Which do you prefer for balancing levels in templates: gain tool or volume (or other)?

[JMComposer]

Apologies for asking two questions in a single day.  I recently discovered something remarkable - the Gain Tool, introduced back in Logic 10.7.5.   

THE ISSUE: 

Until now, I've always balanced the levels in my orchestral template through setting a starting level using Volume automation, like pictured below:

And now I'm wondering if I should redo my whole template and set all the Volumes at the same level and use the Gain Tool instead for balance: 

THE QUESTION: 

Do you prefer one or the other option, or maybe a third option?  Having all the volumes set at exactly the same level is appealing on some level: a Gain Tool that works "under the hood".  But is there a caveat to doing this, anything I'm not seeing?  

[des99]

3 minutes ago, JMComposer said:

Until now, I've always balanced the levels in my orchestral template through setting a starting level using Volume automation,

Locking in automation in the early days of a project is unnecessarily restrictive, imo. You're setting the volume levels and locking them in before knowing what they are going to be, and restricting the free, simple use of faders to for balances, which is what faders on channels were designed for.

However, there are many approaches to this, and if using a gain plugin on each track works for you, then go for it (and it means you're not locking down the faders).

Personally, I just use the faders to set my balances and I'm fine with that.

[JMComposer]

21 minutes ago, des99 said:

Locking in automation in the early days of a project is unnecessarily restrictive, imo. You're setting the volume levels and locking them in before knowing what they are going to be, and restricting the free, simple use of faders to for balances, which is what faders on channels were designed for.

However, there are many approaches to this, and if using a gain plugin on each track works for you, then go for it (and it means you're not locking down the faders).

Personally, I just use the faders to set my balances and I'm fine with that.

Thanks for your perspective on this @des99.  I see that you prefer settings levels on a project by project basis, considering factors such as the particular ensemble, the style of music, etc.  This is very flexible and great.  I usually do the same across different projects.

However, I'm making a single exception for my orchestral template, that is, to "standardize" my balance, akin to if I'm working with the same session orchestra across many orchestral pieces.  Hence, locking in the volume faders, by balancing all instruments against one another at their fortissimo dynamic, and using Violin 1 as the central reference.  

Having said that, I infer from your answer that the gain tool is conceptually sound in that it

1. balances the general volume of various instruments (esp. across different sample libraries) while it also

2. frees the volume fader to be truly used as a dynamic control. 

The gain tool is like the instrument's general volume, and the volume fader is like the player.  

So thank you again for this clarity.  

Edited April 10 by JMComposer

[des99]

Yes indeed. Maybe others have some additional workflow methods they like too, but in essence, you're using the gain plugin here as your mixer "gain" setting, to optimise the signal from the instruments before it hits the mixer proper. A lot of people do this.

[JMComposer]

@des99  Thanks alot.  I'm glad to be redoing my template based on the insights from our conversation.  

A little wrinkle: I'm discovering that decibels are not linear but logarithmic. My math knowledge is severely lacking, so my question is: if I want to keep the same loudness, can I change the Gain in the opposite amount as I change the Volume?  

So if I change my Volume from -6.0db to 0db, can change the Gain from 0db to -6.0db to make the loudness the same before-and-after?  

 

 

[des99]

1 minute ago, JMComposer said:

A little wrinkle: I'm discovering that decibels are not linear but logarithmic.

Indeed.

2 minutes ago, JMComposer said:

So if I change my Volume from -6.0db to 0db, can change the Gain from 0db to -6.0db to make the loudness the same before-and-after? 

Sure - in either case, it's a 6dB change. dB's are logarythmic (and essentially, relative - it means, change my signal level by 6dB).

[JMComposer]

@des99 Ah that makes sense, thank you sir.  I shall proceed accordingly. 

[polanoid]

Be aware though that the Gain is applied *before* the signal reaches the audio channel strip including all its processing, whereas the Volume fader controls the signal that's going *out of* the channel strip. Will make a huge difference with dynamics and saturating plug-ins inserted into the channel strip.

[JMComposer]

14 minutes ago, polanoid said:

Be aware though that the Gain is applied *before* the signal reaches the audio channel strip including all its processing, whereas the Volume fader controls the signal that's going *out of* the channel strip. Will make a huge difference with dynamics and saturating plug-ins inserted into the channel strip.

Ah, thanks for clarifying this important principle @polanoid. 

I'm now going through all my channel strips and switching things to make Gain the first plugin in the signal chain.   

[David Nahmani]

On 4/10/2024 at 8:20 PM, JMComposer said:

However, I'm making a single exception for my orchestral template, that is, to "standardize" my balance, akin to if I'm working with the same session orchestra across many orchestral pieces.  Hence, locking in the volume faders, by balancing all instruments against one another at their fortissimo dynamic, and using Violin 1 as the central reference.  

Have you considered adjusting the volume of each instrument at the source (inside each instrument's GUI)? 

I mean, if you know that a specific instrument should be soft for example, then it makes more sense to have the instrument play soft than to have it play loud and then use volume automation or a gain plug-in to turn it down.

[JMComposer]

20 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

Have you considered adjusting the volume of each instrument at the source (inside each instrument's GUI)? 

I mean, if you know that a specific instrument should be soft for example, then it makes more sense to have the instrument play soft than to have it play loud and then use volume automation or a gain plug-in to turn it down.

Yes, this is a fair point.  In fact, I do some adjusting of volumes within the GUI if I'm creating Multis (for example within Kontakt), and I need to balance the volumes of the various articulations within the Multi.  This is because in some sample libraries, certain articulations seem much louder or softer relative to the others.  

Here is a broad mind map that reflects the structure of my thinking at the moment:

Level 1: Balancing various articulations within a Multi - adjust within GUI

Level 2: The player's general loudness (how "strong" they are) - adjust with Gain

Level 3: The player's adjusting their own dynamics within phrases - adjust with a combination of Volume, Modulation, Expression

[DSKcomposer]

On 4/12/2024 at 10:33 AM, David Nahmani said:

Have you considered adjusting the volume of each instrument at the source (inside each instrument's GUI)? 

I mean, if you know that a specific instrument should be soft for example, then it makes more sense to have the instrument play soft than to have it play loud and then use volume automation or a gain plug-in to turn it down.

This thread is very timely as I am about to commence making an orchestral template using VSL Synchron libraries

According to VSL, their Synchron libraries were recorded in situ and are pre-balanced

So, if I were to change the volumes of each instrument within the player, would I not be messing with that balance?

 

[JMComposer]

Apologies for my delayed reply - Tax Day bit me in the behind. 

So @MusiquedeReve, that's an excellent question.  If you are satisfied with the balances of the articulations/instruments as they are within the VSL family, then there would be no need to mess with the balances within the player.  I haven't personally used the VSL libraries, but I'd surmise that if having pre-balanced instruments/articulations is one of their selling points, you wouldn't need to mess with that unless you specificially disagree with what has been done for you.  I use OT, and am frequently unsatisfied with the vast volume differences between articulations, so that's why I do it within the player.  

Now, I believe you can focus on balancing with other libraries using Logic's gain tool. 

[DSKcomposer]

5 hours ago, JMComposer said:

Apologies for my delayed reply - Tax Day bit me in the behind. 

That hit me in the feels

 

5 hours ago, JMComposer said:

So @MusiquedeReve, that's an excellent question.  If you are satisfied with the balances of the articulations/instruments as they are within the VSL family, then there would be no need to mess with the balances within the player.  I haven't personally used the VSL libraries, but I'd surmise that if having pre-balanced instruments/articulations is one of their selling points, you wouldn't need to mess with that unless you specificially disagree with what has been done for you.  I use OT, and am frequently unsatisfied with the vast volume differences between articulations, so that's why I do it within the player.  

Now, I believe you can focus on balancing with other libraries using Logic's gain tool. 

 

I do not currently plan on mixing libraries - I like to make a template for each developer - for my workflow, at least, I get in the zone where everything flows easier for me if my brain does not have to switch between libraries - the muscle memory of staying within one developer's orchestra really improves my speed (although, I wish I could somehow improve my creativity lol)

[analogika]

On 4/10/2024 at 9:11 PM, polanoid said:

Be aware though that the Gain is applied *before* the signal reaches the audio channel strip including all its processing, whereas the Volume fader controls the signal that's going *out of* the channel strip. Will make a huge difference with dynamics and saturating plug-ins inserted into the channel strip.

Wait — if you’re using the Gain plugin, the gain is applied wherever the Gain plugin is. If it’s the last plugin in the chain, that’s where the gain is. 

The only difference between a Gain plugin in the last slot and using the fader is that the plugin also affects what gets sent to an Aux bus, even when that is set to pre-fader. 

[David Nahmani]

12 hours ago, analogika said:

Wait — if you’re using the Gain plugin, the gain is applied wherever the Gain plugin is. If it’s the last plugin in the chain, that’s where the gain is. 

Yes, that's correct.

I believe that in the part you quoted, @polanoid wasn't referring to the Gain plug-in, but to the Gain parameter of the Region inspector (also affected by the Gain tool). 

[JMComposer]

16 hours ago, MusiquedeReve said:

I do not currently plan on mixing libraries - I like to make a template for each developer - for my workflow, at least, I get in the zone where everything flows easier for me if my brain does not have to switch between libraries - the muscle memory of staying within one developer's orchestra really improves my speed (although, I wish I could somehow improve my creativity lol)

Indeed @MusiquedeReve this is an excellent approach, in my opinion.  It's good to select an ecosystem, commit to it, know it well, and get busy composing (which is what really matters).  At times, the search for the perfect this, and the perfect that, is procrastination masquerading as productive work, of which I'm sometimes guilty.  

[polanoid]

17 hours ago, analogika said:

Wait — if you’re using the Gain plugin, the gain is applied wherever the Gain plugin is.

I'm referring to the Gain Tool, not the Gain plug-in

[analogika]

17 minutes ago, polanoid said:

I'm referring to the Gain Tool, not the Gain plug-in

Ah, in that light, your comment makes sense and explains my misunderstanding.
The OP talks about the "Gain Tool", but shows a screenshot of the Gain PLUGIN window. 

I assumed the subject was the plugin, which is under "Utilities" in the plug-in pop-up menu. That made sense to me, since he's talking about software instruments (EW orchestra), and I had absolutely no idea (until now, when I checked it) that the Gain Tool even works there!