Chords and Song Structure

[SteveBrown]

For all those who play piano, and guitar or similar on their songs:

 

I was just wondering how you guys go about fitting chords to structure, in an interesting way. I know there are endless ways to go about it, but its interesting to see how people approach it

 

I struggle in situations where, for example, I want my verses to flow into my chorus

 

For example I am composing a folky rocky song with these chords:

 

verse : Dmin C Gmin C

Dmin C Gmin C

 

which leads into a chorus: C min Gmin7 Fmaj Gmin

Cmin Gmin7 Fmaj Amin

 

and back again.

 

I tend to sing words from other songs untill I come up with my own lyrcs just so I can make something that fits...

 

I keep trying but I never make something that I am happy with. Anyway how do you approach this sort of thing?

 

Thanks for listening.

[Fries]

Off topic from your original question but...

 

How do you know a progression like C min Gmin7 Fmaj Gmin

Cmin Gmin7 Fmaj Amin will sound consonant?

 

Circel of Keys? Trial and error?

[SteveBrown]

Off topic from your original question but...

 

How do you know a progression like C min Gmin7 Fmaj Gmin

Cmin Gmin7 Fmaj Amin will sound consonant?

 

Circel of Keys? Trial and error?

 

Just played the progression and thought it sounded good

[Subtonic]

Depends.

 

Sometimes I go by a melody in my head. That dictates what the progression will be.

 

Other times it's just from improvising on an instrument.

 

Very rarely is my creative thought filled with things like "Ok, now that I've reached the dominant chord I can either go to I or, hmm, maybe a DECEPTIVE cadence with the vi. Such artistic possibilities!"

 

That kind of analysis tends to happen after I've gotten some basic ideas down.

 

Maybe if I'm completely stuck I might look at some examples of progressions or chord use in a theory book I own.

[studio210]

For me, one of the most important things I ever learned was as follows.

 

I ii iii IV V vi vii (dim) VIII

 

Some may recognize that right away. Simply, the first, fourth, fifth and octave (of course) in any key are major chords. The second, third and sixth are minor and the seventh is diminished (and rarely heard in modern pop/rock music anyway, more of a jazz thing).

 

Once I get something going in a particular key I can work with that to put my structure together. From there, I love 7 chords (especially m7's) so I use them quite a bit as opposed to regular minor chords to add color. I also try other voicings or embellishments to see what fits and go with it. It's definitely a process for me.

 

I'm not very educated in theory, but I know enough to make it work. For lead work I stick mainly to the pentatonics, natural minor and phrygian modes. They work in most situations for me.

[DocBop]

For me, one of the most important things I ever learned was as follows.

 

I ii iii IV V vi vii (dim) VIII

 

Some may recognize that right away. Simply, the first, fourth, fifth and octave (of course) in any key are major chords. The second, third and sixth are minor and the seventh is diminished (and rarely heard in modern pop/rock music anyway, more of a jazz thing).

 

Once I get something going in a particular key I can work with that to put my structure together. From there, I love 7 chords (especially m7's) so I use them quite a bit as opposed to regular minor chords to add color. I also try other voicings or embellishments to see what fits and go with it. It's definitely a process for me.

 

I'm not very educated in theory, but I know enough to make it work. For lead work I stick mainly to the pentatonics, natural minor and phrygian modes. They work in most situations for me.

 

Now if you went to school where I did you would have to add to that the chord substitutions.

 

I its subs III and Vi.

IV it's sub is II

V it's sub is VII

 

So as my teacher would say using that to analyze or write every song in the world is some form of II-V-I.

 

Don't discount diminished chords, they are 7b9 chord without a root and as that are used all the time. Any note of a diminished chord can/could be the 3rd of a 7b9 chord. Occasionally you will see a functioning dim, but most the time it is acting as a 7b9.

 

So using your harmonized major scale, add in the substitutions, and easy to find chords for your compositions. The other thing I see used a lot these days is Parallel Keys. So if the diatonic chords don't suit your need then use the Parallel minors harmonized scale. So if in C Major try some chords from C minor.

 

Harmonized minor is Im7 IImi7b5 IIIMa7 IVmi7 Vmi7 VIMa7 VII7.

 

So hear songs in C major with Ab's and Bb chords that is where they are coming from.

 

Our ears are some much hipper than our brains in accepting stuff like this.

[Larry Mal]

I'm confused- do you want a bit of music theory sort of thing to compose with, or just some thoughts on composition?

 

You've got a perfectly diatonic piece there. Do you want that? What are you after as a composer?

[Larry Mal]

Or I should say, if you don't know: you're playing in the verse a vi-V-ii-V-vi-V-ii-V, and in the chorus you've got a V-ii-I-ii-V-ii-iii. The Major chords are in capitol numerals, the lower case are minor.

 

And it sounds good, and interesting no doubt. It's a good progression- have you tried playing it in a different key?

 

For instance- and I apologize if you already know this- in the key of A Major you would play:

 

Verse: F#minor-E Major-B minor- E Major-F# minor- E Major-B minor- E Major

 

Chorus: E Major-B Minor-A Major*- B minor- E Major-B Minor- C# minor

 

*This is the only time you actually are using the chord the key is based on here. And before anyone jumps my s#!+, I'm tired, and drunk, and I know there are other ways of looking at this progression. I may have made a mistake. But I know this is the easiest way of looking at the progression, if I didn't.

 

My point is to play the chord changes you have going, and understand that you have a great chord sequence working there, and if you want some rudimentary music theory I'll do that with you. If you don't already know it, that is, and I haven't insulted you. Let me know.

[Larry Mal]

And Fries, I can tell you how to know if anything will sound consonant. Let me get some sleep, and I'll post more tomorrow. It's not hard. But if you are interested, tell me a little more about yourself musically.

[Fries]

I often post on here drunk too and end up having to edit my stuff the next day. Or leave it and simply look like a fool.

 

Musically I'm limited to be honest. I know major and minor scales. I can't identify them by ear, but I know how to make many chords in those two scales.

 

I can play the bass guitar, and the keyboard slightly. Although I no longer own the bass =[

 

I do ear training regularly (that isn't really musical background). I close my eyes and run pink noise through my EQ and boost certain octaves, trying to guess which frequency i'm currently at.

 

I hope I've given you some information you were seeking.

 

You can hear some of my music at myspace.com/biggregfree

 

Sometimes it is sloppy, but sometimes i surprise myself. I like to work in electronica and dub styles.

[brentmagstadt]

Now if you went to school where I did you would have to add to that the chord substitutions.

 

I its subs III and Vi.

IV it's sub is II

V it's sub is VII

 

So as my teacher would say using that to analyze or write every song in the world is some form of II-V-I.

 

Don't discount diminished chords, they are 7b9 chord without a root and as that are used all the time. Any note of a diminished chord can/could be the 3rd of a 7b9 chord. Occasionally you will see a functioning dim, but most the time it is acting as a 7b9.

 

So using your harmonized major scale, add in the substitutions, and easy to find chords for your compositions. The other thing I see used a lot these days is Parallel Keys. So if the diatonic chords don't suit your need then use the Parallel minors harmonized scale. So if in C Major try some chords from C minor.

 

Harmonized minor is Im7 IImi7b5 IIIMa7 IVmi7 Vmi7 VIMa7 VII7.

 

So hear songs in C major with Ab's and Bb chords that is where they are coming from.

 

 

Newbie here... luvin LP, though it's way out of my league at the momento...

But...

Theory... I know and like.

 

The comment above is I think on the money, but I would add that - for me - the reason I dug into theory so hard was to be able to break the rules and have an understanding about why it worked.

 

In the end, however, it's the listener (or writers) ears that will determine if a progression or melody or whatever works. Theory is ultimately just a set of tools to use to move you to the next thing - whatever that is - should you need help getting there.

 

'course it helps a bit in reading charts, I admit.

;~)

 

-- b

[DocBop]

.

But...

Theory... I know and like.

 

The comment above is I think on the money, but I would add that - for me - the reason I dug into theory so hard was to be able to break the rules and have an understanding about why it worked.

 

In the end, however, it's the listener (or writers) ears that will determine if a progression or melody or whatever works. Theory is ultimately just a set of tools to use to move you to the next thing - whatever that is - should you need help getting there.

 

'course it helps a bit in reading charts, I admit.

;~)

 

-- b

 

Two quote come to mind...

 

First, "You have to know the rules in order to break them."

 

Second, "There are no rules, but there are expectations"

 

I agree the ear is what matters it is far hipper than are brains. Just think about symmetric root movement or clusters. On paper it would make theory teacher grab for the red pencil like lighting, but listen and the ear recognizes what's going on instantly and accepts it.

[Beer Moth]

The brains interpret what the ear picks up.

Without the brains you'd hear nothing!

 

I think you are confusing left and right brain functions.

Rational thought and language (off the top of my head! ) left side,music maths,aintuition etc right side.

 

Let go !

Use the force!

 

We've spent most of our existence relying on intuitive thought processes,only recently generally replaced by the left side as a result of the ubiquity of reading and writing language and the subsequent massive reliance on all things academic.

 

That's one of the reasons music appeals so universally in one or other form.

It speaks to and from the soul. 8)

 

The one helps the other.

When one side of your practice regime seems stagnant,the other can help progress and vice versa.

I wouldn't forsake any aspect in favour of another,they are all vital to achieve mastery,grasshopper!

[jackthe7th]

heres a checklist before you get too involved with things.

 

learn your chords

 

learn your modes.

 

learn you chord inversions.

 

learn common chord progressions.

 

conquer the world.

[Draw the Moral]

heres a checklist before you get too involved with things.

 

learn your chords

 

learn your modes.

 

learn you chord inversions.

 

learn common chord progressions.

 

conquer the world.

 

I would modify that list slightly...

 

Learn the major scale

 

Learn it in every key

 

Learn the all the chords within each key

 

Learn common chord progressions

 

Learn complex/extended/altered chords

 

Learn the modes

 

Learn how to fluidly apply all of this in as many ways as possible

 

Conquer the world.

 

 

But my point is, I agree...those are important.

[DocBop]

Better yet take Herbie Hancock's advice,,. modified a touch for the topic.

 

Learn everything you can, then forget it all and play.

[SwedeinLA]

Music is all in the ear of the beholder, but granted You could argue that a "hit" is often made up of things, sounding familiar, and "right" to the ear. I would suggest learning your DIATONICS.....

 

Lets take a C major chord for instance. If you play a c major chord, and I solo a c major scale, we'll get a very distinct sound. However, If you still play that same C chord, and I play an A Minor scale, which is exactly the same notes, only starting and stopping at the A (the 6th) you'll get awhole different vibe....WHY IS THAT? Because most likely you will phrase a c major lick WAY differently that you would for instance do a A minor (think 5th fret box, blues style lick.

 

Anywhow! Im digressing

 

 

Diatonics: each note in a a scale... c d e f g a b c have their own chords. C maj, D min E min f maj G maj A min B Diminished and back to C

 

so obviously if you play anything within the key of c, it will sound right.........(please add your input here)

 

That goes with soloing too. Its going to sound more interesting if you play a b diminished lick over a c major chord than a regular c major scale.

 

 

What can I say, its a lifelong quest music...it really is.

 

Good luck

[eh11canadian]

I'm probably less knowledgeable in theory. So I use my ears to build a song. It's worked for me and my band so far!

[JimmyDoorlocks]

So as my teacher would say using that to analyze or write every song in the world is some form of II-V-I.

 

Our ears are some much hipper than our brains in accepting stuff like this.

 

Ha, nice. Something about that Cmaj7 to EbMaj7 in Night and Day gets me every time. I remember asking why that sounded so damn good and that's how I learned all that. Going on that same song, doing the ii b5 totally messed me up in how music worked. Or same with tritone subs, our ears are much hipper haha. I gave up after school trying to do all this analytical crap, but now joining this forum it looks like I'll be back to it.

[JimmyDoorlocks]

I'm probably less knowledgeable in theory. So I use my ears to build a song. It's worked for me and my band so far!

 

Honestly, I hate on it a lot, but it is worth knowing. It's so easy, you can learn all this stuff in god, maybe 2 months of casual study. People pay thousands of dollars for that knowledge for a reason. Knowing that it's all "theory" and that the rules can be broken definitely has helped me in group situations, yet the deeper you get you realize your clever broken rule has a formal name haha.

 

But if you're like a guitar player or piano player, it really makes it so easy to express your ideas to the rest of your group in being like "here's some ideas" that you know will sound good no matter what, without even hearing them, instead of sitting there fingering all these things looking for the "right" note or whatever.

[emilya]

I think it's definitely worth familiarizing yourself with theory, especially if you want to use more complicated chord progressions. Before I took a lot of theory I tried just trying out chords by ear, and I came up with some cool things, but a lot of times that ended up making things more complicated than they needed to be and it was like I had three songs in one.

 

Personally, I've found that coming up with a steady rhythm and lyrics before you start putting chords together can be the way to go. Also I try to remember that a song doesn't have to have a million chords to be good. Until you are pretty good at phrasing and writing the melody, it might be easier to stick to theoretically easier progressions like I-iv-V-I. And move onto trickier things as that gets easier.

 

It sucks having to take a step back, but getting ahead of yourself can drive you insane. Btw-I have a bunch of snippets of songs on logic that sounded really cool/different and still haven't figured out what kind of melody to put over it. I put them away, work on other stuff, and come back with a different approach.

[Phrase]

Hi:

 

The posts from DocBop (... thank you...), inspired me to dig up some information sources which may be useful to others... they are a continuous source of insight for me.

.

http://www.oreshko.co.uk/lessons.htm

.

Jamey Aebersold - a pioneer in the (minus-one) music education play a-long method ...

.

" Harmonic Technique in the Rock Idiom "

... a book may be difficult to access ....

by Richard Bobbit , the then dean, berklee college of music

.

To me this area of discussion is the work of " life-times".

... don't hurry...

Edited October 18, 2009 by Phrase

[timmyk]

Always write the topline melody first and then find the suitable chord progression. Otherwise you will just be bumbling along with your instrument.

[route-electrique]

I love this thread. Thanks for everyone. Now, i can't afford teacher, but i would love to get some book suggestions ? .

[xanderdnb]

heres a checklist before you get too involved with things.

 

learn your chords

 

learn your modes.

 

learn you chord inversions.

 

learn common chord progressions.

 

conquer the world.

 

 

this is well said.... I am seeing so many people thinking that minor and major are the only two mode options.. thats like saying you can only be happy or, sad .The dorian mode is one of my favorites. Just take your major scale and drop the sixth. THATS WHY KIND OF BLUE by Miles davis was so popular, because he was one of the first to use this scale for the masses. great if you wanna get into jazz. oh and when your looking it up, dont forget melodic and harmonic minor

[xanderdnb]

this site is really good to keep your theory up

 

 

http://www.emusictheory.com/