Logic vs a "real studio"

[Ket]

Right, i'm confused, (a bit hmmm?) and just plain... Don't Know?..

 

Now logic is meant to be a PRO application.. great, i got it, I'm recording stuff, and it's all good...but i'm not a professional recording engineer so i have understand my limitations...

 

ok.. Photoshop, indesign and Illustator PRO software too.. i use it ALL day everyday...for a huge range of clients....same sort of budget, same sorts of "level or professional software" right?...

 

SO IS LOGIC PRO actually A PROFESSIONAL recording software (i'm talking about with it's built in effects and processors - compressors and eq and the like)

 

now lest take Daft punk for example.. a DIGITAL electronic dance duo... great music, yes lots of samples...

 

just started reading stuff about "how they made the music, and what they used" they have SO MUCH outboard gear?... and this compressor that "gate" that "desk" so on and so forth? (I have NO idea how to use such things, let alone any dreams of budgeting for such things... not in my immediate interests....)

 

So basically...they make "electronic dance music" (ok bad pigeon holing...but just go with it for the sake of debate)

 

 

So my question:

 

COULD I (the average home user, not a pro engineer) REALLY MAKE an album with LOGIC PRO (7 or 8) with it's inbuilt processors and software tools (compressors and eq) of similar quality????

 

Or am are people who have this impression just being really naive and buying into something it's not?...

 

Thanks for your input and ideas....

 

ket

[Spectacle]

The simple response: yes. Not only can home/project studios create truly professional work with Logic, but it has already been done by a bunch of major artists: Logic entirely in the box.

 

There's a big debate amongst audio professionals, semi-pros, and prosumer types about the relative merits of digital vs. analog gear, from synths to compressors to EQs to amps and amp sims. But it comes down to particular sounds you like, not "professional quality" at this point.

[Roger Paolo]

read this: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov06/articles/scissors.htm

 

some outboard gear has been used, and live instruments, but the most of it was produced in Logic.

[BetaControl]

my take on this is you can make pro music in the box but i dont relly justtt on the included suite and instruments logic provides you want a more PRO sound get the best sounding virtual synths theres just certain plug ins third party that "sound" better than the stock plug ins but thats with anything cars computers etc you can get a 300z but if you upgrade the exhaust it will perform better than stock you just gota get good tools but i always say in the end no matter how bad ass the DAW car or computer is its whose behind the drivers seat that makes it to the finish line a winner.

[Eric Wikman]

I think it's 95% the song, the vibe and the performance.

 

They used to say the difference between a demo and a pro recording was compressors & good usage of them.

Now everybody has compressors... so get writing.

[rmaclema]

Logic is good enough for Peter Gabriel...

[marcel72]

Depends on the music style, too...

 

Funny that you use the example of Daft Punk, cos electronic based music can usually have the best chance of sounding OK on a software-only rig, IME...

 

But would Led Zeppelin IV or the White Album or even OK Computer have sounded the same with amp modelling, sampled drums, plug-in processing and digital summing? Probably not. Given the engineers (probably the most important factor, as BetaControl has pointed out) who worked on those records, they probably could have sounded pretty 'pro', but they wouldn't be classics in my eyes.

 

I think computers as a recording medium have begun, in the last decade, to equal the sound of analogue tape. High quality A/D/A conversion sounds good, and could potentially sound even better in the next few years (DSD looks promising). But beyond that, I think digital technology has a long way to go.

 

And, once again, just because Nigel Godrich can make it sound good on a computer, doesn't mean that any of the rest of us necessarily can. If you put most home studio owners in a great room with gobs of the best mics, pre's, and outboard available, a great desk, and a great 24 track 2" machine, I bet the results they would get would be roughly equal to what they do at home. In the end, it's about knowing how to use it.

 

When you have a classic pop or rock album - classic like Rumors, or The Joshua Tree, or Exile on Main Street - that has been entirely created in the digital realm, you let me know...

[marcel72]

Logic is good enough for Peter Gabriel...

 

Yeah, but not his engineers. Key difference.

 

Peter Gabriel uses Logic as a writing tool, and then the finished stuff gets tracked and mixed on a bunch of the most expensive, high-end outboard available.

 

Like 99% of all successful records.

[humberto]

Right, i'm confused, (a bit hmmm?) and just plain... Don't Know?..

 

Now logic is meant to be a PRO application.. great, i got it, I'm recording stuff, and it's all good...but i'm not a professional recording engineer so i have understand my limitations...

 

ok.. Photoshop, indesign and Illustator PRO software too.. i use it ALL day everyday...for a huge range of clients....same sort of budget, same sorts of "level or professional software" right?...

 

SO IS LOGIC PRO actually A PROFESSIONAL recording software (i'm talking about with it's built in effects and processors - compressors and eq and the like)

 

now lest take Daft punk for example.. a DIGITAL electronic dance duo... great music, yes lots of samples...

 

just started reading stuff about "how they made the music, and what they used" they have SO MUCH outboard gear?... and this compressor that "gate" that "desk" so on and so forth? (I have NO idea how to use such things, let alone any dreams of budgeting for such things... not in my immediate interests....)

 

So basically...they make "electronic dance music" (ok bad pigeon holing...but just go with it for the sake of debate)

 

 

So my question:

 

COULD I (the average home user, not a pro engineer) REALLY MAKE an album with LOGIC PRO (7 or 8) with it's inbuilt processors and software tools (compressors and eq) of similar quality????

 

Or am are people who have this impression just being really naive and buying into something it's not?...

 

Thanks for your input and ideas....

 

ket

 

YES, YES you CAN make PRO music with logic 7, but not logic 8

 

as you see, APPLE removed sync to external beat clock in logic 8, so you can not sync it to MIDI hardware and sync the LFO's and appregiators the use so much in dance music.

 

so YES, logic 7 is the pro app, logic 8, they toy for bedroom producers.

 

Logic is good enough for Peter Gabriel...

 

which logic? because 8 hasnt gotten the best reviews.... for all we know, people might be dumping logic in search of an application with a future.

 

lets not use famous artist and such as poster boys for logic, Lets not use logic's glory days as means to justify its purchase today as logic 8.

[Musicianista]

Zzzzz...

 

Zzzzz...

 

Zzzzz...

[Spectacle]

Pay no attention, everyone, that's all Humberto ever says on these forums.

[Ket]

Hi guys,

 

 

thanks for the replies, and I hope that this question (that has blatently been asked before) is still getting bounced around - will one day be answered (but hey... how many sides does a sphere have )

 

I had my last album / EP recorded in Logic pro 7 (but at a pro studio with some pro outboard gear...) this was nearly a year and bit ago.. and at that time i had NO idea about mixing and recording and DAWs and so forth....so i had no real idea of what i was looking for...

 

I've just started to record our new material (at our home "studio") ... after reading about it, and learning a little... I'm now using

 

Logic pro 7, mac book pro, saffire pro io10, samson mics for the drums, and a rode nt2a for the acoustic guitars and vocals ...

 

 

We're still recording... so we'll soon see the difference.. i'm trying to not to set my self up for a fall...in terms of being disappointed... as mentioned... so many people have recorded in Logic.."in the box"

 

BUT then it seems that to get it to sound like a (perceived) "commercial quality" release (and i know that's a whole new debate)...the material (from logic) is run through the best pro outboard gear with the worlds BEST sound-engineering technical minds....

 

hard to tell...i'm jsut trying to keep my eye on the songs...

 

HEY, you can listen to my last EP at :

 

www.myspace.com/TheMusicClinic -

 

we're now trying to "add some grit"

 

surprisingly, that EP was a case of "the best take" down to track - no over dubs or drop ins really..., and very little vocal comping (had no time and budget ) but again...recorded in a "pro studio" with some good outboard gear, then mixed in another studio with some good outboard gear....

 

cheers, and keep the opinions and advice flowing... as i think that maybe a lot of people will gain form it

 

 

thanks

 

KET

[lwilliam]

You can give a guy a $400 saw and a $75 hammer, but will he be able to build you a house? There are many skill sets needed to produce "professional-quality music." The tool you use is only one of them.

 

LP8 certainly is capable of doing that - in the right hands.

[liquidlogic]

Now I am not flaming you but I will throw this back to you. If your a "Professional Engineer" I would hope that you could look at a product and its specs and tell if its a Pro app and can perform the basic specs that a Pro App can.

 

So here is the question for you. As a Professional Engineer do you think LS8 and its features can do what you do in the studio?

 

I say only to a point. your gear is only as good as your skills and your ear a pro engineer knows this.

 

Not flaming you or anything

good question

[sondod]

Show me a $499 studio and then we can talk about comparison.

[calvin200001]

Humberto... lol

[marcel72]

Show me a $499 studio and then we can talk about comparison.

 

Hahaha...

 

Yeah, great point. A $499 analogue rig is still a Tascam Portastudio and an SM-57...

 

I used to work sessions on 2" tape, where the media costs alone would be more than that...

[robgb]

Someone said that 99% of all professional records are mixed in expensive studios and I'm afraid that's a bunch of b.s.

 

99% of the crap that the big ass record companies PUSH on us may have been recorded and mixed with high-end gear in pro studios, etc., but those aren't the only professional records out there. There are independent artists who are producing wonderful, PROFESSIONAL material in home brew studios.

 

That said, let's think about this a minute. The Beatles recorded Sgt. Pepper on a 4-track, using technology that most of us would laugh at today if found it in a studio. Yet you can hold the sound of that album up against anything recorded in pro-studios today and, thanks to the material, the performances, the artistry and the ear for production, Sgt. Pepper will win.

 

In the 80's, Eurythmics recorded Sweet Dreams on a home 8-track -- a song that went on to define their career and make a significant mark on the record industry at the time. And it still holds up today.

 

Every bit of gear The Beatles and Eurythmics used in their time can now be topped by inexpensive DAW's like Logic coupled with low-cost outboard gear. Young artists today are creating work in their own bedrooms that can easily go up against the highest end studio product out there.

 

The key, of course, is talent. If you have the talent and the ear for production, then the answer is an unqualified YES, you CAN produce professional, competitive material using only Logic.

 

If you don't have the talent, then all the whiz-bang bells and whistle high-end equipment in the world will not help you.

[liquidlogic]

Someone said that 99% of all professional records are mixed in expensive studios and I'm afraid that's a bunch of b.s.

 

99% of the crap that the big ass record companies PUSH on us may have been recorded and mixed with high-end gear in pro studios, etc., but those aren't the only professional records out there. There are independent artists who are producing wonderful, PROFESSIONAL material in home brew studios.

 

That said, let's think about this a minute. The Beatles recorded Sgt. Pepper on a 4-track, using technology that most of us would laugh at today if found it in a studio. Yet you can hold the sound of that album up against anything recorded in pro-studios today and, thanks to the material, the performances, the artistry and the ear for production, Sgt. Pepper will win.

 

In the 80's, Eurythmics recorded Sweet Dreams on a home 8-track -- a song that went on to define their career and make a significant mark on the record industry at the time. And it still holds up today.

 

Every bit of gear The Beatles and Eurythmics used in their time can now be topped by inexpensive DAW's like Logic coupled with low-cost outboard gear. Young artists today are creating work in their own bedrooms that can easily go up against the highest end studio product out there.

 

The key, of course, is talent. If you have the talent and the ear for production, then the answer is an unqualified YES, you CAN produce professional, competitive material using only Logic.

 

If you don't have the talent, then all the whiz-bang bells and whistle high-end equipment in the world will not help you.

 

OHH ouch did I hear that slap? did I hear the industry just a get a Biautch slap?

 

All I can say is "WORD"

[lordtom]

What is a real studio nowadays?

 

music factory?

 

Are those the ones going out of business?

 

I wonder why

 

Anyway, let me know so I can build a "REAL" studio.

 

Thanks

[humberto]

Someone said that 99% of all professional records are mixed in expensive studios and I'm afraid that's a bunch of b.s.

 

99% of the crap that the big ass record companies PUSH on us may have been recorded and mixed with high-end gear in pro studios, etc., but those aren't the only professional records out there. There are independent artists who are producing wonderful, PROFESSIONAL material in home brew studios.

 

That said, let's think about this a minute. The Beatles recorded Sgt. Pepper on a 4-track, using technology that most of us would laugh at today if found it in a studio. Yet you can hold the sound of that album up against anything recorded in pro-studios today and, thanks to the material, the performances, the artistry and the ear for production, Sgt. Pepper will win.

 

In the 80's, Eurythmics recorded Sweet Dreams on a home 8-track -- a song that went on to define their career and make a significant mark on the record industry at the time. And it still holds up today.

 

Every bit of gear The Beatles and Eurythmics used in their time can now be topped by inexpensive DAW's like Logic coupled with low-cost outboard gear. Young artists today are creating work in their own bedrooms that can easily go up against the highest end studio product out there.

 

The key, of course, is talent. If you have the talent and the ear for production, then the answer is an unqualified YES, you CAN produce professional, competitive material using only Logic.

 

If you don't have the talent, then all the whiz-bang bells and whistle high-end equipment in the world will not help you.

 

your wrong.

 

remember that back when the beatles and such were recording, the 8 track WAS cutting edge studio. It was the "high end"

 

you can not look at the beatles and what they used yesteryear and call it primative, and compare it to todays low end studio because it was high end at the time and out of the reach of the regular consumer.

 

more over, it would be like comparing old disney cartoon movies drawn by hand to todays computerized cartoons.

 

also, keep in mind all the computer is doing (and sometimes doesnt do a good job) is trying to emulate HARDWARE, and its NOT the same.

 

my old supernova II is discontinued and old, but it NEVER chokes or gives me CORE AUDIO overload messages.

 

Also, with logic, you never know what update will break what plugin, or if your project will get currupted, or if an update will make your songs "sound different" ( according to some, logic 8 sounds different then logic 7)

 

these things NEVER happen with outboard gear. outbaord gear will always be more proffesional.

 

remember that programs like logic, cubase, pro tools ,ect are just EMULATING outboard gear. All these compressors and such that come bundles with logic are just a cheap work around to outboard gear.

[robgb]

your wrong.

 

remember that back when the beatles and such were recording, the 8 track WAS cutting edge studio. It was the "high end"

 

you can not look at the beatles and what they used yesteryear and call it primative, and compare it to todays low end studio because it was high end at the time and out of the reach of the regular consumer..

Obviously, you're missing my point. YES, that 4-track was considered high end back then, but NOW, TODAY, it doesn't even come close to stacking up against a DAW like Logic. So considering what The Beatles were able to do with what we now consider primative equipment, imagine what someone just as talented could do today with Logic.

 

Outboard gear may well surpass anything Logic has to offer, but that wasn't the question asked. The question is, can we produce PROFESSIONAL QUALITY recordings in Logic, and the answer is YES.

 

There will always be better gear out there. Always be better methods. It all boils down to talent. And we could spend days comparing pro studio material against home studio material and in every single case that comparison would boil down to the content, not the technology utilized to produce it.

 

I've heard some truly horrifying songs that were very slickly produced in high-end studios. And I've heard some truly terrific stuff produced at home.

 

It's ain't the gear. It never will be.

[instantpop]

It's ain't the gear. It never will be.

 

Never any truer words spoken. Work with what you've got and if your music stinks, chances are it isn't the gear, the computer, the DAW, the plug-ins or the audio interface you're working with. All good and great gear does is improve on something and make an already good song sound better. Putting a Waves Limiter on a garbage song doesn't turn it into gold. You can't polish a turd, as they say.

 

Sadly, too many people look to lay blame or make comparisons rather than hone their songwriting skills. The answers are truly simple: if you don't like the DAW you've chosen, switch to another one or find another tool to use. Logic, Cubase, PT, Sonar, Garageband, whatever isn't to blame for writing bad songs. The songwriter is.

 

Fact of the matter is that the Beatles made great recordings with 4 and 8-track machines that sound better than most of the stuff people using Logic are making today. Why? Because the songs are good. The gear, to most, is completely irrelevant. Hey Jude sounds great to my father-in-law and he couldn't give a crap about how it was recorded - like most people.

 

True indeed, rob. True indeed. It ain't the gear.

[robgb]

And I forgot to add that when Eurythmics recorded Sweet Dreams, the 8-track was FAR from state of the art. Pro studios were well into 24 and 32 track machines at the time. So what Eurythmics did was considered very home brew -- trust me, I was recording on a Tascam 4-track back then and I remember all the home recordists cheering when Sweet Dreams made its mark.

 

Again, the point is the material, the talent, not the equipment used to capture it.

[marcel72]

YES, that 4-track was considered high end back then, but NOW, TODAY, it doesn't even come close to stacking up against a DAW like Logic.

 

In what way? Yes, Logic allows you a lot more tracks (duh!) and much easier editing... So what?

 

I interpreted the original question as being one of 'digital vs. analogue', not 'home vs. big studio'. In that way, the Beatles' environment at EMI (and other places) was very advanced... Typical sessions had Studer 4-track decks, an EMI tube desk, Altec and Fairchild dynamics, Neumann mics, etc... To this day, this stuff holds up as amazing analogue equipment.

 

You can't get that from a DAW. A DAW can be a part of that setup, but only a small part. And while I totally agree that the day of huge budget facilities is over (Muscle Shoals, the Hit Factory, Ocean Way... all closed), I still think good records mean good rooms and good analogue equipment. Doesn't really matter if it's in your house or on the moon...

 

Myself and plenty of the people I know and work with have what would be called 'home studios'. But they are home studio with real mixing desks, real compressors and EQs, real microphones and preamps. You're right, this environment can produce results equal to anything... Given some talent.

[prospect]

Logic Studio is only a tool.

Just like stuff in vintage studios are tools.

 

A tool is only as good as its user.

 

One of my favorite records of all time was done on an MPC, an ADAT deck (yuck)and a cheap rackmount delay unit.

 

That record is DJ Shadow's Entroducing.

That was one of the most important records of 1996.

Look it up.

[dragontheory]

Someone said that 99% of all professional records are mixed in expensive studios and I'm afraid that's a bunch of b.s.

 

 

 

You hear it time and time again!!!

 

 

You can have all the high end gear in the world.......and still produce a crap record! that sounds like s#!+!

 

its all about the song! period.

 

You write an amazing song ....it will sound good in garage band!

 

i have done it....

 

 

www.myspace.com/lcplum

 

all recorded on garageband....

 

 

 

werd.

[syncsailor]

keep in mind that you can buy a vintage Neve console and a 24track Studer machine and in most cases your "pro recording" is not going to sound ready for prime time unless you invest in outboard dynamics, reverb, and effects. because obviously it's not built into the board or the tape machine. ah... and if the genre calls for it, you're going to need to buy a sequencer and a computer to host it.

 

my only point is that if you view Logic as a sequencer/tape machine/basic console, and patch in the same outboard gear that is normally used with a pro mixing desk, the audio quality difference is not going to make or break the "professionalism" of the finished product.

 

just the way i view it in my world.

 

Tommy

[nikkik]

Logic Studio is only a tool.

Just like stuff in vintage studios are tools.

 

A tool is only as good as its user.

<<<<

Exactly!

 

You can drive yourself up a wall with all these things..

Is 96K better? Worth it? What about more than 24 bit? What about PT HD? RADAR? A Studer and a sweet desk? How about grabbing every piece of renowned gear?

 

Even if you had an unlimited budget, your idea of the best crew, and the best gear...what happens the year after when you change your mind? Does it make your art "less" somehow?

 

Yeah- neither will Logic..

Make music...express yourself...do your art. And make YOUR decisions as to what tools feel best in your hands, or in the hands of all involved if more than one person is involved. Learn...expand...evolve..express. Toilet paper and a comb is a professional instrument...in the right hands. I won't go further than that..lol..

[robgb]

In what way? Yes, Logic allows you a lot more tracks (duh!) and much easier editing... So what?

Exactly my point. So what? So what if you're using analogue or digital -- none of that matters. Analogue is not superior to digital nor vice versa -- it's all a matter of what you prefer, what sound, what work flow, whatever.

 

Again, the point is that you CAN make a "pro" sounding record if you have the talent to do so. And I don't just mean songwriting talent, as some here suggest. That's probably the most important ingredient, but one man's gem is another man's garbage.

 

You also need production talent. You need the ears. The ability to tweak those dials to make the song sound "pro" -- and that's no easy thing.

 

I'll never forget many years ago, doing a session in Emitt Rhodes's studio and watching as, in just seconds, he tweaked some EQ, added a little reverb and turned what had been a marginally listenable production into a polished gem. It was something I was unable to do, but he just had the ears for it -- after years of experience.

 

And if you don't know who Emitt Rhodes is, check out his pre-McCartney one man band albums he recorded in his parents' garage on an eight track. Amazing stuff. A natural born pop stylist who was doing pro stuff by the time he was sixteen.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emitt_Rhodes

 

rgb