frame rate hell logic 8 vs logic 7... help!

[bfrederick]

i could really use some help here...

 

we upraded to logic 8 because logic 7 doesnt have 23.976 frame rate.. but logic 8 runs like a dog on our machines... that and we just prefer to use logic 7, the program we've been using for years... long story short.. is there anyway to sync to picture with something thats in 23.976 to 24fps instead? how does the conversion go?

 

thanks !!

 

we're still scratching our heads as to how APPLE is counting things these days.. 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 oh wait... 8.0.. POOP.

 

why cant we just add the frame rate of 23.976 to LOGIC 7!!! we need more updates for 7 still!

 

8 does not work properly and i dont have time to wait for apple to add update after update over the next year.. i need an app as stable at 7.2 to score this film... and 8 isnt cutting it.

 

my deadline is jan. 1 and now im stuck with a DAW that wont work correctly on my system, and a 1k program that cant meet the needs that a proffesional demands.

 

its a headache.

 

help?

 

remember how i asked that question about frame rates earlier in the post and then started complaining? yeah.. im frustrated.. sorry. thanks for reading!

[marcel72]

Try something like this:

 

http://www.philrees.co.uk/products/tapesync.htm

 

I guess you'll also need a MIDI interface for Logic to read the incoming MTC, but those are easy to find:

 

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MTU2256

 

Don't know if your lock will be as tight, but it's worth a try.

 

Hope that helps.

[humberto]

i could really use some help here...

 

we upraded to logic 8 because logic 7 doesnt have 23.976 frame rate.. but logic 8 runs like a dog on our machines... that and we just prefer to use logic 7, the program we've been using for years... long story short.. is there anyway to sync to picture with something thats in 23.976 to 24fps instead? how does the conversion go?

 

thanks !!

 

we're still scratching our heads as to how APPLE is counting things these days.. 7.0, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 oh wait... 8.0.. POOP.

 

why cant we just add the frame rate of 23.976 to LOGIC 7!!! we need more updates for 7 still!

 

8 does not work properly and i dont have time to wait for apple to add update after update over the next year.. i need an app as stable at 7.2 to score this film... and 8 isnt cutting it.

 

my deadline is jan. 1 and now im stuck with a DAW that wont work correctly on my system, and a 1k program that cant meet the needs that a proffesional demands.

 

its a headache.

 

help?

 

remember how i asked that question about frame rates earlier in the post and then started complaining? yeah.. im frustrated.. sorry. thanks for reading!

 

We, along with others, share the same struggles with apple and the direction of logic.

 

I am glad you said it, because logic 7 DOES still need to be updated. But it wont be, because its all corporate now, and they are pushing logic 8 as a way to sell more hardware, and there is no way apple is going to update logic 7 now, it is the death of logic.

 

case in point, when apple switched to Tiger from panther, logic 6 worked on tiger but was not "supported" meaning use at your own risk, because apple doesnt care about US (the professional DAW community) Logic 6 had a metronome bug, but even that simple bug was never fixed, apple just pushed logic 7 on us.

 

so your fighting a losing battle of trying to have apple put a feature in logic 7.

 

It gets even worse now because logic 7 doesnt work on leopard. so we and many other might be using tiger for the next couple of years (if not forever)

 

I am tired of apples endless Operating System updates, and there meaningless logic upgrades. I have been using logic for over 10 years and have produced and mixdown many albums, and there is no way I am switching my workflow or will continue to support a company that just doesnt care about long time users. apple is more focused on getting new users.

[marcel72]

???

 

The guy's asking for help. He's got work to do. Go complain somewhere else.

[humberto]

???

 

The guy's asking for help. He's got work to do. Go complain somewhere else.

 

the guy said he has a $1000 brick called the apple computer and logic 8 with a deadline coming, I too can not use logic 8, for other reasons such as features from logic 7 being taken out of 8. but my deadlines are being met, because im using 7 still. but as you can see, apples logic 8 update is effecting all kinds of trades in the business.

 

I am audio, he is video, but we both share the same issues with the company, and it doesnt look pretty from a professional stand point.

[bfrederick]

hey guys, thanks for the support.. even its a pat on the back as our ship goes down flaming. i really dont want to shift platforms and/or DAWS, but this really sucks. we've invested something like 15K into apple and components only to get the shaft when we need the s#!+ to work. so yea.. he's complaining.. is he saying s#!+ that needs to be said..

 

 

yes.

 

 

yes he is.

 

 

thanks for the work around.. ill look deeper into it!

 

and thank you everybody who read this and responded.

[marcel72]

His concerns may be valid, but the blanket way in which he is presenting them, without any other participation in the discussions here, kinda puts me off...

 

I just realized that the workaround I linked above isn't going to convert SMPTE rates, it will just mirror SMPTE to MIDI, and it doesn't look to be capable of the frame rate you mentioned. A Google search for 'SMPTE frame rate converter' didn't come up with much, although I don't really know much about film or video other than the basics of how to sync audio to it.

 

What have you spent $15k on? A bunch of workstations? A big Apogee Symphony rig? How many stems and how many outputs do you realistically think you will need come mixdown time? You can probably see where I'm going with this...

 

Could one 'master rig' be made capable as a very stripped down 'playback deck' for work that was done on (an)other workstation(s)?

[Ashermusic]

I don't know what your machines are but logic 8 does NOT run like a dog here on my now lowly 2.0 Dual G5.

 

If you want the new frame rate you must move to L8. LP7 is now legacy software.

[marcel72]

I dunno.

 

I know some dogs that can run pretty fast...

 

LOL

[humberto]

 

If you want the new frame rate you must move to L8. LP7 is now legacy software.

 

 

thats why people are fed up with endless updates.

 

you want the new frame rate go to logic 8, but damn what if he needed midi clock, logic 8 DOESNT HAVE IT!!!

 

logic 8 is not a helpful update for users, its just a money making tool for apple. they could care less.

 

logic 7 to 7.1 to 7.2 to 7.2.3 to 8

[Beer Moth]

Now there's a novel concept!

A business that's in it to make money!

You never know,it might catch on.

[gsilbers]

2 things

 

 

1st. what going on with logic 8? it lags? I switched and performance wise it was almost identical.

 

 

2nd: 23.976 and 29.97 is the same SPEED. meaning its still NTSC. as long as it starts at the same time. (2 seconds before picture) then there is no difference besides getting different VISUAL numbers from the TC burn in and logic7 display.

 

 

if u have a session in 29.97 and export a stereo file into a 23.976 pro tools session and sync up the audio to video... it will not drift. it will be exactly in sync.

 

if its a short thing you can just place a 2 beep two seconds before picture starts or write down where different cues start and spot then later in soundtrack pro,logic8 or pro tools

 

but it all depends, what are you doing so we can give you more feedback

[ski]

I've scored several 23.976 films on Logic 7. At first it was no picnic, especially when it came to trying to establish tempo changes manually in the tempo window. And there's still no easy way to deal with this. But what I ended up doing was setting Logic to 24fps (just to be in the ballpark) but otherwise ignoring the BITC for most of my composing operations.

 

However, when it came to popping my cues and delivering them, I relied on the BITC exclusively for placing them. What's imperative here is that the placement of the pops coincide exactly with the leading edge of the frame you want to pop. This is achieved by first placing the pop at the desired frame according to the picture's BITC and then scrolling the bits value backwards in the SMPTE counter until that frame disappears. Then scroll the bits forward until it just comes into view. A little rocking back and forth of the bits value from there will eventually bring you to a value that's within 1 or 2 bits of the exact leading edge of the frame. (That tolerance is as accurate as you can possibly get in Logic 99% of the time).

 

Then I select my pop (audio) region on the pop track and use the "pickup clock" key command to precisely move that audio blip to the SPL. Now, of course, there's no guarantee that the pop will land on an even frame as far as Logic's SMPTE counter is concerned, but that doesn't matter in the least; as long as the pop(s) coincides with picture you will be golden.

 

I have to agree, it's the DAW crime of the century that Logic 7 wasn't actually fixed and that instead, L8 was issued. But from what I've come to understand via insiders, L7 was too broken to ever be fixed -- so broken that they had to re-write it from the ground up in order to fix it, and that "fix" is L8.

 

I had high hopes for L8, but clearly it hasn't been beta tested well enough or long enough. The company remains stone cold silent as to acknowledging bugs, let alone fixing them. Their bunker mentality has totally turned me off from the company, but I'm too invested in EXS samples and an 11-year-old workflow to switch to another DAW right now.

 

Anyway, if you have a specific operation you're trying to pull off in L7 at your 23.976 frame rate and having trouble, post back. Maybe I can offer some constructive workarounds.

[bfrederick]

thanks ski, i appreciate the constructive response. ive been getting quite a few 'philosphical' answers to questions that were purely technical. thanks for the work around idea. we're going to start working in 7 again and see how much headway we can make before we want to slash our wrists with firewire cables. jk.

 

 

thanks again, and ill keep you mind when things come up!

[ski]

Insomnia strikes, so I'll take the opportunity to write a few things...

 

In L7, Logic has no influence on the playback speed of the QT movie itself. If you're monitoring audio from the movie or otherwise extracting that audio into the arrange window, you really only need to ensure that Logic's sample rate is set to that of the embedded audio (typically 48K).

 

Logic's frame rate setting really only does one fundamental thing: math. Not playback speed of the movie. Setting the frame rate in Logic's tempo window provides a numerical basis for:

 

• Coordinating Logic's SMPTE counter readout with respect to the film's actual frame rate

• Coordinating any other displayed timecode values to jibe with the film's actual frame rate (including event position, event length, tempo event positions, movie start time, etc.)

• Allowing the SMPTE counter to correctly display dropped frames (i.e., 29.97d)

• Displaying the correct number of frames in any given second (note that HH:MM:SS are constant regardless of frame rate, except for drop frame calculations)

• Displaying the correct bit position at any given frame rate (bits are further apart in time at lower frame rates)

• Calculating the degree to which an event is shifted when using one of Logic's various 'nudge by' key commands (which is rife with problems, but that's another matter)

 

So, in short, you set Logic's frame rate to match that of the movie so that your timecode values all relate to the film's BITC. It's a display thing. Other than that, the frame rate setting has no influence on movie playback. So you could run a 29.97 movie within Logic while Logic is set to 24fps and your picture playback will be exactly the same as if Logic was set at 29.97fps.

 

The only time Logic has an influence on an aspect of movie playback is with respect to audio tracks embedded in the movie file. The parameter called "Contiguous Sync", accessible by click/holding on the L7 movie window, puts audio playback under the influence of Logic. Somehow. I still can't get my head around the purpose of this, even after all these years, but save to say that I always have this switched off. I'd suggest you do the same.

 

Oh, wow, the coffee's finally kicking in (it has the reverse effect with me when insomnia strikes). So I'm off to the land of nod. 8)

[taxiway01]

Hi there, funny how everyone seems to care only for the philosophical "truth" when somebody is only asking for a technical bit of help...

 

I'm a video editor, doing mostly compositing (this to underline the fact that I generally work on very short features, in PAL 25fps), and a recording musician. I work, among others, in Logic 8 and FCP.

 

I've never encountered your problem, but here's my 2c worth of advice: If logic can't work properly at a paticualr frame rate, I'd try to convert the fps rate of the reference (proxy) movie. Then when you're done (and have your client's final OK), timestretch your final bounce with the best algorythm you can find.

 

It wouldn't be but a workaround, I know, and I haven't tested it. But trying this won't cost but a few hours... besides, as somebody put it before, "pro" usually means trying to find ways to make tools work your way rather than endlessly whining about company policies we din't have a clue about.

 

Hope this helps, who knows... best,

[ski]

Converting the frame rate and then timestretching later? Really. Bad. Idea.

[marcel72]

Converting the frame rate and then timestretching later? Really. Bad. Idea.

 

If you convert the frame rate on the proxy (QuickTime) to something L7 likes, why would you need to timestretch? Couldn't you just bounce your audio out from a single start position (or a couple known start positions depending on the length of the piece) and then import those files into a PT or LP8 session that was running at the 'right' frame rate?

 

48kHz audio is 48kHz audio...

 

Not exactly an ideal situation, but seems more sound than timestretching.

[ski]

Changing the frame rate has implications that, I would think, make this an obviously bad idea. Sync issues across the board. Feel of the movie. Feel of the music. Creation of presentation movies with draft cues laid up to get approval from the director. And at the end of the day you're still not able to have the film's BITC correspond to Logic's SMPTE counter. You end up in the same boat, only with more problems to deal with.

 

However, this has got me thinking... I believe that FCP is capable of adding a timecode stripe of any frame rate to a movie regardless of the frame rate of the actual FCP session. I'm investigating now if it's possible to stripe a movie twice --- once at 23.976 (the production frame rate) and then again at, say, 29.97 fps (which Logic will like). If this is possible, then you could set Logic to 29.97 fps, and use the actual 23.976 BITC for the sole purpose of placing pops, for example. It would probably work like a charm if the t/c numbers were synchronized from the first frame of picture (so that both 23.976 and 29.97 fps stripes started at, say, 01:00:00:00 from first picture).

 

Or who knows... maybe this is a misguided idea too...

[fader8]

However, this has got me thinking... I believe that FCP is capable of adding a timecode stripe of any frame rate to a movie regardless of the frame rate of the actual FCP session. I'm investigating now if it's possible to stripe a movie twice ---

 

I'm sure this is possible. It's a matter of burning one to a rendered clip and then loading in the clip and burning it again at a different rate and different screen position. Haven't tried it, but I think it will work fine.

[taxiway01]

Marcel is right, actually you wouldn't have to timestretch it. Of course. My mistake.

 

Bit my point is, you obviously have a problem to make audio and video work together, and so far, nobody has a solution that can adress the audio side. So why not try to think of what can be done from the video perspective?

As for the "Feel of the movie. Feel of the music.": well... yes, the QT would probably be ugly and (maybe) not perfectly fluid. But... what about the feel of "having spent 15k for a non-working system"? Ain't that just a bit more of a problem?

 

Anyway, sorry is my idea doesn't make sense. Just trying to help!

[taxiway01]

Marcel is right, actually you wouldn't have to timestretch it. Of course. My mistake.

 

Bit my point is, you obviously have a problem to make audio and video work together, and so far, nobody has a solution that can adress the audio side. So why not try to think of what can be done from the video perspective?

As for the "Feel of the movie. Feel of the music.": well... yes, the QT would probably be ugly and (maybe) not perfectly fluid. But... what about the feel of "having spent 15k for a non-working system"? Ain't that just a bit more of a problem?

 

Anyway, sorry is my idea doesn't make sense. Just trying to help!

Edited November 28, 2007 by taxiway01

[marcel72]

Still don't know what the $15k was spent on. I suspect that only about $199 of that may actually be 'non-working' as you define it.

[dkgross]

trust me...timestretching to try and compensate for a frame rate mis-match is a BAD idea all the way around.

[ski]

The $199 works well at 23.976 fps. It's one of the oh-so-welcome features incorporated into L8. Logic 7, on the other hand, was never updated to accommodate this frame rate. Meanwhile, in the past 2 years or so, DP, PT, and (I believe) Cubase all incorporated this frame rate. This became a real sore point of L7 users, for despite the fact that Logic guys seemed to ignore their user base by allowing Logic to get from 7.0 to 7.2.3 with 99% of the most egregious bugs still intact, it was never updated to support what's become a de rigeuer frame rate.

 

OK, aside from that, the obvious question might be, "well, why not use L8 for the project, being that it supports 23.976?" That's a legit question, and one I'm asking myself too as I embark on a score for a 23.976 film. The glitch here is that L8 has problems of its own that need to be ironed out before I feel confident that I can score a feature-length film on it.

 

So for me, anyway, it becomes a matter of picking the lesser of two evils: use L7 and fudge timecode points, or, use L8 and worry about a new crop of bugs and other errant behaviors. According to a recent thread (maybe it's on this forum), once the time signature window gets filled up with time sigs, adding more starts to delete previous ones. Things like that... There's a similar problem in L7, where, after adding multiple time sigs, doing a routine edit and then hitting UNDO will irretrievably erase the time sigs.

 

Anyway, taxiway, apologies for coming down so hard on your idea. One other thing, just FYI... in reference to what you said about people not knowing about what goes on inside Apple re their policies... some of us here do know the "inside scoop" on Apple/Logic, and their policy of silence on matters of bugs and feature requests isn't just speculation. I don't think most of us would be here if we didn't love this program (or even love the promise of it), but their policy of silence --- to the point where Logic phone techs refuse to discuss bugs --- leaves a lot of us feeling completely hopeless while we struggle with our investment in learning curve, computer, sample libraries...

 

OK, enough of my railing about them. Let's discuss the timecode situation! 8)

[marcel72]

I think ski and fader 8 are talking about the same thing as I was suggesting, they just know how to do it properly.

 

Regardless, you will be composing in L7 with a compatible (yet bogus) frame rate, bouncing down, and then final editing / mixing in LP8 (or whatever) at the correct rate, no?

[gsilbers]

I think ski and fader 8 are talking about the same thing as I was suggesting, they just know how to do it properly.

 

Regardless, you will be composing in L7 with a compatible (yet bogus) frame rate, bouncing down, and then final editing / mixing in LP8 (or whatever) at the correct rate, no?

 

it is the best idea. compose in LP7 without caring about Fps and then importing it in LP8 for the sync still i suggest 29.97d) because its the tv standard in US. i dunno logic will change speed or modify its tempo but 25 is PAL speed and 24 is film while 23.98 is 24 progressive which is the exact same speed than 29.97.

 

then change to LP8 to sync it up correctly. but dont forget the 2pops at the begingi and end of the material.

[ski]

After giving it some thought, I think my idea of (even attempting to) have a QT movie striped with two different timecodes is a lamebrain idea. It could probably be done if the second timecode burn was added to a videotaped copy of the movie, but then again maybe not...

 

In short, there's no easy way to deal with L7 and its lack of 23.976 frame rate other than to write music without regard to the BITC. I've done it a bunch of times. There are ways (sometimes brute-force ways) to deal with it, all of them time-consuming, but do-able.

 

Now, as to working in L7 and mixing in L8 at the proper frame rate, there's no need. This much I've worked out. When you get a 23.976 film, the audio track will be at 48K. If that picture was pulled up or down in the process of making your 23.976 work print, it would still be 48K audio embedded in your movie file. If the audio was pulled up/down along with it and there was no temp music in the embedded audio track -- just dialog and SFX -- you will likely never know the difference between how the dialog and FX originally sounded before the pullup/down (the difference in pitch is negligible).

 

However, if there was any temp music in that track prior to pullup/down, it will be slightly out of tune (I think the figure is .01% one way or the other). That's something you may or may not hear, but it's worth noting.

 

But that's like a telecine thing... When I work on these indy films shot on DVX100's, the camera captures images at 29.97, audio at 48K. It's my understanding that upon transferring that footage to FCP that a pulldown occurs on-the-fly to the picture only. The audio remains exactly as it was -- 48K, no pulldown. So if you're working on a film shot on such a camera, or otherwise filmed at 24p and subsequently edited in FCP at 23.976, you can pretty much count on the audio sounding exactly as it did on location.

 

If you import that audio track into Logic, regardless of the frame rate of your Logic session, it will play back fine. As long as you pop your cues according to the picture's BITC, everything will remain in sync when those files are laid up into the editor's FCP session.

 

So what I'm saying is that there's no reason to go to L8 to mix at "the proper frame rate" because there's no advantage --- and no pullup/pulldown -- to take into account.