region Gain was available in much earlier Logic versions already (don't remember when exactly they introduced it), the gain tool is just a way to easier access the region gain by graphically editing it. @polanoid Sorry, yes I realise setting the track to region (for region gain Volume) was introduced a long time ago... I mean the Region Gain Tool being the latest addition. But as David says, it's not really 'region gain' it's waveform gain - But with the benefit of it being non destructive, which is nice 🙂 Edited February 22 by ADLondon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADLondon Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 And I think my terminology was also messing me up. It's Track Volume automation (which is post ch strip) Region Volume automation (which is post ch strip) Region Gain Tool automation for waveform gain (which is pre ch strip) Plus the relatives and Flex bits... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 34 minutes ago, ADLondon said: I realise setting the track to region (for region gain Volume) was introduced a long time ago... I mean the Region Gain Tool being the latest addition. That's not what I meant. The Region Gain value has been accessible a long time already (via the Region Inspector) and has e.g. always been used for non-destructive Region normalize, the Gain Tool only makes it easier accessible. Doesn't change its functionality though. Screenshot video from 10.5 attached... Edited February 22 by polanoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Yes, that's exactly it. FWIW I rarely use region automation for volume. And I try to not mix up region and track automation for the same parameter on any one track. I know there are settings to give priority to one or the other but for my personal workflow it's much easier to never have to deal with both on the same parameter on the same track. Keeps it simple, and honestly I've never been in a situation that would justify using both on the same parameter, same track. I'm not a big fan of the relative and trim automation either, I never really liked how they were implemented in Logic Pro and I rarely use them. I do most of my volume work with regular track automation and region gain. Region automation I use mostly for applications that are closer to a musical performance than a mixing task, for example filter cutoff automation over a synth riff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADLondon Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 2 hours ago, polanoid said: That's not what I meant. The Region Gain value has been accessible a long time already (via the Region Inspector) and has e.g. always been used for non-destructive Region normalize, the Gain Tool only makes it easier accessible. Doesn't change its functionality though. Screenshot video from 10.5 attached... Ah ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADLondon Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 2 hours ago, David Nahmani said: Yes, that's exactly it. FWIW I rarely use region automation for volume. And I try to not mix up region and track automation for the same parameter on any one track. I know there are settings to give priority to one or the other but for my personal workflow it's much easier to never have to deal with both on the same parameter on the same track. Keeps it simple, and honestly I've never been in a situation that would justify using both on the same parameter, same track. I'm not a big fan of the relative and trim automation either, I never really liked how they were implemented in Logic Pro and I rarely use them. I do most of my volume work with regular track automation and region gain. Region automation I use mostly for applications that are closer to a musical performance than a mixing task, for example filter cutoff automation over a synth riff. I agree 100% with that methodology, @David Nahmani. I put it down to being a bit of a control freak. I like to SEE what the volume is doing at all times... With region gain, it makes the waveform bigger (and louder of course) so you can see it - and track automation, visible all the time gives you your confirmation of what the overall (and fader) level is doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakobP Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 6 hours ago, David Nahmani said: Region automation I use mostly for applications that are closer to a musical performance than a mixing task, for example filter cutoff automation over a synth riff. Personally, I'll never use region automation, even for that, until they make it possible to filter out fader data in the event list... Edited February 22 by JakobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogNZ Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 After having spent several hours/days looking at the depths of Track & Region Automation, I reckon that Region Automation is redundant - I cannot see a valid or useful reason why they have implemented it in the first place. And as far as offering both the Event List Editor (which does not include Track Automation!), then tacking on a well-hidden (CMD-CTL-E) Automation Event List editor to make up for this fact of not being able to view Track Automation in the Event List editor.....! Anyone out there able to convince me of the value of Region Automation? 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 1 minute ago, TheDogNZ said: Anyone out there able to convince me of the value of Region Automation? 🙂 Let's say I have a synth riff with filter cutoff automation that is part of the musical performance, and I want to use that riff in different places in my arrangement, be able to copy it, loop it, etc... that's when I'll use region automation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogNZ Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 3 minutes ago, David Nahmani said: Let's say I have a synth riff with filter cutoff automation that is part of the musical performance, and I want to use that riff in different places in my arrangement, be able to copy it, loop it, etc... that's when I'll use region automation. Ahhh, yes, of course. Even though there's a "Move Track Automation With Regions" switch, which would effectively do the same thing, having Region automation allows you to "stamp" regions with certain automation that you wish to remain when copied, regardless of track/instrument. Thanks for clarifying that, @David Nahmani 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 3 minutes ago, TheDogNZ said: Even though there's a "Move Track Automation With Regions" switch, which would effectively do the same thing Not when looping regions as in the screenshot I posted. For that, region automation is really the only appropriate tool. You can even continue to edit the automation in the original region and have all the loops reflect your edits. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 On 2/23/2024 at 12:10 AM, JakobP said: Personally, I'll never use region automation, even for that, until they make it possible to filter out fader data in the event list... Have you already reported this as a feature request via Apple's feedback page? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 45 minutes ago, TheDogNZ said: a "Move Track Automation With Regions" switch Just try that when moving regions around a lot and look at your track automation afterwards... RBA is a lt more convenient in that case. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 1 hour ago, TheDogNZ said: Anyone out there able to convince me of the value of Region Automation? Its beauty is that you don't have to use it, so if you think it's redundant for your workflow, just use TBA. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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