Neil Gilmartin Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 Hello. I have drawn in automation to bypass a plug-in but the bypassing is not coming in at the correct time. For example, if I draw the node to bypass at bar 80, it is actually by-passing in the middle of bar 79. I should point out that I'm doing automation as the final step in the mix, so the mix is now quite heavy with plug-ins. I wonder if that's the culprit? I tried bouncing the file down because I thought, maybe if not being processed in real time, the automation will be accurate, but no - it still bypasses at the wrong position. Not sure how to solve this beyond going manual and using Latch mode? I'd rather not do this, however. Thanks for any advice that you may have 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 9 hours ago, Neil Gilmartin said: For example, if I draw the node to bypass at bar 80, it is actually by-passing in the middle of bar 79. Could you share a copy of the project so that one of us could try to reproduce this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scg Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 I'll add here that automation timing issues related to latency are a longstanding issue with Logic (I've encountered it many times). If you can't solve it in other ways, sometimes you can work around it by e.g. automating a plugin's mix rather than its bypass (there are other possible workarounds as well, although they may not be particularly convenient). Disclaimer: I haven't checked this behavior in newer versions of Logic, but I haven't seen any indication that it's changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 scg, I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone. It definitely seems to be related to how processing-heavy the project is. Another annoying thing is that there is sometimes a sound when a plug-in is bypassed, almost as if you can hear the 'off' button being pressed. I will give your workaround a try and let you know how that goes. David, the project is quite large, so I'm reluctant to share on here, but I'd be happy to pm share with you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scg Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 From my own experience, it's related to plugin delay compensation, and not necessarily the overall processor load. I'm confident of this because when I was investigating this, I was able to create simple, minimal projects that demonstrated the behavior. The trigger was simply a plugin with high latency, and not necessarily any degree of project complexity. But, once a project gets complex, it's probably more likely that latency issues may occur. You may already know all this, but in addition to the 'mix' trick, some plugins have their own built-in bypass that's designed for minimal artifacts (i.e. less chance of clicking/popping). Of course you may run into timing problems with that too. And of course there are all sorts of other workarounds you can try, like splitting things into separate tracks, each with its own processing, and so on. Anyway, yes, it's vexing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscwilde Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Does the project start at 1 1 1 1? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 (edited) Interesting question, oscwilde. I would have thought this is irrelevant because Bar 80 would remain Bar 80 (?) even if the project starts a few beats ahead of 1 1 1 1; but I'll check this out because, yes, the project does start a few beats before 1 1 1 1. Edited March 19 by Neil Gilmartin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscwilde Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 36 minutes ago, Neil Gilmartin said: I would have thought this is irrelevant Yep, not an unreasonable thought...😉 There's a known quirk (or bug, in some eyes) that "may" cause random weirdness with seemingly unrelated operations when the project doesn't start at 1 1 1 1. Unfortunately, there's no consistent set of conditions that can be applied as to when (or indeed if) this rears its head - hence it being a "known" thing, like opening two projects simultaneously - and avoided if possible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 OK, just changed project start to 1 1 1 1, and sadly the issue is still there 😂 I was so hopeful for a moment. Thanks anyway, though. That tip may yet come in handy in the future 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 5 hours ago, Neil Gilmartin said: David, the project is quite large, so I'm reluctant to share on here, but I'd be happy to pm share with you. If you can make a copy of the project, and in the copy, remove all tracks but the one that has that automation, then you can share that copy to see if we can help identify where the issue comes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 Sorry if I'm being slow, but it seems that the maximum file size for sharing is 1.95MB but even a compressed version of a basic project is 15MB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 OK, I've created a new project just with one piece of automation: bypass of a Decapitator plug-in on bar 4. As you'll see, however, the bypass actually happens before bar 4, not on it. And this is in a completely basic project with no other processing whatsoever. There must be something in my settings that's causing this, perhaps? Project.logicx.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Ok so I don't have that plug-in present but the bypass is being automated nonetheless on the channel strip, exactly at bar 4. I wonder if this is tied to the plug-in? Can you reproduce this issue with a Logic plug-in? My sample accurate automation setting doesn't seem to have an effect in this case but you could always try to set your as follow: Choose Logic Pro > Settings > Audio, Click the 'General' tab, Set Sample Accurate Automation to Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters. See if this helps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 (edited) Thanks for this, David. Yes, I did check whether I had that setting enabled, and I do also have 'Plug-in Parameters' enabled in the offending project; so that's not the issue. I've taken Decapitator out of the project and replaced it with the Logic Compressor. At my end, the compressor is bypassing too early just as the Decapitator plug-in was. Is that not what you're seeing? If you look, you can see the compressor plug-in switch to grey earlier than it should, and if you have the plug-in open, you can also see it bypass about a beat earlier than Bar 4. If that's not what you're seeing, that is spooky......... Project with Logic Compressor.logicx.zip Edited March 19 by Neil Gilmartin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Indeed the timing is perfect here. Can you try to create a new user account on your Mac, just so you could test this in that new user account and see if you can reproduce this issue there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankfield Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 The automation happens early on my Mac Mini i7. Screen Recording 2024-03-19 at 13.45.44.mov 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankfield Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 8 minutes ago, Tankfield said: The automation happens early on my Mac Mini i7. Screen Recording 2024-03-19 at 13.45.44.mov Same thing happens on my MBP M1. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 (edited) I'm relieved to hear this. It's just bizarre to me: such a basic automation task, on the most basic project you could have, and using only Logic stock plug-ins. I wonder if the solution is actually really simple and has something to do with a failure to enable or disable some feature in Project Settings or General Settings.......... Edited March 19 by Neil Gilmartin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scg Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 I tested with Logic 10.8.1 (in Rosetta mode), 2023 Silicon Mac mini, macOS 13.6.3. For me the automation seems to be maybe about 1/16 note early (maybe just a little less). I can hear the change just a little before bar 4, and then it also seems to unbypass a little before it cycles (I'm cycling the 6-bar region), creating a bit of a 'bump' at the cycle point. In my experience this is typically associated with having other, higher-latency plugins in the project, but it looks like you don't have any other plugins in the project here. Tried some different 'cycle pre-processing' settings, but no change. Tried changing some of the other 'usual suspect' settings (sample-accurate automation, etc.), but no noticeable change. When I've encountered this, the error has been larger, e.g. an 1/8 or 1/4 note at a moderate tempo. I suspect this was likely due to having higher-latency plugins in the project. I don't know if any of this will be useful to you, but those are my findings. I'm always happy to be wrong about this, but again, I've always found automation timing (and also timing with timeline-synced plugins like Step FX and ShaperBox) to be a weak point in Logic, and you'll find a fair amount of discussion about that on this forum and elsewhere. Anyway, I hope you can work it out, but you may have to find a workaround! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, Neil Gilmartin said: I'm relieved to hear this. It's just bizarre to me: such a basic automation task, on the most basic project you could have, and using only Logic stock plug-ins. I wonder if the solution is actually really simple and has something to do with a failure to enable or disable some feature in Project Settings or General Settings.......... That's why I suggested testing in a new account: the new account always has all defaults settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankfield Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 48 minutes ago, David Nahmani said: That's why I suggested testing in a new account: the new account always has all defaults settings. I tried a new user account and the automation occurred on time. Good call, David. Comparing my settings with the default ones in the new account revealed that the critical parameter was Multithreading in the Devices tab in the Audio settings. Once I selected 'Playback & Live Tracks' the automation worked as expected. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scg Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 45 minutes ago, Tankfield said: I tried a new user account and the automation occurred on time. Good call, David. Comparing my settings with the default ones in the new account revealed that the critical parameter was Multithreading in the Devices tab in the Audio settings. Once I selected 'Playback & Live Tracks' the automation worked as expected. That's interesting. I already had it set to 'Playback & Live Tracks' when I tested earlier. There I was getting maybe about 1/32 note of anticipation. If I change it to 'Playback Tracks', it worsens to about 1/16 note. So for me at least, 'Playback & Live Tracks' (which, again, is what I had it set to before) improves the behavior, but doesn't entirely fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gilmartin Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 I'm just catching up on everything after having a long sleep. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time not only to contribute to this post but even experiment with it themselves. Much appreciated! Yes, Tankfield, after changing to Playback and Live Tracks instead of just Playback, the automation comes in at the right point on the basic Logic file - and that's the case even with the 3rd-party Decapitator plug-in. On the much more processing-heavy project that I originally posted about, however, there is still a bit of a lag with some 3rd-party plug-ins even when using 'Playback & Live Tracks', but it is much reduced -and perhaps that is a price worth paying, as I can use the workarounds that scg mentioned. David, I will try creating a new account later and see what effect that has. Alternatively, would going to 'Settings', 'Reset All Settings Except Key Command Assignments' have the same effect? Cheers again, everyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 6 hours ago, Neil Gilmartin said: David, I will try creating a new account later and see what effect that has. Alternatively, would going to 'Settings', 'Reset All Settings Except Key Command Assignments' have the same effect? Not exactly as not ALL preferences are reset when you choose that reset function. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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